Prezpreston Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 On 1/3/2020 at 12:42 PM, Clown79 said: Ya salifert is good. On 1/3/2020 at 1:28 PM, mcarroll said: I like em too. On 1/4/2020 at 6:01 PM, Pjanssen said: Salifert is my preferred test kits for most things Thanks guys - Ordered it off amazon and should be here in a few days. On 1/3/2020 at 8:52 AM, mcarroll said: What happens if you run 2 or 3 tests back to back on the same water sample? How much variability is there between test results? If you're finding a lot of variability between tests, you have to doubt all your numbers before you doubt your water IMO. You really need to be able to get consistent repeatable results in order to know how far off your water is -- and to calculate a safe corrective dose. This is important for more than one reason. (Usually it just takes a little more practice to get repeatable results.) If you DO get consistent results across 2 or 3 tests of the same sample, then you have to consider that your testing ISN'T the issue and your earlier test results were valid. Ok I’m officially weirded out. Here are the numbers for my tank before my weekly water change (I ran the Ca and kH tests twice) which looked normal to me: Nitrate - 15 - 20 PPM phosphate - 0.25 PPM Calcium - 1st: 360 or 380 PPM / 2nd: 360 or 380 PPM Salinity - 1.025 dkH - 1st: 10 degrees or 179 PPM / 2nd: 10 degrees or 179 PPM PH - 8.2 Then I ran my LFS water (two separate jugs) and things got really weird: Calcium - 380 PPM / 400 PPM for both jugs kH - 1st: 19 dkH / 2nd: 18 dKH / 3rd: 17 dKH (1st jug) kH - 1st: 15 dKH / 2nd: 17 dKH (2nd jug) I have no freaking clue what is causing the variability; I washed my test tubes with RO/DI water and thoroughly dried with paper towels between uses. The only conclusions I can come to is that I either had some contaminant throwing off my results or my testing was faulty. I ran the test multiple times because I thought there was no way I could have a kH reading that high with calcium levels at 400 PPM. That being said, the results have scared me enough to the point that I’m going to hold off on doing my weekly water change until tomorrow night after work, when I can test the dKH more thoroughly. From what I could find online, that level of dKH is high; but I had heard that some salt mixes keep alkalinity high for some reason. All I know is, that is way beyond the max recommended 12 dKH level I’ve seen for saltwater. What is going on?? Quote Link to comment
Clown79 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 1 hour ago, Prezpreston said: Thanks guys - Ordered it off amazon and should be here in a few days. Ok I’m officially weirded out. Here are the numbers for my tank before my weekly water change (I ran the Ca and kH tests twice) which looked normal to me: Nitrate - 15 - 20 PPM phosphate - 0.25 PPM Calcium - 1st: 360 or 380 PPM / 2nd: 360 or 380 PPM Salinity - 1.025 dkH - 1st: 10 degrees or 179 PPM / 2nd: 10 degrees or 179 PPM PH - 8.2 Then I ran my LFS water (two separate jugs) and things got really weird: Calcium - 380 PPM / 400 PPM for both jugs kH - 1st: 19 dkH / 2nd: 18 dKH / 3rd: 17 dKH (1st jug) kH - 1st: 15 dKH / 2nd: 17 dKH (2nd jug) I have no freaking clue what is causing the variability; I washed my test tubes with RO/DI water and thoroughly dried with paper towels between uses. The only conclusions I can come to is that I either had some contaminant throwing off my results or my testing was faulty. I ran the test multiple times because I thought there was no way I could have a kH reading that high with calcium levels at 400 PPM. That being said, the results have scared me enough to the point that I’m going to hold off on doing my weekly water change until tomorrow night after work, when I can test the dKH more thoroughly. From what I could find online, that level of dKH is high; but I had heard that some salt mixes keep alkalinity high for some reason. All I know is, that is way beyond the max recommended 12 dKH level I’ve seen for saltwater. What is going on?? If you're buying pre made saltwater, it's hard to say. It will depend on the salt used and even water. If it's not RODI but rather RO, it will have minerals in it which could account for the high levels of alk. Quote Link to comment
Prezpreston Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 18 minutes ago, Clown79 said: If you're buying pre made saltwater, it's hard to say. It will depend on the salt used and even water. If it's not RODI but rather RO, it will have minerals in it which could account for the high levels of alk. It’s so weird because I’ve been using this premixed saltwater from the LFS for a month or two now. I’ve only just started testing alk in the last month, but I would have thought someone would have complained to them about elevated alk levels before me? They are a reputable LFS (according to yelp) and have seemingly healthy corals and fish. Jury is still out for me until I test a few more times tomorrow but - to confirm, I definitely shouldn’t use that water if in fact it’s sitting anywhere near 15 dKH right? Quote Link to comment
