Intro/12 Gallon Long Build Questions

[rmalford]

Hello, I've about 7 years of freshwater fish-keeping experience. I've been out of the hobby for about 4 years now. My last tank was an acrylic 8 foot long 240g which I kept a variety of Malawi haps and peacocks. I've never attempted to keep any salt water aquarium. I am set on trying a 3 foot long 12 gallon dirty reef with a bare bottom. So far, I have only the tank and the will. I'm looking into lighting and wave maker options. Currently looking at a USA Current Orbit Marine Pro P/N: 4226. I think this light will grow anything in my tank size? For waves, I had been looking at specs for an MP10 and also the USA Current eFlux. Hopefully, some of you would be willing to give me a little guidance.

 

 

Questions:

 

1. I know nothing about what type of rock to scape with. Start with dead rock and does it need to be cured?
2. Would 1 MP40 be too much or would I need 2 MP10? I am going bare bottom so won't need to worry about kicking up sand.

 

Pictures from my old 240g for attention

[Clown79]

Hi and welcome

 

What do you plan on keeping in the tank?

 

2 mp10's would be better than 1 mp40.

 

There are other options like aqamai, tunze, jebao, nero5.

 

As for rock, that's personal preference.

 

Some like live rock, other dry rock. Cycling with either choice will be different.

 

Liverock has benefits like diversity of life, if fully established, not likely to cycle or often shorter cycles.

 

Dry rock come with no life and when cycling requires an ammonia source and bacteria dosing.

 

It's best to read up on the options and how to cycle, then choose which method is best for you

[mcarroll]

Agreed.  

 

8 hours ago, rmalford said:

I know nothing about what type of rock to scape with

 

First, let's assume that any guidance I give is for the newbie....I'm not claiming "what's best for everyone" or anything more grand. 

 

Second, let's assume that people with experience (non-newbies) can get away with doing anything...including many things not recommendable to beginners.

 

 

For A Beginner...

Live rock is (still) the most established, reliable way to start a new, healthy reef

 

That makes it (still) the best choice for a first-timer or beginner.

 

 

Dead Rock vs Base Rock

Base rock, which is better than dead rock, was used as an inferior alternative to live rock when I was coming up through the 90's and into the 2000's.  If it wasn't cheaper, nobody would have ever have used base rock in a tank.  But base rock was still live rock!!

 

Dead rock is even less-good than base rock - because it's dead.  😉

 

Dead rock being something other than a liability in a reef tank is a relatively new thing.

 

 

You can look around and see "good" dead rock tanks. 

 

But if you look around at the places with lots more users, the "bad" and the "ugly" dead rock tanks seem to outnumber the good ones by 10 or 100 to 1.  

 

My gut tells me that almost no newbies end up with successful tanks, except a few out of pure luck.

 

The folks with the good tanks are in 99% of cases not beginners IMO....they are experts.

 

As a beginner, be wary of emulating experts without understanding why they do what they do. 

 

As a beginner, be especially wary if the expert doesn't understand why they do what they do!  😄

 

That said, if you can understand everything that's going on with it by observing or by having it explained, then emulating a working system is a great strategy for a beginner.
 

Any Dead Rock Usage Guidelines?

 

Very few GOOD usage guides have been written on dead rock as far as I know.....I'm not personally aware of any.

 

Strangely, every guide I could find seems to focus on fear as the main reason to opt for dead rock. 

 

Fear in this context amounts to nothing more than worrying about imagined problems that others have had.  Taking other people's problems to heart and worrying about them is not productive. 

 

Learning from other peoples' problems, on the other hand, is more productive, but not necessarily easy to do as it takes some expertise to see where the other person may have gone wrong.

 

One prominent article I found, for example, sounds like the author's only experience with live rock was from recycling old rock from tanks that were over-run with pests.  Duh!!  The answer to the author's problem is not switching to dead rock.  Recycling pest-rock is a cheap-out move that anyone with experience would (or should) warn a newbie against.

 

Sometimes even purely aesthetic reasons are given for choosing dead rock, such as the shapes the dead rock comes in. 

 

This lowers the rock to the significance of a mere tank decoration and completely ignores what live rock really is.

 

Aesthetics are important, but secondary to functional concerns.

