pmang6's 9.1g Long V2.0: Bare and Brash

[pmang6]

Ok, so, I moved this tank into my Aquamaxx 9.1g "Long Cuboid" that previously housed a freshwater tank about three weeks ago. I'll talk about my future intentions for this tank in a bit but for now I want to get to the bottom of the issues I'm having, so let me give you the general details of the whole situation

 

Tank: Aquamaxx 9.1g "Long Cuboid"

Light: Agrobrite 24" two bulb t5 with ATI Coral+ and Blue+ (previously Current USA Orbit IC LED)

Heat: Eheim Jager 50w controlled with inkbird

Flow: Current USA 660gph Loop powerhead

Filter: Aquaclear 20 with carbon

ATO: XP Aqua Duetto

Rock and sand: ~5lbs of live rock and rubble from the 5.5g, a large piece of dry rock added during the upgrade and 10lbs+ of aragonite sand

 

Livestock:

7 misc acan frags (black friday is a cruel mistress)

1 toadstool leather

1 discosoma shroom

1 pandora paly frag

1 stylo frag

1 cyphastrea frag

2 Ricordea florida

 

Help!

Had a skunk cleaner shrimp but he was lost as a result of this bacterial bloom im facing. It has been going on for roughly a week now and it is not showing any signs of improvement, other than the fact that adding an hob with floss has cleared the water a bit. It isnt your typical cloudy water bacterial bloom, as it has formed a thick snotty white substance covering most of the rock work. I'm planning on doing the full suite of test at some point today or tomorrow, but for now I'll leave you with my current theories as to what could have caused a bacterial bloom like this to come out of the blue:

 

-I clean everything with isopropyl alcohol. I think there may have been a few drops left in the ato resevoir (5g home depot bucket) when I set that up. Could this be acting as a carbon source?

 

-Airborne contamination of some kind? The tank is open topped. 

 

-Another weird tidbit; 2 days ago I added some water and salt to my mixing bucket, which had about 2 gallons of sw sitting in it without heat or flow, in preparation for a water change the next day. I then turned on the pump and heater in the bucket and left things to mix for a full 24hrs. When I opened the bucket to check on it the next day, Lo and behold, there was a film on the surface, a milky haze to the water and strands of the same stringy white bacteria from the tank growing from the pump and heater's cords! I dumped the water, cleaned all the mixing equipment with 70% isopropyl (apparently a more effective disinfectant than the 90% i had been using) and mixed a new batch. This leads me to believe that my salt may have something to do with this. I use IO reef crystals which I store in a tupperware with a gasket seal. Ive considered changing salts, but Im not sure if its a good idea to switch to a salt with normal ocean water levels of ca, alk etc when I've been using the elevated level reef crystals so far.

 

I did a 50% wc last night and if anything, it seems to have made things worse. The water column is more clear, but there is much more stringy snot and it seems to be covering the corals to some degree. Up to this point, the corals didnt seem to be to heavily affected by the bloom; you could tell they weren't at 100%, but they weren't anywhere near showing skeleton, losing flesh, or even closing up. I'm going to wait until the lights come on, but if the corals start to look grim, I'm going to go for the nuclear option, tear everything out, dip it, rinse the entire sandbed and basically recycle the tank. I have no fish or complex inverts to worry about (aside from snails and a hermit which I have a plan for), I have no problem restarting things if its in the best interest of the tank. I'd rather nip this in the bud now than make it a drawn out process.

 

 

Anyways, thanks in advance for all the help guys, let me know what you think.

 

semi-current fts (just before last nights water change):

 

 

4/14 FTS:

[Christopher Marks]

@pmang6 You might consider dosing a 'probiotic' bacteria into your system to help combat the white slime. I used a Dr. Tim's waste away gel in my pico reef and it seemed to work over about a month, but I think dosing beneficial bacteria directly is probably a faster solution. Each water change I would brush off the white bacterial bloom with a tooth brush first and then siphon it out.

[pmang6]

4 minutes ago, Christopher Marks said:

@pmang6 You might consider dosing a 'probiotic' bacteria into your system to help combat the white slime. I used a Dr. Tim's waste away gel in my pico reef and it seemed to work over about a month, but I think dosing beneficial bacteria directly is probably a faster solution. Each water change I would brush off the white bacterial bloom with a tooth brush first and then siphon it out.

First of all, thank you for making this site! Been coming on here since I was 10 or 11 and now im 20 haha. Anyways, yea, everything I'm reading seems to suggest that something like microbacter or dr tims would be a good idea. Trying to figure out which one of the doctor tims products would be best. "Eco Balance" claims to fight "bad bacteria" which sounds nice, but "waste away" is the one i hear about the most. 16oz of eco balance is 6$ shipped on amazon right now so I think I'll give that a shot.

 

Had the nitrates and phosphates tested today at the lfs, both were non detectable. It makes sense because I feed this tank very sparingly (think a single tiny dose of reef chilli and a pinch of pellets once a week), and I was getting very little algae growth on the brand new rock on the right side of the tank. That thing has been in there for almost 3 weeks now and its still stark white. Weird.

[dp32713]

I have never delt with this issue with any of my tanks, so take my advice with a grain of salt lol. But I would definitely change salts if it were my tank as I am not a big fan of IO. Not saying you can't have success with that salt because you definitely can, I have used IO and RC in the past and while I have had decent results. The batches always seemed to provide inconsistent perimeters, usually on the high side. Also the salt tends to soak up moisture and clumps together in the bag more than some of the higher end salts, which I believe has an effect on the perimeters once mixed. Especially calcium and alkalinity due to precipitation once the water molecules interact with the salt in the bag. Maybe I'm wrong but thats just what I've experienced with those salts. I've used Red Sea coral pro and had good experiences, but recently I have been using the Aqua forrest salt and I really like how close it resembles natural sea water in terms of perimeters. 

 

If it were my tank I would try Dr Tims like @Christopher Marks recommended and couple that with more frequent water changes. 

[pmang6]

17 hours ago, dp32713 said:

I have never delt with this issue with any of my tanks, so take my advice with a grain of salt lol. But I would definitely change salts if it were my tank as I am not a big fan of IO. Not saying you can't have success with that salt because you definitely can, I have used IO and RC in the past and while I have had decent results. The batches always seemed to provide inconsistent perimeters, usually on the high side. Also the salt tends to soak up moisture and clumps together in the bag more than some of the higher end salts, which I believe has an effect on the perimeters once mixed. Especially calcium and alkalinity due to precipitation once the water molecules interact with the salt in the bag. Maybe I'm wrong but thats just what I've experienced with those salts. I've used Red Sea coral pro and had good experiences, but recently I have been using the Aqua forrest salt and I really like how close it resembles natural sea water in terms of perimeters. 