Pjanssen Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 I would bring it up to the LFS and ask them if that is the norm for them and why. Then you can choose to either go somewhere else or start making your own if you are not satisfied. 2 Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 I wonder if when you measure alkalinity at 200ppm near the beginning of the thread if the meter was pegged and the level was actually much higher even then? 19 dKH alk (below) is almost 340 ppm alk or 6.8 meq/L alk. 11 hours ago, Prezpreston said: Here are the numbers for my tank before my weekly water change (I ran the Ca and kH tests twice) which looked normal to me: Nitrate - 15 - 20 PPM phosphate - 0.25 PPM Calcium - 1st: 360 or 380 PPM / 2nd: 360 or 380 PPM Salinity - 1.025 dkH - 1st: 10 degrees or 179 PPM / 2nd: 10 degrees or 179 PPM PH - 8.2 Then I ran my LFS water (two separate jugs) and things got really weird: Calcium - 380 PPM / 400 PPM for both jugs kH - 1st: 19 dkH / 2nd: 18 dKH / 3rd: 17 dKH (1st jug) kH - 1st: 15 dKH / 2nd: 17 dKH (2nd jug) What is the specific gravity in the two jugs? And what is the pH? Does magnesium in the jugs seem correct (or "off") as well? I'm not entirely sure it's possible under normal seawater conditions to have alk that high without abiotically precipitating out Ca+alk until levels are down. Check this ref. out: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.php#13 (converter tool: https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/AlkConversion.php) Unless you already know, can you call the store and find out what salt mix they're using? If it's something with elevated calcium levels, then we can say that calcium has precipitated down to around 380 ppm. You can ask them about the rest of the situation while you're on with them. Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 10 hours ago, Prezpreston said: They are a reputable LFS (according to yelp) and have seemingly healthy corals and fish. No need to play Sherlock....just ask em. Could be a freak event and even they haven't noticed*, or maybe there's some explanation. * Stuff happens. Once we got a mislabeled DI cart that was flooding our water with H+ ions. Supposed to part of a DI-combination for use in a specific circumstance. (Not ours. Certainly not like this!) Good luck tracing something like that down!!! 😵 Quote Link to comment
Prezpreston Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 8 hours ago, Pjanssen said: I would bring it up to the LFS and ask them if that is the norm for them and why. Then you can choose to either go somewhere else or start making your own if you are not satisfied. 3 hours ago, mcarroll said: I wonder if when you measure alkalinity at 200ppm near the beginning of the thread if the meter was pegged and the level was actually much higher even then? 19 dKH alk (below) is almost 340 ppm alk or 6.8 meq/L alk. What is the specific gravity in the two jugs? And what is the pH? Does magnesium in the jugs seem correct (or "off") as well? I'm not entirely sure it's possible under normal seawater conditions to have alk that high without abiotically precipitating out Ca+alk until levels are down. Check this ref. out: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.php#13 (converter tool: https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/AlkConversion.php) Unless you already know, can you call the store and find out what salt mix they're using? If it's something with elevated calcium levels, then we can say that calcium has precipitated down to around 380 ppm. You can ask them about the rest of the situation while you're on with them. 3 hours ago, mcarroll said: No need to play Sherlock....just ask em. Could be a freak event and even they haven't noticed*, or maybe there's some explanation. * Stuff happens. Once we got a mislabeled DI cart that was flooding our water with H+ ions. Supposed to part of a DI-combination for use in a specific circumstance. (Not ours. Certainly not like this!) Good luck tracing something like that down!!! 😵 Thanks for all that guys - will respond more in depth tonight after work but - just called LFS to ask those questions on my lunch break and got this: 1.) They use the purple bucket instant ocean salt mix and 2.) They don’t intentionally elevate alk levels or use buffers of any kind. They said they used distilled water and a 3 stage UV system. Time to run those tests again tonight... 1 Quote Link to comment
Clown79 Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 15 minutes ago, Prezpreston said: Thanks for all that guys - will respond more in depth tonight after work but - just called LFS to ask those questions on my lunch break and got this: 1.) They use the purple bucket instant ocean salt mix and 2.) They don’t intentionally elevate alk levels or use buffers of any kind. They said they used distilled water and a 3 stage UV system. Time to run those tests again tonight... How do they sell distilled water? Do they have a distillery? The 1 problem with instant ocean is lack of batch controls, there is no way to know what levels each batch will be, so from bag to bag it changes. I'd test a batch of their SW twice. If the numbers are the same, it's not going to change. There are various reasons for increased params. Mag may be low, any water that isn't pure will have minerals in it which increases the levels, precipitation during mixing and storing. If you are trying to determine how much alk your tank is consuming then test 1 time every day at the same time from after a waterchange to day of next waterchange. Why are so many tests being done? after 3 tests that have consistent results, it's not likely to change. it's most likely the purchased water and determining cause is pretty difficult, you didn't make the water or make it into SW, you have no control. I'd test nutrients and ph of their water and if you have a tds meter, that too. Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Prezpreston said: distilled Did they actually say RODI water? (Or did they actually mean RODI and say distilled by mistake?) 2 hours ago, Prezpreston said: Time to run those tests again tonight... Not a bad idea just to be sure....but your tests earlier seemed more or less consistent on each sample you tested. (See if the test kits have a published expected error rate in the instruction manual. Every kit has a +/- range that's considered "correct" and when you're outside of that range , it's your fault. The weird thing wasn't the test results last go-around, it was the differential between your tank water and the new water. 1 hour ago, Clown79 said: there is no way to know what levels each batch will be, so from bag to bag it changes That doesn't seem to make sense to me. If IO's process (or anyone else's) made every bucket (or bag) a little different, NOBODY would ever get predictable results from mixing and NOBODY since they started making it back in the 1960's would ever have adopted it. But everyone from me to the Georgia Aquarium is using Instant Ocean salt JUST FINE with very predictable results. So what's the scoop with hobbyists reporting variations? Settling during shipping is happening. Measurement errors are happening. Mixing errors are happening. Testing errors are happening. At home, there are two EASY ways to make sure every batch you mix is the same from any and every bucket of IO (or any other salt) you buy. Use a whole pre-measured package of salt at once (as intended). Using only part of the container is what allows measurement issues AND settling to be issues at all. (I.e. Use a 10 Gallon package to mix up 10 gallons of saltwater at once. Simple!) Premix the whole package of salt (while dry and still sealed) before using it. (I.e. roll the bucket or bag around on the ground for several minutes before dipping into it.) If you do either of these, and take care when measuring salt like you would when baking in the kitchen, most of the common ways of mixing will still get you excellent results with only normal variation. Quote Link to comment
Clown79 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 3 hours ago, mcarroll said: Did they actually say RODI water? (Or did they actually mean RODI and say distilled by mistake?) Not a bad idea just to be sure....but your tests earlier seemed more or less consistent on each sample you tested. (See if the test kits have a published expected error rate in the instruction manual. Every kit has a +/- range that's considered "correct" and when you're outside of that range , it's your fault. The weird thing wasn't the test results last go-around, it was the differential between your tank water and the new water. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. If IO's process (or anyone else's) made every bucket (or bag) a little different, NOBODY would ever get predictable results from mixing and NOBODY since they started making it back in the 1960's would ever have adopted it. But everyone from me to the Georgia Aquarium is using Instant Ocean salt JUST FINE with very predictable results. So what's the scoop with hobbyists reporting variations? Settling during shipping is happening. Measurement errors are happening. Mixing errors are happening. Testing errors are happening. At home, there are two EASY ways to make sure every batch you mix is the same from any and every bucket of IO (or any other salt) you buy. Use a whole pre-measured package of salt at once (as intended). Using only part of the container is what allows measurement issues AND settling to be issues at all. (I.e. Use a 10 Gallon package to mix up 10 gallons of saltwater at once. Simple!) Premix the whole package of salt (while dry and still sealed) before using it. (I.e. roll the bucket or bag around on the ground for several minutes before dipping into it.) If you do either of these, and take care when measuring salt like you would when baking in the kitchen, most of the common ways of mixing will still get you excellent results with only normal variation. Io doesn't provide batch numbers therefore you can't confirm what the batches parameters are. Other brands provide that information on every bucket. Unfortunately I had nothing but inconsistent parameters with the brand. Through various bags. First bag mixed high params. Low mag Second bag mixed low params ... I haven't seen that inconsistency with other brands Not everything is so black and white. Why do some get high alk/ca using IO and others complain about low params- and the same 2 ppl mix salt to the same salinity? not everyone has the ability to make months worth of water, so using a whole bag at once is not really a reliable method to ensure consistent numbers. I use RSBB and make my water each week, not perfectly measuring like baking, and only sections at a time. It mixes consistant each week. I'm lucky to see it changed from 8.6 to 8.3. (Over multiple buckets of use) For the small increase in cost, I prefer the ease of mixing, salt not hardening, consistent params, and I like being able to look up the batch(this is also part of quality control) there are many hobbyists that don't like the brand, have similar complaints as I, while others like it. Of course the masses use it and public aquariums do - it's cheap. 1 Quote Link to comment
