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Tell Me It Isn't! DINO!


Josh&Sarah's Reef

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Josh&Sarah's Reef

Hello Everyone,

    First, thanks to everyone on this forum for all the help you provide.  I have not been active on here long but derived much of my research from this site pre-membership.  A quick bit of background.... 2nd saltwater tank, 1st nano reef.  I have not had a tank in over 10 years, so we will just say its my 1st.  Background on the tank...setup and progress.  This is a 10 gallon "budget" tank (not really budget other than the bones) with some added bells and whistles.  I started the tank with dry rock and live Tropic Eden sand.  I fishless cycled with Dr. Tims... worked like gang busters.  I never really got an ugly phase and at the first three weeks my levels were textbook.  I am running a modded Aquaclear 70 refugium mod with Marine Pure Spheres and Chaeto with Chaetomax light running opposite AI prime tank light (until today... read on).  Everything was going so great so I added my CUC... a few snails, 2 scarlet hermits, and a cleaner shrimp as my first pet.  Everything was still great.  Beautiful tank.  I then began adding corals and everything was doing so good almost immediately!  I also had added a couple small live rocks for additional aquascaping and coral placement.  I then bought my awesome Goby and a couple more corals.  I am at the 2 month mark or so and BAM... like lightning, in 3 days my tank is brown!  It started on the rocks, now all over the sand.  I originally thought (yesterday) Diatoms so I got some chemi pure elite and added to my aqua clear media chamber I made.  I also threw out the Chaeto because it was not growing and starting to stink.  It was "shedding" some and causing bits to go into the tank.  I added more Marine Pure Spheres to fill the space in the fuge.  34.5 PPT (it goes between 34.2 and 34.8), I'm reading 3 PPM Nitrate if that and 0 Phosphate (I know this is false because of algae growth) with Salifert testing kit.  Oh, also, I have tons of copepods, they were the first thing I added and they thrived.  All my other parameters are good.  Below are some pictures from today.  It seems to have DINO written all over it but I don't know.... If not for the bubbles and 0 Phosphate I may still think Diatoms.  Should I wait this out?  Let it get worse before it gets better?  Blackout?  I'm sure I forgot some info but there ya go!  Thanks for your help!  I am at the 2 month mark give or take a few days and this is the first sign of trouble really.  Thanks again!

 

 

BUBBLES

   IMG_8746.thumb.JPG.3676df55376548e40bfde5e8cab42e43.JPG

 

 

 

 

MORE BUBBLES... NOT STRINGY THOUGH. .... Leather coral is the only one unhappy, but that if for other reasons......

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Tank overview... 

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SIDE VIEW... CORALS STILL OK

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                                                              JOSÉ AND SKIPPER REPIN' THE HOME TEAM!

IMG_8750.thumb.JPG.1c1022174e80bc94b3706030f1cc91e4.JPG 

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Josh&Sarah's Reef

Thanks everyone!  It definitely looks way worse under the blues at night (AI Prime).  I have it ramping down and it looks so red under straight blue... If I take a flashlight to the tank in the dark it is almost a greenish brown.... I will keep everyone posted.  I have read so many contradicting things I think I will just stand by and hope the Chemi-Pure Elite and removal of chaeto do something.  I will definitely vacuum out some of the rubbish on Sunday when I water change.  I'll probably do a 25%.  which is approximately 2 gallons.  I use distilled water from Food Lion for what it's worth.  Its a 10 gallon with ....probably 1/2 gallon in the aqua clear... maybe less... minus the sand and rocks so I'm figuring 2 gallons is a plenty.  Thanks again for the help.  I will keep everyone posted.  Feel free to chime in if you have any questions or additional suggestions!

 

Joshua

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I'd nix the Chemipure Elite. You don't want to have zero phosphate, that can lead to bad things, like dinos.  If you are worried about dino, get a microscope and see what you have in the tank looks like.  I bet your bubbles are just from the HOB filter, and the combination of some algae for the bubbles to form on. 

 

Ask yourself, what is in Chemipure Elite? If you know the answer and want to use it, then nm my ranting. If you don't, then use this as a learning opportunity.  I'd still run carbon, but leave other media out. Chemipure Elite is a good tool to have in the toolbox, but you have to know what job you want that tool to perform. 

 

The tank is young, it will go through stages like this, brown uglies, green film algae on the glass and rock.. Try not to add anything else, and let the tank get established. Let those marine pure balls do their stuff, run some carbon, and keep up on the maintenance. 

 

Or perhaps it is dinos...

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0 phos is not good, could be a reason the chaeto died and it can lead to dino's.

 

The algae looks diatoms. Dino has a different look to it and would need confirming under microscope for proper treatment.