 

If it were my tank I would try Dr Tims like @pmang6 recommended and couple that with more frequent water changes. 

 

Yea, ive definitely noticed some clumping in my salt container with io, which is weird, because the container is airtight. Ive been eyeing accurasea1 from two little fishies. I like the idea of prepackaged 5 gallon packets and i also just like julian sprung haha. 

 

Went to a big box pet store yesterday and picked up some seachem pristine (a bacterial supplement with similar claims to dr tims; didnt want to wait another 2 days for shipping) as well as some carbon. Did a double dose of pristine and added the carbon before i went to work last night. This morning the snotty slime seems to be completely gone, but the water column is even more milky than before. I consider that progress i guess. 

[dp32713]

1 hour ago, pmang6 said:

 

Yea, ive definitely noticed some clumping in my salt container with io, which is weird, because the container is airtight. Ive been eyeing accurasea1 from two little fishies. I like the idea of prepackaged 5 gallon packets and i also just like julian sprung haha. 

 

Went to a big box pet store yesterday and picked up some seachem pristine (a bacterial supplement with similar claims to dr tims; didnt want to wait another 2 days for shipping) as well as some carbon. Did a double dose of pristine and added the carbon before i went to work last night. This morning the snotty slime seems to be completely gone, but the water column is even more milky than before. I consider that progress i guess. 

Sounds like progress to me. The carbon should help clear up that water, I'd also change out the floss more than usual. The slime was probably weakened by the pristine and is just waiting to be filtered/removed from the water through a few water changes.

 

I also like the idea of individual packages for the salt if you've only got the one nano tank. I just go through too much saltwater to consider those economical for my usage lol. 

 

This thread is LOADED with great information on different types of salts. It is 3 years old and I know its a possibility that the formulas have been changed by the manufacturers, but I still think it has a lot of useful information about the quality and composition of different reef salts out there. 

[pmang6]

So, the water has cleared up pretty well, but not completely. You can still see a slight milkiness swishing around, but overall much better than before. Ended up going to the new World Wide Corals Winter Park location today, picked up a Yellow Tail Damsel and a bag of Brightwell Neomarine salt, as thats what they use for their tanks and I'm ready to move on from reef crystals at this point. The damsel will likely be the only fish. Nutrients are undetectable in this tank and I think getting a fish in there will help me justify feeding more and hopefully getting those levels up. The corals I intend on keeping in this tank (acans, ricordea, gorgonians, acans, RFAs, acans. Did I mention acans?) are said to like "dirty" water. Reading this study thoroughly convinced me that I need to work on raising the nutrient levels in this tank.

 

Any advice as far as switching salts? Just do it a little bit at a time?

[pmang6]

Pics:

 

 

 

[pmang6]

Anyone got any handy simple ways to deal with surface scum? It gets thick on this tank and im concerned about gas exchange. 

[A.m.P]

Could grab a cheap $8 surface-skimmer pump from ebay.

[pmang6]

On 12/25/2019 at 12:03 PM, Amphrites said:

Could grab a cheap $8 surface-skimmer pump from ebay.

Im considering this, but im trying to avoid more equipment in the display. Shouldve built an aio insert for this thing.

[pmang6]

Ok, its been a minute, but I wanted to put up a quick update because ive changed a few things on this tank. 

 

Big changes:

 

1. Swapped the current led out for a t5 fixture. Wasnt happy with the spectrum or coverage of the current. Made some rather... industrial... custom hanging arms that ill have to take some pics of later haha. 

 

2.Changed to esv 4 part salt on the last water change. Mostly because tropic marin pro reef seems to have disappeared from most stores I trust, save for a few lfs that charge nearly double the price for it compared to online. Also, I liked the idea of a salt that mixes extremely clear in just a few minutes, and the idea of synthesizing perfect seawater from its constituent parts appeals to my inner chemist. 

 

3. Minor rescape (in progress😁)

 

Unfortunately the bacterial bloom issues I experienced months ago have become a recurring issue. At this point I believe the issue is caused by poor flow. The current usa pump gets clogged up incredibly fast. Think 2 or 3 weeks at best. Thinking about either a nero 5 or an mp10 to replace it. I was looking at jebaos and other stuff in that lower price bracket but I figure if I keep buying the economy option I'll keep getting what I paid for. 

 

Other than swapping the pump, i really want to let the tank run in its current state for a while. Just water changes and maintenence for a month or so. 

 

Oh and I returned the damsel to an lfs months ago after i caught him nipping one of my acans. 

 

I'll try to post some more pics tomorrow, thanks for looking everyone!

 

[pmang6]

So I'm getting some disconcertingly dino-like growth on the rocks and glass. It is brown and whispy, but lacks the bubbles that are supposedly a surefire sign of dino. Will have a video posted for id shortly. 

 

I recently got a phosphate test kit and it appears phosphate is undetectable. I know chasing numbers is bad, but I also know that having no phosphate is very bad for corals and seems to be a precursor for dino. Heres a fascinating study I read that proves without a doubt that phosphate is necessary for healthy corals: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X17301601?via%3Dihub

 

Take a look at this pic. (HP=high phosphate, LN=low nitrate and vice versa):

 

Of course, you cant compress an entire study into a single image, but this comes pretty close. Insufficient phosphate has a very obvious effect on the coral.

 

 

Something interesting to note: I have never had any green algal growth of any kind in this tank. I never ever get the typical brown/green dusting on the glass, rather a cloudy white biofilm. I have also had very little coral or coraline growth as of yet. Of course, things have been a bit rocky, and the instability probably has more to do with stunted growth than low phosphate, but I guess what I'm trying to say here is should I try to gradually increase phosphate in one way or another? I floated the idea of dosing Neophos, but that seems like a recipe for disaster, instead, I'm thinking I'll either add a fish or increase my feeding. The problem with those methods is that they will likely increase nitrate as well, which is an issue as I'm just now getting it down near 10-20ppm.

 

I know, I know, stability and patience, dont chase the numbers... I just really dont want to deal with dinos and itd be nice to see my corals actually thriving instead of barely eeking by.