 

I've written a couple of micro-guides on improving dead rock if you run a search or look back over my posting history, but even they are necessarily incomplete....they are just thread posts after all.  Might be worth looking them up if you're just interested in seeing a rough guide....and maybe someone will suggest a better guide that I'm not aware of.

 

 

Better Dead Alternative?

If aesthetics are important, maybe consider the "The DIY Frag plugs/disks/rocks thread." sticky thread in our Aquaculture forum to make your own rock? 

 

We have had lots of threads on "aragocrete" (n-r search)...

 

@Paul B has his "DIY Rock for the Marine Aquarium" article and complementary section in his book.  It's worth noting what he does to "enliven" his rock....he's been using dead rock longer than anyone I'm familiar with.

 

Of course the original GARF guide for making rock still seems to be online as well:

https://www.garf.org/class.html

 

 

Real, Actual Live (as-in-from-the-ocean) Rock

Our Biological Filtration section has an article titled the The Soft Cycle thread that is pretty decent on starting with live rock. 

 

I've never heard this name before....seems like a new name slapped onto the classic way of starting a tank....but good for folks who want a name on it!  😉

 

Some folks (lots of them) seem to have forgotten that the multitude of microbes in and on live rock is the main thing what we want it for:

 

We're not merely interested in a few paltry bacteria to handle the nitrogen cycle....they are ubiquitous in the environment and we can buy them, concentrated in a bottle:

 

Those critters are useful for starting an under gravel filter or power filter, etc. 

 

But they will "just happen" no matter what we do...even if we do nothing specific to add them.

 

Further, they are not a pathway to live rock.  At most they are a single stone in that pathway.

 

Without that multitude of microbes in the first picture you just have another bio-media...like a bag of gravel or like this stuff:

 

For more on those multitudes and why they matter (they bring stability!), check out this blog post:

The Nature and Consequences of Indirect Effects in Ecological Communities

 

[rmalford]

All, thank you for the time you took to reply. I've been really busy. The tank has been up and running for about a month and a half. I have had a clown and a couple of turbos in there for about 3 weeks now. Parameters 2.5 weeks ago I had a little bit of ammonia, nitrate, nitrite. Last Saturday I checked and all were at 0. Over the last few weeks I've seen what I think was, brown diatom that lasted a few days, then green algae a few days, and now I have had cloudy water for about the last 6 days. I think this is a phytoplankton outbreak? Not sure when this will clear up. After the first few days of this, I see tons of tiny bugs on the side and bottom glass. Some type of zooplankton I presume. To start the cycle process I went with dry rock with one piece of established live rock. For equipment I went with Current USA Marine IC Pro with one 2000gph eFlux wave maker that I'm running stream mode at 100% flow 90sec intervals. I also added Purigen after seeing my ammonia and nitrite parameters were in check but I'm on the fence about whether or not I should even have it in there. Not much to look at right now, but included some pictures below of water cloudiness over time.

 

@Clown79 This will be a reef tank. I'm keeping my options open.

[Clown79]

A white bloom is bacterial bloom, it will pass. Phyto bloom is green 

 

The little bugs you are seeing are pods.

[rmalford]

It’s been a little over a week since my last WC. Bloom is gone today. I added another clownfish, black bristle star, blood shrimp, gramma, clown goby last Friday. Anyone here have some advice on what I should be feeding this crew? This will be a reef tank and I like the idea of having something the coral, fish and inverts would all consume. Right now I’m using .5 mm NLS Thera A. 

 

Ran some API tests today - PH 8.2, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, and surprisingly nitrate 0. In addition, phosphate 0, calcium 340. API calcium test is a bit of a pain and not sure how accurate it is. You have to shake the vial after each drop you add and some of the contents spill out each time you open the cap. I’m wanting to add some beginner coral but taking my time. I am looking for some suggestions on reef test kits and help on what I should be testing and possibly dosing to get me where I want to be.
 

Thanks, to anyone who can spare me some time. 

[Clown79]

I have used the API test kits for CA and it matched the results to salifert and red sea. All three kits require drops being added and shaken/rotated after each.

Api's alk and nitrate were pretty close results to the other kits I have used as well.

 

Alkalinity is super important to corals. A good kit like Hanna Alk checker or Salifert is recommended. Api is fine but it doesn't give spot on numbers like 8.3.

 

0 nitrate and phos isn't optimal. Corals need nutrients. This may come with time since you now have livestock in the tank, for some it takes a bit more work to maintain nutrient levels in the tank, just as some have issues keeping their nutrients in the normal range.