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Josh&Sarah's Reef
10 hours ago, Garf said:

I'd nix the Chemipure Elite. You don't want to have zero phosphate, that can lead to bad things, like dinos.  If you are worried about dino, get a microscope and see what you have in the tank looks like.  I bet your bubbles are just from the HOB filter, and the combination of some algae for the bubbles to form on. 

 

Ask yourself, what is in Chemipure Elite? If you know the answer and want to use it, then nm my ranting. If you don't, then use this as a learning opportunity.  I'd still run carbon, but leave other media out. Chemipure Elite is a good tool to have in the toolbox, but you have to know what job you want that tool to perform. 

 

The tank is young, it will go through stages like this, brown uglies, green film algae on the glass and rock.. Try not to add anything else, and let the tank get established. Let those marine pure balls do their stuff, run some carbon, and keep up on the maintenance. 

 

Or perhaps it is dinos...

Understood.  I originally added the Chema-Pure because I suspected diatoms.  I figured the phos was false based on my eye ball test.  I talked to a local guy who has been reefing a while and he went on a rant about how testing for nutrients was the number one mistake folks make when they have issues.  His philosophy was to use your eyes and that testing for nitrates and phosphates just gives you false information that confuses things because you don't know how much of said nutrients are being consumed by your issues.....  I don't know how much I buy into that... I'm a little OCD so I'm going to test... haha.  I will test again today for nitrates and phosphates just to double check my work and report back.  I am very grateful for the guidance.  I do agree that it seems pointless to use GFO (1/2 of the elite) when there is 0 available phos in the tank... but... does it strip the phos out before the diatoms or whatever can use it to grow... I dunno.  You guys know WAY more than I do.  Again, I will report back with my findings this afternoon.  Thanks again everyone! 

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11 minutes ago, Josh&Sarah's Reef said:

Understood.  I originally added the Chema-Pure because I suspected diatoms.  I figured the phos was false based on my eye ball test.  I talked to a local guy who has been reefing a while and he went on a rant about how testing for nutrients was the number one mistake folks make when they have issues.  His philosophy was to use your eyes and that testing for nitrates and phosphates just gives you false information that confuses things because you don't know how much of said nutrients are being consumed by your issues.....  I don't know how much I buy into that... I'm a little OCD so I'm going to test... haha.  I will test again today for nitrates and phosphates just to double check my work and report back.  I am very grateful for the guidance.  I do agree that it seems pointless to use GFO (1/2 of the elite) when there is 0 available phos in the tank... but... does it strip the phos out before the diatoms or whatever can use it to grow... I dunno.  You guys know WAY more than I do.  Again, I will report back with my findings this afternoon.  Thanks again everyone! 

Diatoms main food source is silicates.

It's a 2 mnth old tank, they can appear at any time, it's not a fact they will appear right a cycle.

 

 

 

A sterile tank is the worse thing you can do. It leads to dino's which is the worst thing to get.

 

 gfo can easily strip a tank of available nutrients. And when using phos reducers, its recommended to test every 4 days.

 

 

Proper husbandry can control algae and you want any method you use to not destroy any diversity of life in the system or completely strip the tank, that will lead to bigger problems.

 

Adding more to your cuc, vacuuming sand, using Turkey baster on rocks, etc will all help reduce algae.

 

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Josh&Sarah's Reef

Ok.... I just tested and I am at a definite 0 (crystal clear) phosphate.  I am at 2 Nitrates.  I tested for Nitrites just for giggles and they were 0 of course.  I have probably done more water changes than necessary.  I turkey baster the rocks for sure, and my CUC is the following not including my cleaner shrimp and goby... 2 dwarf Cerith, 1 tiny trochus, one big trochus, one small ninja star, 1 chestnut turbo, 2 scarlet hermits.  The ninja star astrea is pretty lazy, but he did eat some of what ever is going on in a small patch... picture below.  So remove the chemi-elie..... ok.  Should I replace it with any other medium in that chamber?  I can go to a good LFS today where they have a good assortment of products and CUC.  Let me know if you think I should add additional CUC from what is listed and if I should give a different medium a try or purely run the marine pure spheres...  ??  Thanks again everyone.  I will mix up some of my salt and do a vacuuming/water change on Sunday.  

 

 

Sorry for the blur.. but he is eating some... I don't think they love it though

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Leather starting to wake up some

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You can see the "new" spheres I added yesterday after eliminating the chaeto...The tube is from the ATO in the cabinet below...

