Nitrates undetectable - coral reaction?

[SaltyBuddha]

So I wasn't feeding as much as usual and my nitrates dropped down to 0 for a while. I didn't notice until my zoas and my frogspawn/hammers started to close up. 

 

I've been feeding more and turned off my chaeto reactor. Nitrates are up to 2.5 now. Probably for a day or two, but they are still half closed.

 

How long for the coral to get back to normal expansion? 

[Humblefish]

I'm not sure how long until they "recover", but I'd bump your NO3 up to 5-10ppm for good measure. (Unless you also have SPS in the tank.)

[SaltyBuddha]

7 hours ago, Humblefish said:

I'm not sure how long until they "recover", but I'd bump your NO3 up to 5-10ppm for good measure. (Unless you also have SPS in the tank.)

I've got some monitopora that are absolutely loving it right now lol still not back to normal yet though

[Humblefish]

6 minutes ago, SaltyBuddha said:

I've got some monitopora that are absolutely loving it right now lol still not back to normal yet though

Montis can tolerate pretty high nitrates, if exposed gradually to them. I used to grow monti caps in 50-60 ppm nitrates. 

[mcarroll]

11 hours ago, SaltyBuddha said:

So I wasn't feeding as much as usual and my nitrates dropped down to 0 for a while. I didn't notice until my zoas and my frogspawn/hammers started to close up. 

 

I've been feeding more and turned off my chaeto reactor. Nitrates are up to 2.5 now. Probably for a day or two, but they are still half closed.

 

How long for the coral to get back to normal expansion? 

Can you post your other parameters?  Especially phosphate?

 

Also, can you post a pic?

 

What were nutrient levels like before?

 

What is your filtration like?

 

How is algae growth?

[SaltyBuddha]

8 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Can you post your other parameters?  Especially phosphate?

 

Also, can you post a pic?

 

What were nutrient levels like before?

 

What is your filtration like?

 

How is algae growth?

Sg - 1.026

Mg -1350

Alk - 8.5

Can - 415

NO3 - 2.5 

PO4 - 0

Temp - 79

 

Nitrates are usually 5 to 15. Phosphates are always undetectable. I have a macro tank that I dose phosphates in and I was thinking about bumping them up in this tank.

 

Filtration - Renew, Purigen

Chaeto Reactor

 

No algae growth in the DT. Chaeto is dark green with very little micro algae growth.

 

As noted I think I stripped the nutrients and I've been feeding very heavily this last week to get them back up.

10 hours ago, Humblefish said:

Montis can tolerate pretty high nitrates, if exposed gradually to them. I used to grow monti caps in 50-60 ppm nitrates. 

Wow - that goes against everything you read online. Mine have never really grown much but since this nutrient thing they have started to take off.

[Humblefish]

2 hours ago, SaltyBuddha said:

Wow - that goes against everything you read online. Mine have never really grown much but since this nutrient thing they have started to take off.

Acros need really clean water/super high flow/stable water parameters. Other SPS are more forgiving. 

[xM3THODx]

On 9/14/2019 at 10:50 AM, SaltyBuddha said:

So I wasn't feeding as much as usual and my nitrates dropped down to 0 for a while. I didn't notice until my zoas and my frogspawn/hammers started to close up. 

 

I've been feeding more and turned off my chaeto reactor. Nitrates are up to 2.5 now. Probably for a day or two, but they are still half closed.

 

How long for the coral to get back to normal expansion? 

be a wee bit cautious here when you find something awry with your system, instead of cutting it off completely it might've been safer to say cut the light period in half and let the parameter change slowly, in this case nitrate and/or phosphate. This is part of dialing in your stability. 

 

I ran into the exact same thing with phosphates and nitrates being near depleted and my acros were paling out. Adding one feeding and shortening the chaeto light period, then testing and adjusting to where I'm am now, a 12 hr photo period for chaeto, 2 fish feeding and nightly broadcast feeding. I started with lights on being 24 hrs then 16 then 8, algae started growing in the main display so back to 10hrs and finally 12. 