Prezpreston Posted January 7, 2020 Author Share Posted January 7, 2020 9 hours ago, Clown79 said: How do they sell distilled water? Do they have a distillery? The 1 problem with instant ocean is lack of batch controls, there is no way to know what levels each batch will be, so from bag to bag it changes. I'd test a batch of their SW twice. If the numbers are the same, it's not going to change. There are various reasons for increased params. Mag may be low, any water that isn't pure will have minerals in it which increases the levels, precipitation during mixing and storing. If you are trying to determine how much alk your tank is consuming then test 1 time every day at the same time from after a waterchange to day of next waterchange. Why are so many tests being done? after 3 tests that have consistent results, it's not likely to change. it's most likely the purchased water and determining cause is pretty difficult, you didn't make the water or make it into SW, you have no control. I'd test nutrients and ph of their water and if you have a tds meter, that too. 6 hours ago, mcarroll said: Did they actually say RODI water? (Or did they actually mean RODI and say distilled by mistake?) Not a bad idea just to be sure....but your tests earlier seemed more or less consistent on each sample you tested. (See if the test kits have a published expected error rate in the instruction manual. Every kit has a +/- range that's considered "correct" and when you're outside of that range , it's your fault. The weird thing wasn't the test results last go-around, it was the differential between your tank water and the new water. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. Thanks for your feedback guys - I was in a rush when I was typing earlier today and he did indeed say "distilled." However, the individual I spoke with is not one of the more knowledgeable in the store (based on my past interactions with the staff) and I would assume he meant to say RODI water, especially as I've gotten RO/DI water from them in the past. That being said, I wasn't able to find a margin of error printed anywhere (nor online) for API kH test kits. I decided to forego additional kH testing because I do feel pretty confident in those tests I ran yesterday, and just tested pH and salinity. Results are: 1st jug - 1.021 - pH - 8.2 2nd jug - 1.022 - pH - 8.1 I'm at a loss here. Not sure what those numbers suggest and would very much appreciate all your feedback re: what I should do. At this point, should I return that saltwater to my LFS? Would I kill my corals in my tank by using that water for a water change based on that high level of alkalinity? I'm definitely getting to the point where I need to make a change soon; I can just feel the nitrate levels creeping up in my bones. Also - side note that really got me bummed. I just got a nano flipper magnet to take care of some stubborn algae on the glass on my sand line - it worked wonderfully until I tried to flip it to the algae scraper side, forgot to turn off my power head, and promptly watched as my algae scraper detached and flew into my hammer, slicing off 3 tiny heads. I'm furious and sad all at once. My poor coral! I really do feel for these creatures like little pets, and I'm pretty bummed that I did that to my little guy. From what I can tell, there shouldn't be any lasting damage, correct? He didn't fully retract into his skeleton, and I'm seeing minor extension still, but 😞 mccaroll - currently, there are only 2 gallons of saltwater from this off batch circulating in my tank - the previous water change had been done with Imagitarium saltwater bought from Petco. At this point, I think I'm going to start buying Walmart distilled, buying salt, and mixing my own, so I can be absolutely sure of what I am putting in my tank. 1 Quote Link to comment
Prezpreston Posted January 7, 2020 Author Share Posted January 7, 2020 On 1/6/2020 at 9:36 AM, mcarroll said: I wonder if when you measure alkalinity at 200ppm near the beginning of the thread if the meter was pegged and the level was actually much higher even then? 19 dKH alk (below) is almost 340 ppm alk or 6.8 meq/L alk. What is the specific gravity in the two jugs? And what is the pH? Does magnesium in the jugs seem correct (or "off") as well? I'm not entirely sure it's possible under normal seawater conditions to have alk that high without abiotically precipitating out Ca+alk until levels are down. Check this ref. out: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.php#13 (converter tool: https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/AlkConversion.php) Unless you already know, can you call the store and find out what salt mix they're using? If it's something with elevated calcium levels, then we can say that calcium has precipitated down to around 380 ppm. You can ask them about the rest of the situation while you're on with them. That article you sent me led me to another article by Dr. Holmes-Farley - http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/ Am I correct in assuming that the only side effect of elevated alkalinity levels are that calcium will precipitate out of my aquarium faster? And further - to rectify those elevated levels of alk in the saltwater, I just need to add baking soda for a quick fix? That brings me to the salinity issue that I’m having with both of those jugs - but I do have some instant ocean salt for 10G on hand, luckily. 1 Quote Link to comment