 

For phos kits, API is pretty useless in reefs. It isn't a low range kit. Salifert or Hanna Checker are considered the best option for phosphates.

 

[rmalford]

Hello, I tried some frags last night. First timer here. GSP not opening yet. It’s been 2 weeks since WC. I was changing weekly but I thought I might try and build some nitrates. 3 fish, brittle star black, blue hermits, green emerald crab, snails, blood shrimp and tux urchin. Will order some Salifert tests soon. Hannah ULR phos is on its way. Checked parameters with API last night. I came home with LRS Fish Frenzy last night and will try it out soon along with some Reef Roids Nano. Any tips or possible corrective measures will be appreciated, thank you. I think my main concern is nutrients and calcium for coral right now. Placement of the coral is also on my mind. Parameters below. 
 

 

API

 

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 0

Alkalinity 12 

Calcium 340

Phosphate 0

 

[WV Reefer]

3 hours ago, rmalford said:

Hello, I tried some frags last night. First timer here. GSP not opening yet. It’s been 2 weeks since WC. I was changing weekly but I thought I might try and build some nitrates. 3 fish, brittle star black, blue hermits, green emerald crab, snails, blood shrimp and tux urchin. Will order some Salifert tests soon. Hannah ULR phos is on its way. Checked parameters with API last night. I came home with LRS Fish Frenzy last night and will try it out soon along with some Reef Roids Nano. Any tips or possible corrective measures will be appreciated, thank you. I think my main concern is nutrients and calcium for coral right now. Placement of the coral is also on my mind. Parameters below. 
 

 

API

 

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 0

Alkalinity 12 

Calcium 340

Phosphate 0

 

I think the tank looks good so far. I love the way it looks sitting up on the counter between the rooms. 😊

 

In my experience the two biggest challenges with this size tank are light and flow.

 

Flow-With the length of the tank it is almost impossible to not have a powerhead on each end of the tank.  I’ve tried several different configurations and settled on one at each end, directly across from each other.  I’ve had Jaebo powerheads, the current USA powerheads and currently have two mp10s. All of those pumps worked just fine but I wanted to have the cords out of the water since it sets on a bookshelf.....so I settled on the mp10s. 
 

Lights-it’s so easy to fry corals in such a shallow tank. I think mine are currently at 80% blue, 30% white, 40% red and 30% green. (I’d have to check to be sure but that’s pretty close)

 

your new frags look pretty good. Sometimes gsp takes awhile to open but if it doesn’t, just try moving it to a spot with more flow. 
 

 

[rmalford]

I feel like I have good flow. Whirlpool action and bottom is kept swept, surface at the far end is turning over etc.. I’m running the eFlux pump on stream mode at 2000gph. Woke up to 3 spots on the GSP extended this morning. Excuse the mess. I’ve been holding off on a WC to try and accumulate some nitrates. I’m still at 0. 

[rmalford]

GSP looks happy now

[WV Reefer]

3 minutes ago, rmalford said:

GSP looks happy now

Nice!

[rmalford]

Updated photos. Haven’t had any luck identifying the frag with the polyps retracted. There’s also another photo of it extended.

[mcarroll]

I wondered what happened to this thread!   Glad I noticed your post!

 

Looks like a Goniopora IMO.   (Alveopora is the other option, but I think they have a lot more "fingers" on their polyps and Gonio's have 12, as yours.)

[Ratvan]

Beautiful set up and some really nice corals

 

What is this by the way? Both beautiful and Strange AF (my criteria for additions)

[rmalford]

2 hours ago, Ratvan said:

Beautiful set up and some really nice corals

 

What is this by the way? Both beautiful and Strange AF (my criteria for additions)

This is the one I was asking about. I don’t know what it is. Mc has some good insight. 

[WV Reefer]

50 minutes ago, rmalford said:

This is the one I was asking about. I don’t know what it is. Mc has some good insight. 

Hydnophora possibly? It also looks like a large polyp Blasto but it has too many mouths. 

[Poodges]

Love the dimensions of this tank, your aqua scape and that the tank is front and center in your house. I wish mine was in a more visible part of the house.  Cool coral selection too.  Following along!

[rmalford]

[WV Reefer]

6 minutes ago, rmalford said:

Nice pics! 

[rmalford]