[pmang6]

Video for ID. Sorry for my less than professional videography skills. The initial shot is of the brown stringy growth on the glass, which has gotten more widespread since i filmed the video yesterday. Next i look at the rocks. The fuzzy areas on the rocks do not blow away easily and they form a mat, almost like cyano but more... gel-like? and more solidly attached. Its hard to see, but almost all of the rock surfaces are covered in a dusting of this stuff.  I included the shot of the back of the tank to illustrate the total lack of algal growth. I havent cleaned the back glass in two months and there is nothing but a thin coat of biofilm.

 

https://vimeo.com/412128469

[pmang6]

Some more pics for reference:

 

 

[A.m.P]

Looks like chrysophtyes on the rocks, dinos on the glass.

[pmang6]

7 hours ago, Amphrites said:

Looks like chrysophtyes on the rocks, dinos on the glass.

 

Yep, I was just reading up on chrysos. Going to do a bunch of physical removal today with a water change. 

 

The brown stringy stuff seems to be expanding. Its now covering the zoa frags in my tank and they are closed tightly. Going to do the clumping test to check for dinos. 

 

[pmang6]

Ok, so after testing the brown stuff with the method from @mcarroll's famed r2r post on dinos, I do believe I am seeing the onset of a dino outbreak. This would make sense given my low phosphate reading and lack of other algal growth. 

 

I have no real means of nutrient export on this tank other than water changes and I dont want to suspend those because my nitrate is already on the higher end of things. Everything I'm reading tells me increasing phosphate is a good idea, but I know a lot of that is confirmation bias and I'm trying not to latch on to any one miracle cure. Thoughts?

[A.m.P]

5 hours ago, pmang6 said:

Ok, so after testing the brown stuff with the method from @mcarroll's famed r2r post on dinos, I do believe I am seeing the onset of a dino outbreak. This would make sense given my low phosphate reading and lack of other algal growth. 

 

I have no real means of nutrient export on this tank other than water changes and I dont want to suspend those because my nitrate is already on the higher end of things. Everything I'm reading tells me increasing phosphate is a good idea, but I know a lot of that is confirmation bias and I'm trying not to latch on to any one miracle cure. Thoughts?

Get your nutrient levels up 0.1 P04 and 10-15 N03 using something like seachem's flourish products, stop doing water changes for a month and when you resume do small amounts weekly, (you may need to dose two part in the interim) turn lights down 30% and cut an hour or two off the schedule, manual removal and be prepared for things to get ugly and take a long time to correct themselves. Adding pods and dosing phyto can help quite a bit.

N03 isn't particularly dangerous in marine settings, anything under 100 is suitable even for sps given time to adapt, fish won't be harmed and other corals can do fine over 150, if something is contributing a huge amount to your nitrate you may want to look for and address it rather than stripping your tank out with tons of waterchanges.

[pmang6]

1 hour ago, Amphrites said:

Get your nutrient levels up 0.1 P04 and 10-15 N03 using something like seachem's flourish products, stop doing water changes for a month and when you resume do small amounts weekly, (you may need to dose two part in the interim) turn lights down 30% and cut an hour or two off the schedule, manual removal and be prepared for things to get ugly and take a long time to correct themselves. Adding pods and dosing phyto can help quite a bit.

N03 isn't particularly dangerous in marine settings, anything under 100 is suitable even for sps given time to adapt, fish won't be harmed and other corals can do fine over 150, if something is contributing a huge amount to your nitrate you may want to look for and address it rather than stripping your tank out with tons of waterchanges.

 

I actually just got back from the lfs with a bottle of brightwell neophos. Going to dose until its detectable on my phosphate kit, instructions say 3.4ml to get to .1ppm. Running t5 so I'll take a couple hours off the timer.

 

As for manual removal, I've seen some people say that disturbing the sandbed can be a precursor for dino (surprise suprise, I had gotten into the habit of totally turkey basting my entire sandbed with each wc 🤦‍♂️) so I was wondering whether you think I should just leave the dinos on the sand alone or try to siphon them as well? 

 

Interestingly enough, I've actually witnessed this tank go through several boom and bust cycles of pods. At times they were everywhere and huge, the size of a cooked grain of rice, but now I'm struggling to find any. 

 

 I'm actually kind of optimistic because I've been perplexed as to why nothing would grow in this tank, and I seem to be onto something. Hopefully this will also eventually be the answer to my rather sad and stagnant corals. I dont mind letting things get grungy at all so long as I can keep my coral alive and eventually get them thriving and growing.

[mcarroll]

On 12/12/2019 at 2:04 PM, pmang6 said:

sounds nice

Everything that sounds too good to be true, is too good to be true.    For better or worse, there is no "good bacteria vs bad bacteria" battle going on.

 

On 12/12/2019 at 2:04 PM, pmang6 said:

Had the nitrates and phosphates tested today at the lfs, both were non detectable.

So nutrients were down to zero even back in December.

 

On 12/13/2019 at 10:27 AM, pmang6 said:

Yea, ive definitely noticed some clumping in my salt container with io, which is weird, because the container is airtight.

It's not a salt issue, but that is a semi-typical newbie misdiagnosis for many problems.  

 

Clumping is natural when hygroscopic salts (all salt mixes are hygroscopic) meet up with some humidity.  

 

Do a good job keeping humidity out, but it's not a real problem unless the salt actually gets wet....then you'll have a problem with Ca and Alk combining into chalk, which causes your saltwater to be lower in alk than it should be.  

 

Not a problem for 99.999% of reefers though....don't get put off by a little clumping.  (You can even add some seltzer water to your mixing bucket to get that chalk to re-dissolve in the event that you do have a real moisture problem someday.....so no worries!)

 

On 12/18/2019 at 7:03 PM, pmang6 said:

Reading this study thoroughly convinced me that I need to work on raising the nutrient levels in this tank.

Good find...from 2015 too.  Not one I've seen before....will have to give it a read later.

 

On 12/25/2019 at 11:03 AM, pmang6 said:

Anyone got any handy simple ways to deal with surface scum? It gets thick on this tank and im concerned about gas exchange. 

You don't have any filters on this tank, so you're going to have a slick at the top.   Filters we use often draw water off the surface....like the filter and skimmer than come with the Tunze Reefpack 100:

 

 

Comline® Reefpack 100

Either the skimmer or filter can be purchased alone, separately if you only want to use one.  (I'd pick the skimmer in that case...about $100.  The filter unit is about $50.)