IMG_8734.thumb.JPG.46343483f1ee18fe3dbcbdf41b49d623.JPG

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1 hour ago, Josh&Sarah's Reef said:

Ok.... I just tested and I am at a definite 0 (crystal clear) phosphate.  I am at 2 Nitrates.  I tested for Nitrites just for giggles and they were 0 of course.  I have probably done more water changes than necessary.  I turkey baster the rocks for sure, and my CUC is the following not including my cleaner shrimp and goby... 2 dwarf Cerith, 1 tiny trochus, one big trochus, one small ninja star, 1 chestnut turbo, 2 scarlet hermits.  The ninja star astrea is pretty lazy, but he did eat some of what ever is going on in a small patch... picture below.  So remove the chemi-elie..... ok.  Should I replace it with any other medium in that chamber?  I can go to a good LFS today where they have a good assortment of products and CUC.  Let me know if you think I should add additional CUC from what is listed and if I should give a different medium a try or purely run the marine pure spheres...  ??  Thanks again everyone.  I will mix up some of my salt and do a vacuuming/water change on Sunday.  

 

 

Sorry for the blur.. but he is eating some... I don't think they love it though

IMG_8758.thumb.JPG.e20ec5c9f24130c162eadbe8504446d6.JPG

 

Leather starting to wake up some

IMG_8759.thumb.JPG.c5cd16aec1c3163a6ccd420ac3a5c5cd.JPG

 

 

You can see the "new" spheres I added yesterday after eliminating the chaeto...The tube is from the ATO in the cabinet below...

IMG_8734.thumb.JPG.46343483f1ee18fe3dbcbdf41b49d623.JPG

Anything that reduces phosphates should be used when you have a phos issue, with monitoring  

 

Good old filter floss and carbon is really the go to for most. 

I use purigen myself but small amounts. It's not necessary to use unless there is a reason.

 

I would add nassarius snails which help the sand bed and maybe a few more ceriths. 

 

Do you have a powerhead in the tank?

 

One thing i do recommend is adding some pods to the tank. They are a good source of diversity and help keep the tank clean.

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Josh&Sarah's Reef
26 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Anything that reduces phosphates should be used when you have a phos issue, with monitoring  

 

Good old filter floss and carbon is really the go to for most. 

I use purigen myself but small amounts. It's not necessary to use unless there is a reason.

 

I would add nassarius snails which help the sand bed and maybe a few more ceriths. 

 

Do you have a powerhead in the tank?

 

One thing i do recommend is adding some pods to the tank. They are a good source of diversity and help keep the tank clean.

I have had tons of pods.... first inhabitants.. They do great... I forgot to mention I do have one nasarius but all he ever does is stick his snout out anymore.  He used to roam around in the morning but he just sticks his nose up for the last 2 weeks then goes away.  My flow seems really good just using the aqua clear 70.  I actually had to modify it a bit to slow the flow a bit because it was blowing my sand some which is a mix of reef flakes and the 2 mil flakes.... so.... stable sand.  If I could post video I could give a better idea of the flow... seems good to me but I would definitely like some opinions...  I will remove the chemi-pure elite and run some carbon and some floss... maybe some puregen... How would you situate that filtration?  I'm assuming I can't mix the purigen and carbon... I will get 3 more ceriths and another nasarius today.....   Thanks!    

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39 minutes ago, Josh&Sarah's Reef said:

I have had tons of pods.... first inhabitants.. They do great... I forgot to mention I do have one nasarius but all he ever does is stick his snout out anymore.  He used to roam around in the morning but he just sticks his nose up for the last 2 weeks then goes away.  My flow seems really good just using the aqua clear 70.  I actually had to modify it a bit to slow the flow a bit because it was blowing my sand some which is a mix of reef flakes and the 2 mil flakes.... so.... stable sand.  If I could post video I could give a better idea of the flow... seems good to me but I would definitely like some opinions...  I will remove the chemi-pure elite and run some carbon and some floss... maybe some puregen... How would you situate that filtration?  I'm assuming I can't mix the purigen and carbon... I will get 3 more ceriths and another nasarius today.....   Thanks!    

The only issue with relying on just your filter for flow, is that a filters return is downward, that's why it blows your sand around.

 

Unfortunately this creates dead zones and improper filtration of the water because detritus, food, poop, doesn't get to the filter to be removed.

 

Nassaurius are sand cleaners, they predominantly dwell in the sandbed.

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Josh&Sarah's Reef

I have an overflow box on the return to prevent this issue.  I will dial the flow back up though. The area where sand gets moved is the opposite side where water banks down a bit.  I will try some adjustments. My water does look fairly clear. I’m on my way to LFS to get supplies. Thanks for sticking with me through this! 

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Josh&Sarah's Reef

I got some purigen, and charcoal... I'm gonna give those a try... I added another small turbo because they were out of ceriths.  I will do a thorough cleaning and sanded vacuuming on Sunday.  

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Josh&Sarah's Reef

Situation Update.....

