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Cultivated Reef

Tank Won't Cycle


wiigelec

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@wiigelec How's it going now?

 

On 10/3/2019 at 5:06 PM, Tired said:

All a fish does is add nutrients, it's not bringing the bacteria with it.

The inside of a fishes' guts (just like the inside of our guts) is a microbial/probiotic playground!  

 

Every poop is a probiotc/prebiotic burst for the tank.  

 

Even the fish's skin/slime is loaded with beneficial and neutral microbes that will be shed into the tank.  It doesn't go into anything like filtration, but check this out:

Abundance, diversity, and activity of microbial assemblages associated with coral reef fish guts and feces by Steven SmrigaStuart A. SandinFarooq Azam

 

Remember that bottled bacterial products have been around only for the blink of an eye compared to how long folks have been knowingly or unknowingly establishing nitrifying bacteria in saltwater aquariums.  (Which has been >150 years.)

 

Collectively, we tend to be myopic and only think about the potential pests they may harbor, when that's infinitesimal compared to the goods and neutrals.

 

All that said, I would not start with any fish....they are really too big for any small tank.  

 

Start smaller with a hermit or two, or a snail or two....and go for smaller specimens.

 

Go slow from there with weeks between future livestock additions and the bio-filter will be there, and it will scale up (SLOWLY!) with your livestock.

On 9/19/2019 at 9:48 PM, wiigelec said:

At a loss here and about ready to start over with new dry rock and sand.

If you do a restart, do it with live rock.  You will not regret it.

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7 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Start smaller with a hermit or two...

This tank will never host any kind of hermit crab they are the devil!

 

7 hours ago, mcarroll said:

If you do a restart, do it with live rock.  You will not regret it.

I've used live rock in the past, the only thing I regretted was the price $$$.

 

7 hours ago, mcarroll said:

@wiigelec How's it going now?

Dosed ammonia a couple days ago. Parameters this evening indicate minimal ammonia, nitrite spike, and nitrates so things are finally moving in the right direction! Going to get the quarantine tank setup and hope for a relative warm spell in the next couple weeks to mail order a neon goby otherwise it will be a pair of clowns from the LFS.

 

In my experience now Microbater7 and DrTim's don't work but Bio-Spira does...

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I don't think it was the bacteria for two reasons:

  • In the amount of time that's passed you could have cycled a tank with dead media, using only on ambient bacterial populations, without using any products at all...just like in the undergravel filter days.  June-October is three of four months, right?  30-40 days should do it, even without a bottled bacteria.  You're at somewhere between 90 and 120 days though, if my math was right.
  • The odds of having consecutive bad bottles of bacteria, of differing brands (from same or different place?) has to approach astronomical, unless you can think of some reason you know of that they'd have gone bad?  (Left in the car out in the sun?  Left in the freezer?  Anything?)

 

So based on available evidence I think it could have been the ammonia.

 

If so, then I think you stalled the cycle and possibly even sterilized your rock (and the bottled products) with your ammonia dose.

 

  • The bacteria themselves ARE sensitive to ammonia and can be killed by it
  • The will definitely be slowed at least by an overdose of any kind
  • If there was any adulterant in the ammonia, that would obviously have the potential to add to this "anti-bacterial" effect.  (Adulterated ammonia is commonplace.  And it is not labeled accordingly when it's adulterated.  Does it claim any kind of 100% purity or something equivalent on the label?)

There's one other different option:

  • They are also sensitive to basic water parameters -- if temperature and/or water chemistry is "off" in any way.

 

So does any of that ring any bells or does any part of it seem right or seem to fit your tank's history so far?

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2 hours ago, wiigelec said:

This tank will never host any kind of hermit crab they are the devil!

 

I've used live rock in the past, the only thing I regretted was the price $$$.

You know why I suggested them tho, right?  Hermits are great for the role as nothing else is in the tank at this point. 

 

But I wasn't particularly suggesting hermits...I don't really like em either.  I keep none most of the time, but I do have a low number in my "new" 125 Gallon because it went through a pretty massive hair algae bloom after the livestock move and nobody had snails for sale, but my buddy had a few extra hermits.  I really need to re-home the non-blue legged ones soon -- they got big!

 

As for live rock...

 

The cost in live rock is up-front, like an honest relationship.   You work out any kinks in the beginning when it's all simple, and then you go on to have a long, stable relationship.

 

The cost in dead rock is hidden, down the road, like...whatever you think is like this. 😉  (A "lemon" car purchase, maybe?)

 

Dead rock will need all manner of supplemental life forms to be purchased in bottles and bags to be added to make up for its lack of "live-ness". 

 

Bottled bacteria.  Algae.  2-4 types of pods.  Etc.  It all adds up....a lot of it usually also costs in shipping.  In the end dead rock is a lot more expensive than live...even more expensive than the bagged-wet-and-shipped live rock from the aquaculture places like tampa bay saltwater.  Heck by my calcs you've already got an extra $20-$30 in bottled products...maybe more like $60 if you had to order all that stuff...and you aren't even quite out of the gate yet.  And for what gain?  So it would take you 5 months just to get started?   Dead rock is a whole different kind of "hitchhiker pest"....it steals your money and time after its in the tank!!!  😉

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On 10/14/2019 at 6:09 AM, wiigelec said:

Might have a winner here!

 

Dosed the bio-spira last week and ammonia is down to zero.

 

I’ll double check by

dosing some more ammonia but I think it’s good now...

So interesting because my understanding is that Dr Tim is the one that used to make BioSpira, then he left to sell his own product. I think both products are temperature sensitive though, and could be damaged by shipping during hot summer months.   Your thread is enough to convince me to just stick with BioSpira for my new Biocube... worked well in my first tank, why take a chance trying something new...

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@mcarroll

Sorry no idea I’ve cycled a few tanks prior with never this much trouble all I know is I tried waiting, tried this bacteria that bacteria then tried the Bio-Spira and viola! tank cycling and I’m happy at this point to leave it at that...

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