 

 

[mcarroll]

15 hours ago, SaltyBuddha said:

No algae growth in the DT. Chaeto is dark green with very little micro algae growth.

 

As noted I think I stripped the nutrients and I've been feeding very heavily this last week to get them back up.

So the chaeto is doing great and the display is doing lousy?

 

Sounds like the system itself is literally upside down.  🙃  It's a reef tank not a macro tank, after all.  Right?

 

IMO things like chaeto, ceramic bio-media, chemical filter media, et al, are extras. 

 

To me it makes sense to put extras on the system when they are called for.

 

It's clear in this case -- 0.0 phosphates, almost-zero nitrates, no algae in the display, corals reacting badly -- that there's no reason for any extra filtration at all. 

 

The tank is probably too new and the bio-load is obviously too small.

 

If you want to stop any damage or stress to your corals, removing the macro algae from the system is the fastest, most direct and complete way to do that.  (Looks like it just went on the tank a week or so ago....and if I'm reading right it didn't really go on the tank for a good reason....just needed a good DIY project.   Take it off and save it for later.)

 

Removing it immediately...

...eliminates the competition for phosphates/basic nutrients

...eliminates the organic carbon the macro is releasing into the display which stimulates excessive coral-unfriendly microbial growth which generates even more competition for basic nutrients

...eliminates the extra competition for oxygen which the algae respire during lights off

...eliminates the extra competition for carbon dioxide when the algae is photosynthesizing

...etc.   

 

All those stresses will immediately be removed from your corals, and probably allow algae (and all the good that follows) to finally start growing in the display.

 

BACKGROUND

Fast growing algae is not necessarily a beneficial thing to have near a reef.  Allowed to grow unchecked, most algae will kill corals nearby through a variety of means.....microbial warfare via carbon-secretion is one big way.  Herbivores that keep standing algae mass LOW are what allow corals to dominate over algae.

 

The ideal of "low nutrients reefing" is usually what attracts new reefers to set up a filter system like this vs emulating anything particularly reefy.  

 

I think it's fair to say in 2019 that "low nutrient reefing" is a fairly bogus concept.*   

 

At this moment, the macro is literally an extra headache to manage that's also ruining your display tank. 

 

Not the equation you intended, I'm almost positive.  😉 

 

I would shut down the macro algae today, altogether, and let the display tank start to mature properly. 

 

At the least, I would keep the macro TINY.  Golf ball size or less....until this "problem" (what we'll call the system's lack of need for any macro algae) blows over.  😉 

 

Let some green algae grow in the display. 

 

Let the CUC clean it up. (Help 'em when needed.)  

 

Coraline algae will follow.

 

Your corals will fill up the tank.

 

It will work out OK.  🙂

 

 

*@seabass posted an article the other day (check his profile!) from 2011 where scientists grew acros in CRAZY-high phosphate levels (I think up to 2.0 ppm!!!!) to show "how bad it would be".  Bzzzzt!  There was no mortality or even evidence of stress....all corals grew faster than usual, and the corals even allowed dino's to grow out onto their growth tips, which acro's can't/don't ordinarily do (it is thought) for reasons of self-protection.

[Clown79]

8 hours ago, mcarroll said:

So the chaeto is doing great and the display is doing lousy?

 

Sounds like the system itself is literally upside down.  🙃  It's a reef tank not a macro tank, after all.  Right?

 

IMO things like chaeto, ceramic bio-media, chemical filter media, et al, are extras. 

 

To me it makes sense to put extras on the system when they are called for.

 

It's clear in this case -- 0.0 phosphates, almost-zero nitrates, no algae in the display, corals reacting badly -- that there's no reason for any extra filtration at all. 

 

The tank is probably too new and the bio-load is obviously too small.

