5 year old clown sick? Edit: 1.5year later it's back

[Kayman]

Hey, so my clownfish Alice is about 5 years old and I'll have had her for 5 years in January. For almost two weeks she's not really been eating and hiding in the rocks more. She has shown some interest in flake food the last few days but still none in frozen or pellets. When she does show interest it almost looks like she is struggling to see the food. She also seems to be breathing heavier and I'll will link a video at the bottom. 

 

A little Alice history. When I added the 2nd clown (no QT) about 21months ago she kind of did these same things and I thought maybe it was just stress since I never saw any physical symptoms on either of them. Then about two months ago she had one eye bulge out for about 3 or 4 days but then was back to normal. She acted normal those days as well.

 

Currently when she is not hiding she is still in her Duncan coral home and displaying courting behavior with the male. Twice now she's gone into the far corner and swam in place facing up for a few minutes as well as you'll see in the video. 

 

Getting ready to get a quick hospital tank up but not sure what I would even be treating for. Thanks!

 

 

[Kayman]

Hey, so she's eaten a little bit of flakes but still acting odd and hiding mostly. Occasionally she swims into the corner breathing heavy. Here is another video. Need to some help, not sure what to do? Prepared to pull them all out if needed but have no idea what to treat. 

 

 

[sadie]

I'm bumping this, hoping someone can help.  I hope she's okay.

[sadie]

How is your fish doing, any better?

[Kayman]

Sadly not really. Thanks for checking in though! 

 

She is still mostly hiding in a cave and doesn't come out for food, just eats a little of what comes to her. I hope she's not like a cat and going into hiding before dying ha. Here are two pictures of her hiding from yesterday. She will chase the other clown out if he try's to join her though. 

 

[Humblefish]

It's kinda hard to say as she's not showing any obvious symptoms other than the heavy breathing. How many other fish are in the tank? Any of them breathing heavy or showing symptoms??

[Kayman]

Yeah that's why I haven't pulled her yet. I have been thinking about trying a fresh water dip but not sure if the stress that would add on would be worth it, also hard to catch her in that cave. 

 

The only other fish are a clown goby and another clown and both are acting and breathing normally. Do you know if there is anything that might be worth treating in the tank?

[Humblefish]

A 5 min FW dip would only be useful if she has parasites or worms. Its especially effective for clearing them out of the gills (which could be the cause of the heavy breathing).

 

Another option is using acriflavine (e.g. Ruby Reef Rally). A 90 minute bath in that removes parasites + the antiseptic is effective against bacterial diseases. It's also good for clearing Brooklynella, a disease clownfish seem especially susceptible to.

 

Post dip/bath I would put her in a QT for further observation.

[LogicalReefs]

Soak food in garlic extract. It makes them want to eat the food more and also help with immune system.

[Kayman]

11 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

A 5 min FW dip would only be useful if she has parasites or worms. Its especially effective for clearing them out of the gills (which could be the cause of the heavy breathing).

 

Another option is using acriflavine (e.g. Ruby Reef Rally). A 90 minute bath in that removes parasites + the antiseptic is effective against bacterial diseases. It's also good for clearing Brooklynella, a disease clownfish seem especially susceptible to.

 

Post dip/bath I would put her in a QT for further observation.

Thanks for the help, I'll look into the acriflavine option. Wouldn't it be best to treat all 3 fish also since they didn't go through a QT in the first place? I think I will first try the FW dip if I can catch her and then see if it improves her condition at all. I don't currently have a QT set up so will have to get one going.

 

10 minutes ago, LogicalReefs said:

Soak food in garlic extract. It makes them want to eat the food more and also help with immune system.

Yeah I tried soaking my food with actual minced garlic but didn't seem to help. I did get some garlic extract and vitachem that will be at my house when I get home today, so hopefully those will get her appetite going!

[Humblefish]

7 hours ago, Kayman said:

Thanks for the help, I'll look into the acriflavine option. Wouldn't it be best to treat all 3 fish also since they didn't go through a QT in the first place? I think I will first try the FW dip if I can catch her and then see if it improves her condition at all. I don't currently have a QT set up so will have to get one going.

Treating all 3 would only help if you planned on running them thru a full QT afterwards, and also went fallow in the DT itself. To sort of hit the reset button on everything.

[A.m.P]

Have you seen any signs of aggression from the "Male" clown you added? It looks as if she may have been kicked out of her territory and is hiding to avoid encroaching on the other's turf, so to speak, in smaller tanks stressed-clowns which no longer feel comfortable in their environment seem to like swimming against the silicone in corners and floating around the surface. Fish which are being singled-out or targeted like to push themselves up against overhanging-rockwork to hide. 
Judging by the size of that black occy's face it seems likely either "she" is a he, or they're both near-equally-sized females and she's losing the fight to continue to live in the tank.