 

On 4/14/2020 at 8:50 PM, pmang6 said:

Big changes:

Oh oh....

 

On 4/14/2020 at 8:50 PM, pmang6 said:

1. Swapped the current led out for a t5 fixture. Wasnt happy with the spectrum or coverage of the current.

For what reason?

 

How much did the lighting in the tank change?  (If you don't have a light meter, you can't answer this question.   Get a light meter.....a $7-$20 lux meter is fine.)

 

A very expensive way to light a tank...espeically when you already have a nice lighting system.  😉

 

Just to say it in case someone was thinking it:  The lights were not part of the problem.

 

On 4/14/2020 at 8:50 PM, pmang6 said:

Synthesizing perfect seawater from its constituent parts appeals to my inner chemist. 

ESV is nice, but all salt mixes make seawater from components.  

 

Remember how many nice tanks run the exact salt that folks so frequently complain about.  

 

Both facts can't be true...it can't be great for the people with nice tanks AND a real problem for the folks with problem tanks.

 

The salt is/was not the issue.

 

On 4/14/2020 at 8:50 PM, pmang6 said:

The current usa pump gets clogged up incredibly fast. Think 2 or 3 weeks at best. Thinking about either a nero 5 or an mp10 to replace it.

You think a more expensive pump is going to not get clogged?

 

Save your money.   That's not what you're buying for all the extra jing.

 

What you need is a second pump.  One pump is always a bad idea because it creates permanent dead spots.

 

Put one pump on each side of the tank and run them alternately using appliance timers.  Perfect flow every time – zero dead spots.  Don't even need a controller.

 

On 4/14/2020 at 8:50 PM, pmang6 said:

Oh and I returned the damsel to an lfs months ago after i caught him nipping one of my acans.

They are partly algae eaters...and your feeding regime combined with the tank's lack of algae probably was starving him.   IMO he was nipping for algae, not trying to eat coral (which they don't do).

 

He was honestly a little big for the tank anyway....you want true nano fish in here, if anything.  (No fish would be fine be me...but that's me.)

 

On 4/26/2020 at 6:19 PM, pmang6 said:

I recently got a phosphate test kit and it appears phosphate is undetectable. I know chasing numbers is bad, but I also know that having no phosphate is very bad for corals and seems to be a precursor for dino.

Bingo.

 

On 4/26/2020 at 6:19 PM, pmang6 said:

Heres a fascinating study I read that proves without a doubt that phosphate is necessary for healthy corals: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X17301601?via%3Dihub

 

Take a look at this pic. (HP=high phosphate, LN=low nitrate and vice versa):

I keep that article pinned to the top spot on my blog's front page.  👍

 

On 4/26/2020 at 6:19 PM, pmang6 said:

I floated the idea of dosing Neophos, but that seems like a recipe for disaster,

Based on the common knowledge in the hobby?  Yes.

 

Based on actual research?  No.

 

The only disaster that awaits re:phosphates is when the system runs down to zero.

 

On 4/26/2020 at 6:19 PM, pmang6 said:

The problem with those methods is that they will likely increase nitrate as well, which is an issue as I'm just now getting it down near 10-20ppm.

When did your nitrates do a reverse-course and go from zero to "high"?   On 12/12 they were zero.

 

On 4/26/2020 at 6:34 PM, pmang6 said:

https://vimeo.com/412128469

Looks like you have no cleanup crew.  If that's not the case, can you name what you have in detail?  If it is the case, why?

 

Can you get a microscope to look at a sample of what you have growing?

 

Even a toy $10 microscope is adequate – anything will work.

 

Otherwise you need to re-do the shake test to see if you're still growing Dino's or if it's something else now.

 

For the shake test (microscope is WAY better) take a sample of the algae and some tank water in a vial.  Shake it vigorously to homogenize it, then leave it under your lights for up to an hour or two.  Dino's will re-converge into a mass (for light protection) but other algae that look somewhat like them will not.  You still won't know what type of Dino's, which can make a big difference to the treatment.

 

7 hours ago, pmang6 said:

Everything I'm reading tells me increasing phosphate is a good idea, but I know a lot of that is confirmation bias and I'm trying not to latch on to any one miracle cure.

Depends on what you're referring to as "everything" – maybe stuff I'm not aware of.  

 

But if you're referring to my dino thread on R2R or any of the related material on my blog, it's not confirmation bias, it's fact/science-backed and based on practical experimentation with a sample-size in the thousands.  The only other component is you, and we'll get you there too.  😉

 

In fact, I made that thread to avoid having folks act based on confirmation bias as much as I could.....there's no solution to the dino problem given in the thread until you understand your tank AND the problem AND the solution.  Nobody should be dosing phosphates based on that thread unless they've got Dino's and often even know which kind.  The fix stems from ID of the type of dino.  (Not all are the same.)  👍

 

(Which is to say, you should digest the whole first post of that R2R thread, along with any links I posted there before proceeding if you haven't already.  Ask any questions you need to....here or R2R, but I'm only on here now.)

 

Having your nitrate levels elevated so far above your phosphate levels (in particular if PO4 = zero) is definitely a potential problem.   Especially for so long of a time period.

 

1 hour ago, pmang6 said:

I actually just got back from the lfs with a bottle of brightwell neophos.

Excellent!  

 

Could have been done months ago when you first noticed the zero nutrient situation on 12/12 tho.  

 

Not sure how I missed your thread for the last 4 months or I would have said as much....but in fairness to your own research, you had the clues and the answer (more or less) by 12/18.  Lack of confidence in your research is what let it go on so long.  

 

IMO, you need to trust your own research MORE and trust doubts/mixed signals/etc you receive from the hobby LESS.  👍
 

If you haven't already been to my blog (https://reefsuccess.com), I'd suggest checking it out for more research ideas....a whole mess of related stuff under the Nutrients and Coral sections.  Of course there's a section on Dinoflagellates too.  👍   (All tags, so some of the articles are grouped under more than one section.)

 

1 hour ago, pmang6 said:

I dont mind letting things get grungy at all so long as I can keep my coral alive and eventually get them thriving and growing.

It's not so much about "grungy"...that implies things that I don't think help with Dino's such as overfeeding.

 

Your corals have been starving for phosphate just like the Dino's have been.

 

IMO, dose your tank up to 0.10 ppm of PO4 as a minimum level.   Test and dose to keep it at/above that level just like you would do for alkalinity.  Do that until the tank does a real turnaround.