 

If you want to stop any damage or stress to your corals, removing the macro algae from the system is the fastest, most direct and complete way to do that.  (Looks like it just went on the tank a week or so ago....and if I'm reading right it didn't really go on the tank for a good reason....just needed a good DIY project.   Take it off and save it for later.)

 

Removing it immediately...

...eliminates the competition for phosphates/basic nutrients

...eliminates the organic carbon the macro is releasing into the display which stimulates excessive coral-unfriendly microbial growth which generates even more competition for basic nutrients

...eliminates the extra competition for oxygen which the algae respire during lights off

...eliminates the extra competition for carbon dioxide when the algae is photosynthesizing

...etc.   

 

All those stresses will immediately be removed from your corals, and probably allow algae (and all the good that follows) to finally start growing in the display.

 

BACKGROUND

Fast growing algae is not necessarily a beneficial thing to have near a reef.  Allowed to grow unchecked, most algae will kill corals nearby through a variety of means.....microbial warfare via carbon-secretion is one big way.  Herbivores that keep standing algae mass LOW are what allow corals to dominate over algae.

 

The ideal of "low nutrients reefing" is usually what attracts new reefers to set up a filter system like this vs emulating anything particularly reefy.  

 

I think it's fair to say in 2019 that "low nutrient reefing" is a fairly bogus concept.*   

 

At this moment, the macro is literally an extra headache to manage that's also ruining your display tank. 

 

Not the equation you intended, I'm almost positive.  😉 

 

I would shut down the macro algae today, altogether, and let the display tank start to mature properly. 

 

At the least, I would keep the macro TINY.  Golf ball size or less....until this "problem" (what we'll call the system's lack of need for any macro algae) blows over.  😉 

 

Let some green algae grow in the display. 

 

Let the CUC clean it up. (Help 'em when needed.)  

 

Coraline algae will follow.

 

Your corals will fill up the tank.

 

It will work out OK.  🙂

 

 

*@seabass posted an article the other day (check his profile!) from 2011 where scientists grew acros in CRAZY-high phosphate levels (I think up to 2.0 ppm!!!!) to show "how bad it would be".  Bzzzzt!  There was no mortality or even evidence of stress....all corals grew faster than usual, and the corals even allowed dino's to grow out onto their growth tips, which acro's can't/don't ordinarily do (it is thought) for reasons of self-protection.

I've also read various articles and other hobbyists in regards to high phos- same thing no negative outcome.

 

The ocean itself has areas where phos was very high but there was a lot of coral growth in those areas.

 

0 nutrients definitely has negative aspects to it.

 

 

[SaltyBuddha]

On 9/15/2019 at 9:58 PM, mcarroll said:

So the chaeto is doing great and the display is doing lousy?

 

Sounds like the system itself is literally upside down.  🙃  It's a reef tank not a macro tank, after all.  Right?

 

Thanks for the detailed response and sorry for the late reply. I've been absolutely swamped lately.

 

The tank is not new. About 2.5 years old. Regardless, I turned off the reactor for a few days and let the nitrates and phosphates build back up as noted in my first post. Then I reduced the photo cycle for the chaeto.

 

My only question was how long it takes them to bounce back once I get nutrients back in the tank.

 

Corals are still doing bad, but I think I may have found the reason. Looks like my ice probe chiller got a few chips and started corroding in the tank.... I just saw this today so I'm going to do some large water changes over the next week and see what happens. 

 

 

Now I have another question that I'll be posting in a separate post 🤞

[A.m.P]

That is some impressive corrosion

[SaltyBuddha]

56 minutes ago, Amphrites said:

That is some impressive corrosion

Well, the light green is algae and the white dots are little tube worms. The majority of the corrosion was on the dents and I scraped it off to see how far the holes went.

 

Poly-Filter has been in for about 24 hours. Some corals look a little better. Hopefully a few more days and water changes will bring it all back.

[A.m.P]

I was talking about those big pits haha.

[SaltyBuddha]

10 hours ago, Amphrites said:

I was talking about those big pits haha.

Yeap that is them lol