Otherwise I think I would avoid the FW Dip in favor of Humblefish's suggestion or try to put the black occy in a breeder net and see if she comes out of hiding in a week or two.

As an aside, Garlic may entice fish to eat but it doesn't significantly "boost" their immune system or fight parasites, it can "help" with either -but a "boosted" immune-system is called an autoimmune-disorder and it certainly won't de-worm your animals. In fact it mostly seems to cause liver-damage when administered in high-doses over long-periods (interferes with carbohydrate metabolism, which increases appetite as a "benefit" and causes fatty-liver-type diseases).
http://ecology.nottingham.ac.uk/~plzfg/EBBSoc/ejb5/Al_Salahy_&_Mahmoud_2003.pdf

[Kayman]

On 12/11/2019 at 9:17 PM, Amphrites said:

Have you seen any signs of aggression from the "Male" clown you added? It looks as if she may have been kicked out of her territory and is hiding to avoid encroaching on the other's turf, so to speak, in smaller tanks stressed-clowns which no longer feel comfortable in their environment seem to like swimming against the silicone in corners and floating around the surface. Fish which are being singled-out or targeted like to push themselves up against overhanging-rockwork to hide. 
Judging by the size of that black occy's face it seems likely either "she" is a he, or they're both near-equally-sized females and she's losing the fight to continue to live in the tank.

Otherwise I think I would avoid the FW Dip in favor of Humblefish's suggestion or try to put the black occy in a breeder net and see if she comes out of hiding in a week or two.

As an aside, Garlic may entice fish to eat but it doesn't significantly "boost" their immune system or fight parasites, it can "help" with either -but a "boosted" immune-system is called an autoimmune-disorder and it certainly won't de-worm your animals. In fact it mostly seems to cause liver-damage when administered in high-doses over long-periods (interferes with carbohydrate metabolism, which increases appetite as a "benefit" and causes fatty-liver-type diseases).
http://ecology.nottingham.ac.uk/~plzfg/EBBSoc/ejb5/Al_Salahy_&_Mahmoud_2003.pdf

Oh no the orange one, Alice, is definitely the female. She is at least 3 years older than the black one and noticeably larger, I think the picture is just throwing you off. She easily will chase him away from her cave and when she joins him in the duncan he does a lot of what I believe is submissive twitching behavior at her.

 

Thanks for the link! Yeah I know garlic isn't the cure all that a lot of people like to believe it is which is why I hardly use it. So far after two days it has not worked sadly to get her to eat though. With frozen she almost seemed to actively avoid it and with flakes she seemed to get excited when she sensed it in the water but still wouldn't come all the way out her cave for the flakes and ate only a tiny bit that floated near her.

[A.m.P]

I'm not sure what to tell ya, you could try putting either in a breeder net, if she starts eating it's some kind of incompatibility. Just because she stands her ground and sometimes hangs out with the other doesn't mean she's not losing the fight for territory ime, otherwise it would be odd for most of the serious clown-prone diseases to have a course this long, could be internal parasites?
Humblefish is the one to listen to on that though haha, you could try medicated-pellets/flakes which have API general-cure bound to them with seachem focus. If she eats enough to stay alive for 10 or so days it would still likely be enough medication to get rid of most internal-nasties.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/api-general-cure-with-seachem-focus-anyone-tried.303243/

[Kayman]

2 hours ago, Amphrites said:

I'm not sure what to tell ya, you could try putting either in a breeder net, if she starts eating it's some kind of incompatibility. Just because she stands her ground and sometimes hangs out with the other doesn't mean she's not losing the fight for territory ime, otherwise it would be odd for most of the serious clown-prone diseases to have a course this long, could be internal parasites?
Humblefish is the one to listen to on that though haha, you could try medicated-pellets/flakes which have API general-cure bound to them with seachem focus. If she eats enough to stay alive for 10 or so days it would still likely be enough medication to get rid of most internal-nasties.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/api-general-cure-with-seachem-focus-anyone-tried.303243/

I hear what you're saying but just from what I have seen I don't believe that to be the case. She still seems to be the big boss lady of the tank, the male only ever shows aggression to my hand.

Yeah that's what has me confused, it seems like most of the time one of the big diseases gets to the point it is changing the fishes behavior they don't last that much longer. I think I am going to give the medicated food a try and see if it helps. Thanks!

[A.m.P]

No problem, I just hope the ol' gal improves, it might be worth your effort to go ahead and run fallow for 6-8weeks with them in a qt tank like humble suggested as well, shotgun things.

[Kayman]

Yeah I might try that as well. At the very least I will be moving in the summer and will probably go ahead and do that with everyone at that point if I don't QT them all before.