 

You might also need to install a decent cleanup crew....focus on herbivores (eg Turbo, Trochus, Astrea, Nerite, Cerith) and not on scavengers (eg hermits, and other snails).

 

That's a long post with a lot of points, so get back with me if you have questions or if I missed anything or got anything wrong.  👍

 

Again, sorry about not seeing this thread sooner.  Not sure why I missed it.  (Did the thread have a different title when it started?)

[pmang6]

36 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Everything that sounds too good to be true, is too good to be true.    For better or worse, there is no "good bacteria vs bad bacteria" battle going on.

 

So nutrients were down to zero even back in December.

 

It's not a salt issue, but that is a semi-typical newbie misdiagnosis for many problems.  

 

Clumping is natural when hygroscopic salts (all salt mixes are hygroscopic) meet up with some humidity.  

 

Do a good job keeping humidity out, but it's not a real problem unless the salt actually gets wet....then you'll have a problem with Ca and Alk combining into chalk, which causes your saltwater to be lower in alk than it should be.  

 

Not a problem for 99.999% of reefers though....don't get put off by a little clumping.  (You can even add some seltzer water to your mixing bucket to get that chalk to re-dissolve in the event that you do have a real moisture problem someday.....so no worries!)

 

Good find...from 2015 too.  Not one I've seen before....will have to give it a read later.

 

You don't have any filters on this tank, so you're going to have a slick at the top.   Filters we use often draw water off the surface....like the filter and skimmer than come with the Tunze Reefpack 100:

 

 

Comline® Reefpack 100

Either the skimmer or filter can be purchased alone, separately if you only want to use one.  (I'd pick the skimmer in that case...about $100.  The filter unit is about $50.)

 

Oh oh....

 

For what reason?

 

How much did the lighting in the tank change?  (If you don't have a light meter, you can't answer this question.   Get a light meter.....a $7-$20 lux meter is fine.)

 

A very expensive way to light a tank...espeically when you already have a nice lighting system.  😉

 

Just to say it in case someone was thinking it:  The lights were not part of the problem.

 

ESV is nice, but all salt mixes make seawater from components.  

 

Remember how many nice tanks run the exact salt that folks so frequently complain about.  

 

Both facts can't be true...it can't be great for the people with nice tanks AND a real problem for the folks with problem tanks.

 

The salt is/was not the issue.

 

You think a more expensive pump is going to not get clogged?

 

Save your money.   That's not what you're buying for all the extra jing.

 

What you need is a second pump.  One pump is always a bad idea because it creates permanent dead spots.

 

Put one pump on each side of the tank and run them alternately using appliance timers.  Perfect flow every time – zero dead spots.  Don't even need a controller.

 

They are partly algae eaters...and your feeding regime combined with the tank's lack of algae probably was starving him.   IMO he was nipping for algae, not trying to eat coral (which they don't do).

 

He was honestly a little big for the tank anyway....you want true nano fish in here, if anything.  (No fish would be fine be me...but that's me.)

 

Bingo.

 

I keep that article pinned to the top spot on my blog's front page.  👍

 

Based on the common knowledge in the hobby?  Yes.

 

Based on actual research?  No.

 

The only disaster that awaits re:phosphates is when the system runs down to zero.

 

When did your nitrates do a reverse-course and go from zero to "high"?   On 12/12 they were zero.

 

Looks like you have no cleanup crew.  If that's not the case, can you name what you have in detail?  If it is the case, why?

 

Can you get a microscope to look at a sample of what you have growing?

 

Even a toy $10 microscope is adequate – anything will work.

 

Otherwise you need to re-do the shake test to see if you're still growing Dino's or if it's something else now.

 

For the shake test (microscope is WAY better) take a sample of the algae and some tank water in a vial.  Shake it vigorously to homogenize it, then leave it under your lights for up to an hour or two.  Dino's will re-converge into a mass (for light protection) but other algae that look somewhat like them will not.  You still won't know what type of Dino's, which can make a big difference to the treatment.

 

Depends on what you're referring to as "everything" – maybe stuff I'm not aware of.  

 

But if you're referring to my dino thread on R2R or any of the related material on my blog, it's not confirmation bias, it's fact/science-backed and based on practical experimentation with a sample-size in the thousands.  The only other component is you, and we'll get you there too.  😉

 

In fact, I made that thread to avoid having folks act based on confirmation bias as much as I could.....there's no solution to the dino problem given in the thread until you understand your tank AND the problem AND the solution.  Nobody should be dosing phosphates based on that thread unless they've got Dino's and often even know which kind.  The fix stems from ID of the type of dino.  (Not all are the same.)  👍

 

(Which is to say, you should digest the whole first post of that R2R thread, along with any links I posted there before proceeding if you haven't already.  Ask any questions you need to....here or R2R, but I'm only on here now.)

 

Having your nitrate levels elevated so far above your phosphate levels (in particular if PO4 = zero) is definitely a potential problem.   Especially for so long of a time period.

 

Excellent!  

 

Could have been done months ago when you first noticed the zero nutrient situation on 12/12 tho.  

 

Not sure how I missed your thread for the last 4 months or I would have said as much....but in fairness to your own research, you had the clues and the answer (more or less) by 12/18.  Lack of confidence in your research is what let it go on so long.  

 

IMO, you need to trust your own research MORE and trust doubts/mixed signals/etc you receive from the hobby LESS.  👍
 

If you haven't already been to my blog (https://reefsuccess.com), I'd suggest checking it out for more research ideas....a whole mess of related stuff under the Nutrients and Coral sections.  Of course there's a section on Dinoflagellates too.  👍   (All tags, so some of the articles are grouped under more than one section.)

 

It's not so much about "grungy"...that implies things that I don't think help with Dino's such as overfeeding.

 

Your corals have been starving for phosphate just like the Dino's have been.

 

IMO, dose your tank up to 0.10 ppm of PO4 as a minimum level.   Test and dose to keep it at/above that level just like you would do for alkalinity.  Do that until the tank does a real turnaround.

 

You might also need to install a decent cleanup crew....focus on herbivores (eg Turbo, Trochus, Astrea, Nerite, Cerith) and not on scavengers (eg hermits, and other snails).

 

That's a long post with a lot of points, so get back with me if you have questions or if I missed anything or got anything wrong.  👍

 

Again, sorry about not seeing this thread sooner.  Not sure why I missed it.  (Did the thread have a different title when it started?)