Clown79 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Prezpreston said: That article you sent me led me to another article by Dr. Holmes-Farley - http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/ Am I correct in assuming that the only side effect of elevated alkalinity levels are that calcium will precipitate out of my aquarium faster? And further - to rectify those elevated levels of alk in the saltwater, I just need to add baking soda for a quick fix? That brings me to the salinity issue that I’m having with both of those jugs - but I do have some instant ocean salt for 10G on hand, luckily. As alkalinity rises, ca drops and vice versa. They work together, that's why many use 2 part dosers to keep them balanced. The other issues with high alk is that some corals don't like it and with low nutrients can cause issues. Salinity changes on a regular basis can become an issue. For corals you want 1.025 or 1.026. 1 Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 13 hours ago, Clown79 said: Why do some get high alk/ca using IO and others complain about low params- and the same 2 ppl mix salt to the same salinity? Settling, measurement and testing errors...even temperature equivalence (any of those, alone or in combination) matters. They especially matter if you're trying to compare your results with others. Red Sea is not exempt from those things, even with batch testing and labeling. (It doesn't take much googling to find examples.) If you look into the old salt testing project on reef central, they had to deal with this in order for so many people to submit meaningful test results to the report about so many brands of salt. Notably their process worked with every brand: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1714505 (Seems like they've chopped all the comments off that post and left only the first post/results....what a crock.) Since there's nothing else to look at in the thread (anymore), here's the old thread's composite results just for reference: There is apparently a newer test thread that was just recently started in 2106: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2554264. It's not that long, but it does have 272 posts in it. I'm 66 posts in and there doesn't seem to be any particular brand standing out as problematic. Not saying those reports would invalidate your experience. I don't have any question that you experienced what you experienced. Your experience is not unheard of, but when you consider how many people buy and use IO every day, it's far from commonplace. The only question is how your experience jives with "everyone's" experience. I think when we're trying to make a really broad claim that we have to try and consider all the experiences available vs presuming one person's or one group's experience trumps everything else. I think Rick Ross (aka Thales? or someone else maybe) wrote an article on this very subject (how easy it is to assume that you or your local group has all the answers) not many years ago. Here it is: A Love Letter to the Hobby, Trade, and Industry See: "Difficult Message No.1: We are Legion; Your Reefing Community isn’t the Only Reefing Community" 13 hours ago, Clown79 said: not everyone has the ability to make months worth of water, so using a whole bag at once is not really a reliable method to ensure consistent numbers. True....some folks don't mix their own at all since they have no room or desire for the hassle. But if you're not part of that crowd, and you do make your own salt, the most you'd have to make is 10 gallons at a time. Buy the small (10 gal) container of IO, which costs $6. A 10 gallon Brute costs $19 and should hold 11+ gallons. 10 gallons of water would only be about 4 water changes in a 10 Gallon tank. Besides, what's the big deal about keeping 10 gallons for longer anyway? It's a tiny little Brute can.....14"D x 17"H. 😉 Buying smaller packages does make the salt pricier (per gallon) compared to the larger packages -- but it also turns salt-mixing into an actual no-brainer. Marking the proper water level on the container is about the only thing left to do. 👍 12 hours ago, Prezpreston said: 1st jug - 1.021 - pH - 8.2 2nd jug - 1.022 - pH - 8.1 If your Ca/Alk levels were that high (earlier post) in the two new buckets of water, but the s.g. is only 1.021, then something is TOTALLY OUT OF WHACK. Those are supposed to be the levels at 1.025'ish. (See chart earlier for lots of 1.025 s.g. examples.) JUST TO BE SURE...can you double check the calibration on the tool you're using to measure s.g.? (i.e. does tap water register really close to zero? or do you have a salinity standard? Ether one should be close to the same temp as the aquarium, not dramatically colder, which can be an issue in the winter.) If you can, talk to the store manager next time you call and see if they can help you get to the bottom of it. They should be able to run the same tests as you. If it's a bad batch of salt, they'll have the same results as you. (And I think they might want to give you some replacement water! ) The pH is not completely off, especially given the wicked-high alkalinity....but that's about all that's right. 1 Quote Link to comment