After hours of looking all over the tank, looking online at pictures of everything, and reading copious amounts of threads etc... I have come to the belief that I have a mixture of everything going on.... Definitely some diatom covered hair algae, a little Dino, and I think a touch of cyano.  I have seen a few strands with bubbles at the ends.  Not all over, but here and there.  Plus the nitrates and phos were at at 0... the nitrates were technically .something.  I never got an "ugly" phase so I figured I was lucky but I'm thinking this is delayed onset.  

 

What I did today....

Close to a 50% water change after cleaning the glass, toothbrushing the rocks, and turkey basting everything, and siphoning some sand. I completely broke down the filter, cleaned it thoroughly and re-configured everything.  I am now using an in-tank basket, consisting of filter floss, charcoal and purigen, and my original marine pure spheres.  I also changed my AI Prime settings to less whites (I was running Saxby settings but reduced intensity).  Now I am running the BRS settings but again, greatly reduced intensity.  I also added 2 cap-fulls of bottled bacterial, and fed the tank a bit more than usual.  I increased the flow from the AC70.

 

What I think I should do next...

Dose more Photo.  I have been doing 5ml every other day (the directions say 5ml per 20 gallons daily and I'm on a 10 gallon.). I think I will dose 5-7ml daily.  I am also going to feed a bit more.  My goal is to bring nitrates and phos up a bit, but still have the media in there to prevent a spike.  I will add some bottled bacteria (a few capfuls) every Sunday at water change.  I will aggressively vacuum and siphon at water changes.  Because of the setup change with the AC70 I can now run floss (I moved my heater).  I will change the floss every other day.  

 

I think with a balanced approach I can get a hold of the situation.  

 

Should I turkey baste the rocks etc daily to kick up the junk so the floss can catch more of it?  Or should I just do that before the water change?  

 

Thanks everyone!

 

 

                  As clean as I could get it today

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            In Tank basket now allows me to run a more organized setup including floss

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   A little blurry but looks like Dino

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Thanks again folks.... I would love to hear your thoughts!

 

Joshua

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Bubbles don't necessarily mean dino's.

Really the only 100% way of diagnosing dino's, is under microscope or the water jar test. 

 

Cyano can have bubbles in it, also micro bubbles in the tank can attach to algae.

 

If you have dino's, there are specific methods to get rid of it.

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Josh&Sarah's Reef

Thanks for the help. Should I continue with the regiment described above until I can get my hands on a microscope?  I’ll report back in a few days with readings and status. Thanks again!

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If it's only 10g, then 5ml is too much. 

 

I would do 2.5ml every other day per instructions.

 

I wouldn't run any phos reducers.

 

As for waterchanges, if its Dino's, that's the opposite of what you wanna do. Any new water, amino's, etc they will feed off of and multiply.

 

There is a simple jar test that helps determine dino's, I just can't find it.

 

@mcarroll do you have the instructions for testing dino's in a jar?

 

 

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Take a sample of the algae with a little tank water and shake it up until it's homogenized/disintegrated.

 

Then place the sample under lights for a while. 

 

If anything reconstitutes into mats or strands you have dino's.  

 

Diatoms and cyano won't move.

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47 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Take a sample of the algae with a little tank water and shake it up until it's homogenized/disintegrated.

 

Then place the sample under lights for a while. 

 

If anything reconstitutes into mats or strands you have dino's.  

 

Diatoms and cyano won't move.

This works really well.

 

I filled a jar with tank water only, shook it up, left in window sill. Next day there were stringy clumps in it. Looked like dino's, confirmed with microscope. 

 

 

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Josh&Sarah's Reef

Ok... latest....

 

 I did the jar test. I couldn’t get the best sample because the strands are very short, but I got some. The few long pieces I could find were green strands in the sunlight, but after I shook up the container and let it sit everything but the green strands stayed broken apart (they never broke up).  I changed my floss this morning and it was pretty gross already, probably from increased flow and turkey basting. I turkey basted again today and blew some stuff around for the filter.  One note... the stuff in the sand bed has an almost coagulated effect. The sand in the effected areas is clumpy and kind of mat like... just the residual turkey baster effort blew some of it away.  Last night my phos was unreadable and nitrates are at 2 or 3. All using Salifert testing kits.  Throughout the day the dusting does return, lightly at first. It’s only if I let it go that it gets thicker. 

 

Looks like (hopefully) you guys were right about the ID. Maybe diatom and hair algae mix...maybe a touch of Cyano or bacteria?

 

Water is super crystal clear. Inhabitants seem happy. My scarlet hermit crabs (2) have slowed down some. They are sleeping a lot and moping the last 2 days but that could be from the massive cleaning. 

 

Unless advised otherwise I will continue to try and get my phos readable naturally and keep things clean. I’ll change floss every other day and turkey baste.  I’ll add bacteria at WC and wait this out.  Let me know what you think. Thanks everyone!

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