 

First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to look at my thread and type out a full response. I was wondering if you'd chime in here and I'm so glad you did! Secondly, I'm not sure how to cut up the quote into chunks to respond to each section individually like you did, so I'm just going to put a full stop and line break between each response. Hopefully that will be easy enough to follow.

 

"So nutrients were down to zero even back in December."

 

Yep, at that point i saw it as a good thing.

 

"It's not a salt issue, but that is a semi-typical newbie misdiagnosis for many problems."

 

Yep, at this point I'm starting to realize that the constant micromangement of every factor I could think of was working against me.

 

"Good find...from 2015 too.  Not one I've seen before....will have to give it a read later."

 

I'm finding that reading the scientific studies related to this hobby really enriches my enjoyment of it. Its one thing to spend hours on a forum thread, but reading real, published science feels like I'm actually learning something, even if I don't understand every last word.

 

"You don't have any filters on this tank, so you're going to have a slick at the top."

 

Yea, that cleared up with the addition of the hob. Not sure I want to add a skimmer to this tank at this point, it doesnt seem neccessary.

 

"Oh oh...."

 

I know, stability is king.

 

"For what reason?"

 

I was not happy with the spectrum or coverage of the current fixture. It had a particularly unappealing spotlight effect at the height it was mounted, and that was not remedied by using the tank mount available from current that placed the light ~4" above the tank. On top of that, I could not find a spectrum that was visually satisfying to me after trying to adjust the levels several times. In hindsight I realize that making such a drastic change to t5 was probably not wise, but in the long run, I'm much happier with the current lighting. It wasn't particularly expensive considering I used a fixture marketed towards hydroponics. 

 

"The lights were not part of the problem."

 

I never thought so. I just didnt like the light I had, but i understand how making unnecessary changes likely effected my tank negatively.

 

"The salt is/was not the issue."

 

Never thought so, it mostly stemed from the fact that I wasn't able to find TM pro reef locally or from a trusted vendor online. I had gone through Reef Crystals and Brightwell Neomarine previously and ditched them, mostly because of failure to mix thoroughly, even overnight with a powerhead and heater. The esv mix seemed like a good option. 

 

"What you need is a second pump."

 

I've definitely considered adding a second pump and it could be done easily with the current flux controller system that is still running my powerhead. 

 

"IMO he was nipping for algae, not trying to eat coral (which they don't do)."

 

You are almost certainly correct, either way, I'm glad I got him out of the tank, but I do wonder if having a fish or two and the more regular feeding schedule that comes with it would be a boon to my tank.

 

"Bingo."

 

I think I'm starting to catch on, yea?

 

"I keep that article pinned to the top spot on my blog's front page.  👍"

 

Science strikes again!

 

"The only disaster that awaits re:phosphates is when the system runs down to zero."

 

And thats where I'm at currently, hence my issues.

 

"Looks like you have no cleanup crew.  If that's not the case, can you name what you have in detail?  If it is the case, why?"

 

1 Astrea, 2 Ceriths. Lost an Astrea a while back. Figured that was enough to start with on a tank this size.

 

"Can you get a microscope to look at a sample of what you have growing?"

 

I think that is the next step, I can spend a bit more than 10$, do you have a recommendation?

 

"Otherwise you need to re-do the shake test to see if you're still growing Dino's or if it's something else now."

 

Did the shake test twice, its definitely dinos.

 

"Depends on what you're referring to as "everything" – maybe stuff I'm not aware of.  But if you're referring to my dino thread on R2R"

 

That, and related posts are exactly what I'm referring to.

 

"Which is to say, you should digest the whole first post of that R2R thread, along with any links I posted there"

 

I have, and I do have questions, will leave that for the end of the post.

 

"IMO, you need to trust your own research MORE and trust doubts/mixed signals/etc you receive from the hobby LESS.  👍"

 

Good to hear, sometimes its hard to detach from the marketing and hype that is so heavily circulated. I will definitely be checking out your blog!

 

"IMO, dose your tank up to 0.10 ppm of PO4 as a minimum level.   Test and dose to keep it at/above that level just like you would do for alkalinity.  Do that until the tank does a real turnaround."

 

Got it. Hopefully I can nip this in the bud and be on the way to a happy reef!

 

"Again, sorry about not seeing this thread sooner.  Not sure why I missed it.  (Did the thread have a different title when it started?)"

 

Yea, it was a different title to begin with, something more generic.

 

Now for a couple questions:

 

As for manual removal of the dinos, should I significantly disturb the sandbed to remove them? I have read on the r2r thread and elsewhere that disturbing the sand can encourage dinos.

 

Should I attempt to seed the tank with biodiversity I.E. phyto, real ocean sand, maricultured live rock etc?

 

Again, thank you so much for typing up an awesome response! You seem to be on point with this stuff and I'm thankful to have your input.

[mcarroll]

Remind me what temperature you're keeping the tank?  (Looks like you're gunning for a cool-tropical Aussie tank...is that correct?)

 

28 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

I'm not sure how to cut up the quote into chunks to respond to each section individually like you did

Liberal usage of the "Quote" function. (Not the quote button, which is related, but different.)  Highlight/select the exact text you want and click the "Quote" pop-up button.  👍

 

The actual "Quote" button at the bottom of every post you read copies the whole post at once.  

 

The "+" button at the bottom of each post is used if you want to quote multiple whole posts at once.  Handy when you're reading a long thread and find multiple posts that you want to reply to but don't want to stop and write each reply.  You can finish reading the thread and then write all the replies at once.

 

 

33 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

Never thought so, it mostly stemed from the fact that I wasn't able to find TM pro reef locally or from a trusted vendor online. I had gone through Reef Crystals and Brightwell Neomarine previously and ditched them, mostly because of failure to mix thoroughly, even overnight with a powerhead and heater. The esv mix seemed like a good option. 

The usual way you see folks mix saltwater with a heater and a pump in the bottom of a bucket is kinda crap.  Very prone to slow mixing, which leads to more residues.

 

As I mentioned, you can still use those salts without issue most of the time....just dose the precipitate along with the water change water.  You can also get the precipitate to dissolve by using seltzer (co2) water.  You just need to aerate the water with an air pump+stone before using it to get pH back to normal.  Not a big deal unless you don't have an air pump and seltzer water...but those aren't expensive items.

 

ESV is definitely a high grade salt and MUCH less prone to mixing issues since the troublesome parts are pre-dissolved.  👍

 

Buy you also don't have to keep mixing salt the same funky way as "everyone".