Clown79 Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 11 minutes ago, mcarroll said: Settling, measurement and testing errors...even temperature equivalence (any of those, alone or in combination) matters. They especially matter if you're trying to compare your results with others. Red Sea is not exempt from those things, even with batch testing and labeling. (It doesn't take much googling to find examples.) If you look into the old salt testing project on reef central, they had to deal with this in order for so many people to submit meaningful test results to the report about so many brands of salt. Notably their process worked with every brand: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1714505 (Seems like they've chopped all the comments off that post and left only the first post/results....what a crock.) Since there's nothing else to look at in the thread (anymore), here's the old thread's composite results just for reference: There is apparently a newer test thread that was just recently started in 2106: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2554264. It's not that long, but it does have 272 posts in it. I'm 66 posts in and there doesn't seem to be any particular brand standing out as problematic. Not saying those reports would invalidate your experience. I don't have any question that you experienced what you experienced. Your experience is not unheard of, but when you consider how many people buy and use IO every day, it's far from commonplace. The only question is how your experience jives with "everyone's" experience. I think when we're trying to make a really broad claim that we have to try and consider all the experiences available vs presuming one person's or one group's experience trumps everything else. I think Rick Ross (aka Thales? or someone else maybe) wrote an article on this very subject (how easy it is to assume that you or your local group has all the answers) not many years ago. Here it is: A Love Letter to the Hobby, Trade, and Industry See: "Difficult Message No.1: We are Legion; Your Reefing Community isn’t the Only Reefing Community" True....some folks don't mix their own at all since they have no room or desire for the hassle. But if you're not part of that crowd, and you do make your own salt, the most you'd have to make is 10 gallons at a time. Buy the small (10 gal) container of IO, which costs $6. A 10 gallon Brute costs $19 and should hold 11+ gallons. 10 gallons of water would only be about 4 water changes in a 10 Gallon tank. Besides, what's the big deal about keeping 10 gallons for longer anyway? It's a tiny little Brute can.....14"D x 17"H. 😉 Buying smaller packages does make the salt pricier (per gallon) compared to the larger packages -- but it also turns salt-mixing into an actual no-brainer. Marking the proper water level on the container is about the only thing left to do. 👍 If your Ca/Alk levels were that high (earlier post) in the two new buckets of water, but the s.g. is only 1.021, then something is TOTALLY OUT OF WHACK. Those are supposed to be the levels at 1.025'ish. (See chart earlier for lots of 1.025 s.g. examples.) JUST TO BE SURE...can you double check the calibration on the tool you're using to measure s.g.? (i.e. does tap water register really close to zero? or do you have a salinity standard? Ether one should be close to the same temp as the aquarium, not dramatically colder, which can be an issue in the winter.) If you can, talk to the store manager next time you call and see if they can help you get to the bottom of it. They should be able to run the same tests as you. If it's a bad batch of salt, they'll have the same results as you. (And I think they might want to give you some replacement water! ) The pH is not completely off, especially given the wicked-high alkalinity....but that's about all that's right. I don't live in a house, I can't fit a 10g brute in my apartment, I also prefer to use newly mixed salt water. I'm not alone in this. I personally will never use the brand again. Used it too many times and simply don't like it, the mixing time(per ther instructions is 24hrs!), it clumps like no other. I had to throw out a whole bag that was properly stored and no way moisture got in it. I wouldn't waste $8 and 10g of water to try a brand I've used multiple times and don't like. My point- people need to do their own research, let them make the decision on what features they want, what reviews they like don't like, what's important for them, their budgets, and their tank. 1 Quote Link to comment
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