[Kayman]

On 12/13/2019 at 12:58 PM, Amphrites said:

I'm not sure what to tell ya, you could try putting either in a breeder net, if she starts eating it's some kind of incompatibility. Just because she stands her ground and sometimes hangs out with the other doesn't mean she's not losing the fight for territory ime, otherwise it would be odd for most of the serious clown-prone diseases to have a course this long, could be internal parasites?
Humblefish is the one to listen to on that though haha, you could try medicated-pellets/flakes which have API general-cure bound to them with seachem focus. If she eats enough to stay alive for 10 or so days it would still likely be enough medication to get rid of most internal-nasties.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/api-general-cure-with-seachem-focus-anyone-tried.303243/

Hey, is the mixing of general cure and focus safe to feed in my tank or would I need to remove her to a QT?  Catching her hasn't been possible yet so before I dismantle the scape I thought I would ask.

[A.m.P]

If you follow the linked instructions and add 1 scoop focus and 1 scoop general-cure to some dried foods, with just enough moisture to dissolve and mix things, then let it set about 30 minutes it should be reef-safe.

 

I use it to prophyalactically-treat all my fish since my apt. complex won't allow me a QT tank, I recommend storing it in the fridge so it doesn't spoil and would personally advise against freezing as that can render antibiotics ineffective (the metroplex in API general cure for instance).

Edited December 15, 2019 by Amphrites
Being tired is no excuse for my level of poor-grammar

[Kayman]

3 hours ago, Amphrites said:

If you followed the linked instructions and added 1 scoop focus and 1 scoop general-cure to some dried foods, with just enough moisture to dissolve and mix things, then let it set about 30 minutes it will be reef-safe.

 

I use it to prophyalactically-treat all my fish since my apt. complex won't allow me a QT tank, I recommend storing it in the fridge so it doesn't spoil and would personally advise against freezing as it can render antibiotics ineffective (the metroplex in the general cure for instance).

Thank you very much for your help! Yeah I went through that thread but didn't read if it was for sure reef safe so wanted to check. 

 

Totally understand on the apartment issue, technically I'm 9 gallons over the limit not counting my sump. Gotta love following the rules. Thanks again for all your help! I'll be sure to post if her condition changes for better or worse.

[Kayman]

So the meds haven't been easy to get her to eat. She still only eats a little bit of the flakes off the sand. The last two days she really hasn't moved and just stayed put in her cave. I was able to catch her pretty easily actually and did a 4 min fw dip. Didn't notice anything come off of her but after putting her back in the main tank she's swimming sideways and breathing heavy. Has been doing this for about 15min now.

 

Edit: well of course after posting that she seems to have righted herself. Her skin is rather white now and all around her mouth is very white looking. Would that be normal after a dip? Just some of her slime layer coming off?

[Humblefish]

It sounds to me like she is very weak, from not eating. 🙁

[Kayman]

Yeah that's what we were thinking, it's hard to tell but she does look a bit skinny sadly. She also still seems kinda blind as I notice her bumping into the rocks around her rather often or she has a lateral line issue. A lack of sight though could explain the lack of eating and the bumping into things a better though. But yeah I'm starting to think she doesn't have much time left if she won't start eating again.😥

[Kayman]

At work today sadly and my girlfriend said she is just swimming sideways at the top of the water again 😰 I almost wish she would pass so she wouldn't be struggling anymore ugggghh 

[Humblefish]

3 hours ago, Kayman said:

At work today sadly and my girlfriend said she is just swimming sideways at the top of the water again 😰 I almost wish she would pass so she wouldn't be struggling anymore ugggghh 

You can euthanize with clove oil (available at many drug stores):

 

 • Put 3 drops with a half pint of water and shake very well, so the oil and water make a fusion - otherwise the oil will just float on top of the water and for the euthanasia to work the fish has to get the oil into its system.
• Add the mixture to the water that the fish is in (1 gallon of water should be more than enough) and stir it around slowly with your hand. The fish should become lethargic and sleepy. When the fish goes "belly up" it is asleep - not dead.
• Then add 3 more drops of clove oil. Add another mixture of 2 to 3 drops of oil in water.
• The fish feels nothing, it is very peaceful and humane.
• Don't make the mistake of thinking that if you initially put more in it will act quicker - it will only freak the fish out - it has to be done gradually so the fish doesn't notice the change in the water.
• The whole procedure should take anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour. You will know when the fish is completely dead because there will be absolutely no movement of the gills. If after an hour the fishes gills are still moving you could add a couple more drops of clove oil. Sometimes it does depend on the size of the fish to how many drops of clove oil are needed.
• Properly dispose of the deceased fish and wash treatment container thoroughly with soap and water.

 

^^ Credit goes to Renee aka Lionfish Lair