 

Use either of the ways I put in these two videos....every other way I tried (and I tried a LOT OF WAYS during 140+ consecutive daily water changes I did a few years back) was not just worse,  they were WAY WORSE.  

 

Try either of these methods...the manual one (second video below) is the most simple and my personal favorite:

 

 

 

42 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

"What you need is a second pump."

 

I've definitely considered adding a second pump and it could be done easily with the current flux controller system that is still running my powerhead. 

Good deal!  I would do it sooner than later then, IMO.  👍

 

43 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

1 Astrea, 2 Ceriths. Lost an Astrea a while back. Figured that was enough to start with on a tank this size.

Correct - definitely good not to overshoot.  The tank is fairly well down the road from starting tho, so analysis and a recommendation is in order.  😉 

 

It doesn't look like the remaining crew is covering much of the tank based on all the growth in the rock pics you posted earlier.  I think you need a few more Astrea-class snails in there....I'd add 1-3 to start with...see how things go for a week or two before judging their progress (or lack of).  I'd clean off the rocks manually at the same time you add the new snails....they aren't going to do the first "mowing" when it's already grown in, you'll have to take care of that.  They should, however, keep the area clean. If not, then you need more snails and one more round of manual cleaning.

 

3 hours ago, pmang6 said:

"Can you get a microscope to look at a sample of what you have growing?"

 

I think that is the next step, I can spend a bit more than 10$, do you have a recommendation?

So $10 gets you a perfectly usable, albeit 100% plastic, microscope.

 

You don't have to spend more than $50 or so to get a legit all-metal scope....doesn't have to be high-power...the lowest will work if that's what fits the budget.

 

I "upgraded" from my $10 toy scope to a USED $10 Lasko 400x scope.   That's the lowest power you generally see on a microscope, but it's on a real scope body, so I have a real stage to attach a 2D mechanical stage, and I was able to get an LED light to fit the mirror slot under the stage.  Speaking of mirrored scopes, they work WAY better than you imagine they would and TAKE NO POWER OR BATTERIES.  I know that's patently obvious, but it's really nice to get out your scope and use it without having to worry about power, and I think everyone assumes they need a powered light.  I did.  But couldn't pass on a $10 REAL scope just because it had a mirror, so I learned a nice lesson in the process.  The upgraded stage and LED light were about $30 total....now I have a sweet scope and don't see a real need for more magnification nor for other features.  Maybe if I start doing more with it that will change....but I doubt it.  👍

 

Just to get you started, look at Craigslist and amscope.com's Student Scope section: 

https://www.amscope.com/student-microscopes/high-power-student-microscopes.html?dir=asc&order=price

 

At the $39.99 level you start getting metal-body scopes that my plastic scope was a cheap clone of.  (Which is also on that page, selling for $15.  Got mine on eBay for $10 tho.).  You start getting into the full size "real" scopes at the $59.99 level.

 

The only feature I "kinda" still want that I don't have is binocular eyepieces....gotta spend at the $200 level for that, and I mostly "look" through my cellphone anyway so eye strain isn't an issue.  

 

BTW, you can get a cellphone mount for scopes/binoculars/etc...check ebaymazon.  One of Amscopes toy scopes actually comes with a cheap plastic cellphone mount.  I'm sure that works, but you'll want metal.

 

3 hours ago, pmang6 said:

"Otherwise you need to re-do the shake test to see if you're still growing Dino's or if it's something else now."

 

Did the shake test twice, its definitely dinos.

Was it only Dinos, or are there other algae (or whatever) growing along with it?  (This is where pics from a scope would really eliminate questions.)

 

3 hours ago, pmang6 said:

As for manual removal of the dinos, should I significantly disturb the sandbed to remove them? I have read on the r2r thread and elsewhere that disturbing the sand can encourage dinos.

It's fine to siphon them off of the sand bed, but it shouldn't require any major disturbance of the sand bed to accomplish.

 

Whether disturbing your sand bed is a good idea or not has more to do with your sand bed than anything else.  

 

Ideally, you want to leave a sand bed alone so that it can house a stable (= diverse) population of sand bed critters.  Leads to a very healthy reef IMO.

 

Not that many tanks are so ideal, however, as they...

...lack the diversity in the first place to populate the sand bed

...have inadequate flow to keep an excessive percentage of detritus from settling

...get overloaded with fish (and fish food), have sand sifting organisms

...or have other issues that compromises the quality of the bed.  

 

So the end result is that most tanks end up requiring siphoning or even full-on gravel cleaning, even though it's the opposite of ideal.  (That's how you'd run an under gravel filter in a freshwater tank, not a sand bed in a reef tank.) 

 

For what it's worth, the sand in my 10 year old multi-tank system I recently converted to a single larger tank was apparently as nice as the day I put it in....no sign of anything negative when I transferred some of directly it to the new tank.  It can be done.  It just usually isn't.  I don't think it's usually a conscious choice or I think more folks would prolly choose otherwise. 🤷‍♂️ 👍

 

3 hours ago, pmang6 said:

Should I attempt to seed the tank with biodiversity I.E. phyto, real ocean sand, maricultured live rock etc?

If you have the means, it wouldn't be a bad idea.  Seems like you could either replace some of your rock, or even add a little to what you have.  (Or both.). Same with sand bed.

 

Getting a nice, filthy scoop of detritus from the sump of a healthy tank would be GREAT if you know someone with such a system.  A scoop of sand or chunk of rock from such a system would be nice, but maybe not as good as straight-up detritus.  

 

Live sand would be a great option in the same way.  If you're talking about harvesting sand (or muck) from a beach yourself, that's risky due to pollution.  You'd have to be really confident about your location.  If you are, then it's a great option.  @Paul B does this with some regularity for his reef....check out one of his "40 year old reef tank" threads.  (R2R or RC prolly has the most up to date version since he doesn't seem to hang here often.)

 

Phyto isn't so clearly good...it's not like phyto will then start growing in your tank, it's more like you "hope" that some organisms will eat it.  But in essence, that's overfeeding, since it's unlikely that much of it will be eaten...it'll likely just break down in the tank, becoming an organic full-range fertilizer.  The composition is likely better, but it's not unlike dosing a tank with powdered flake food, or "reef roids", etc.

[pmang6]

4 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Remind me what temperature you're keeping the tank?  (Looks like you're gunning for a cool-tropical Aussie tank...is that correct?)

Rock steady at somewhere between 76-78 (different thermometers give different readings, but they are always consistent over time.) The inkbird heater controller reads out at 77.7 99% the time. And yea, my big theme for this tank was acans, so southern end of the great barrier reef would be the closest comparison in nature I guess. 

 

4 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Highlight/select the exact text you want and click the "Quote" pop-up button.  👍

Figured it out!

 

4 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Buy you also don't have to keep mixing salt the same funky way as "everyone".

The other problem I was having was bacterial growth in the mixing bucket after mixing overnight. I kept on waking up to water that was a cloudy mess, often with a thick film on the surface and obvious strands of bacterial growth. That has never been an issue for me with TM or the ESV mix.

 

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

It doesn't look like the remaining crew is covering much of the tank based on all the growth in the rock pics you posted earlier.

Interesting. I guess my logic up to this point has been that since there is no algal growth, a more robust cleanup crew was not needed.

 

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

So $10 gets you a perfectly usable, albeit 100% plastic, microscope.

I'l poke around that site and amazon and pick one out. I can think of a million uses for a microscope outside of reefing, so I don't mind shelling out for a half decent one.

 

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Was it only Dinos, or are there other algae (or whatever) growing along with it?

I suppose its hard to say definitively without a scope, but I only sampled the long strands of brown growth when I did the shake test. I do believe there is at least one other bad actor working in my tank in the form of a gelatinous mulm-like coating over most of the rocks. @Amphrites floated the idea of chrysophytes and that seems fairly consistent with what I've seen elsewhere when trying to research the stuff.

 

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

So the end result is that most tanks end up requiring siphoning or even full-on gravel cleaning, even though it's the opposite of ideal.

So ideally don't stir/vacuum regularly, right? What would be an indicator that the sand needs maintenance? Visual, chemistry?  Doesn't help that I have a very thin layer of large grained sand. Basically a big detritus trap.

 

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

If you have the means, it wouldn't be a bad idea.  Seems like you could either replace some of your rock, or even add a little to what you have.  (Or both.). Same with sand bed.

Yea I may contact Tampa Bay Saltwater to see if they can do a tiny order.

 

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Getting a nice, filthy scoop of detritus from the sump of a healthy tank would be GREAT if you know someone with such a system.  A scoop of sand or chunk of rock from such a system would be nice, but maybe not as good as straight-up detritus.  

I'll have to ask around at my local shops, my only reefing buddy is running a similarly new tank.

 

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Live sand would be a great option in the same way.  If you're talking about harvesting sand (or muck) from a beach yourself, that's risky due to pollution.  You'd have to be really confident about your location.

I wasn't thinking about doing that, but now I am. 😁 Canaveral National seashore has 40 miles of completely untouched beaches I would be totally confident in collecting from, but I'm fairly sure that would be illegal, and I'm not entirely convinced that beach sand would have a useful level of biodiversity. I did ask a friend who dives to grab me a baggie full of sand the next time hes out on a reef, so hopefully that pans out.

 

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Phyto isn't so clearly good...

The more i read about it the more it sounds like a massively over complicated version of nutrient dosing.

[mcarroll]

10 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

The other problem I was having was bacterial growth in the mixing bucket after mixing overnight. I kept on waking up to water that was a cloudy mess, often with a thick film on the surface and obvious strands of bacterial growth. That has never been an issue for me with TM or the ESV mix.

Can't explain it, but it definitely wasn't related to the salt....if it was you'd see millions of posts from all the IO users out there.  Glad it stopped happening regardless tho – how peculiar!!

 

11 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

Interesting. I guess my logic up to this point has been that since there is no algal growth, a more robust cleanup crew was not needed.

Well, nothing is really as simple as it seems, right?  😉

 

The reality is that your rocks ARE growing something (it shows up in the pics) and it's something that you'd like to be eaten up and replaced with something nicer like hair algae or coralline algae.  As long as the snails aren't grooming the rock, it will stay populated with what's growing there now.  And the current snails can't eat what's growing there now because in all likelihood it's grown too large for them.  They have tiny mouths and no ability to chew to tear at something like a fish or a mammal could...all they can do is "lick" like they're gong after an eternal ice-cream cone. 😉 So we have to clear off the old-growth algae for them to have a good start.

 

16 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

I suppose its hard to say definitively without a scope, but I only sampled the long strands of brown growth when I did the shake test. I do believe there is at least one other bad actor working in my tank in the form of a gelatinous mulm-like coating over most of the rocks. @Amphrites floated the idea of chrysophytes and that seems fairly consistent with what I've seen elsewhere when trying to research the stuff.

Very possible that's what it is, but I hate making assumptions when I don't have to.  Can you scrub it off easily and siphon it out?  Until we confirm/deny that's what it is, this is how I'd try to handle it.

 

BTW, if you want to spend a little, there is a nice (used) binocular scope with high-end lenses (so-called "plan lenses") for around $200 up on Craigslist in your area....prolly was a $300-$400 (or more) scope when new.  Worth taking a look.  👍

 

20 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

So ideally don't stir/vacuum regularly, right? What would be an indicator that the sand needs maintenance? Visual, chemistry?  Doesn't help that I have a very thin layer of large grained sand. Basically a big detritus trap.

Ideally, right.   If you see detritus rolling around the sand in the current, then you have an issue.  More flow is usually the correct solution if that happens.  Large-grained sand will be an advantage if you have to add more flow since it doesn't get "blown" around nearly as easy.

 

22 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

Yea I may contact Tampa Bay Saltwater to see if they can do a tiny order.

Last I spoke with them they hadn't been able to go diving for rock in months due to crappy dive weather.  Let me know if you find out otherwise!  👍

 

No LFS or friends in the hobby that might have something for you?

 

23 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

I'm not entirely convinced that beach sand would have a useful level of biodiversity. I did ask a friend who dives to grab me a baggie full of sand the next time hes out on a reef, so hopefully that pans out.

It would have some goodies, but you do want to get the most optimal patch of sand (or other substrate) when you're out there....hard to predict what that might look like.   For example, @Paul B often collects in mud flats....but I think that's because he's also trying to collect amphipods that are resident there.

 

25 minutes ago, pmang6 said:

The more i read about it the more it sounds like a massively over complicated version of nutrient dosing.

Which it is, more or less.  But that is not to say that it can't work...just that it's not very quick or very precise compared to dosing....which is both immediate and exact.  (Phyto is prolly a lot more expensive too.)