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Txplicit

Cycling tank issues

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Txplicit

So tank has been cycling since July 23.  No major ammonia spike, nitrite 0, nitrate got up to .30ppm,now down to .10ppm, phosphate up to .50ppm now .12ppm.  Started seeing diatoms, then GHA (or I thought).  Scraped it off glass and it shot around in pump current.  Now closer examination, I strongly believe it's byprosis.  To further complicate things, I notice aiptasia on the live rock.  

 

Since it's relative new, I am going to get 3% peroxide, scrape off the byprosis I can see (chip the LR if I have to) then dip it in a mixture of peroxide and ro/di for a few days, take them out and dry it in a dark/hot room.  Will that kill byprosis and aiptasia?  

 

Any suggestions?

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seabass

That should effectively kill any life (even the biofilter) on the live rock.  :mellow:  Hopefully no holdfasts or spores will survive.  While it should be effective, it'd be like starting with dry rock.  Some people even bleach the rock (versus peroxide).

 

Yeah, bryopsis is nothing that you want to fight (especially with coral in your tank).  I've found that a simple peroxide dip doesn't kill bryopsis like it would hair algae.  So if trying to save the live rock, breaking the algae off the rock makes sense.  You might even look into Fluconazole treatments.  Aiptasia is less of a concern, but you do want to get rid of it prior to adding livestock and coral.

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Clown79

I had that algae start in 1 of my tanks when it was passed cycling.

 

I did spot treatments with 3% peroxide. After a few treatments over 2 weeks, it was gone.

I used no more than 2ml at a time. 

 

Aiptasia x works great and is safe.

 

I would not do a dip for days in peroxide, you will kill all the good bacteria and life on the rocks.

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seabass
32 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

I did spot treatments with 3% peroxide. After a few treatments over 2 weeks, it was gone.  I used no more than 2ml at a time.

@Txplicit, since you don't have other livestock, you can be particularly aggressive.  You could up Clown79's protocol by removing the rock for treatment, using 35% peroxide to spot treat, letting it oxidize for a few minutes, rinsing it off with saltwater, then returning it to your tank.  As she said, multiple treatments may be necessary.  This should only affect treated areas, leaving the rest of the rock unaffected.

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Txplicit

Thanks seabass and clown79.  I just read all the post , forums, research, wiki about byprosis and don't want to risk any surviving spores inside crevices.  I saw the spot spray treatments but my concern was the spores in unseen crevices of live rock. I guess I can try that less dramatic approach first.  Since I have no livestock, I can always nuke later 😝. Do you guys recommend that I use a high peroxide content to rodi or tank water?  Spray rinse in rodi first then tank or just tank?  Then sun dry or just back into the tank?  My concern is two parts:

 

1. I want to pH balance the treated rocks before I put them back in as I will be treating like 20lbs and it may spike my parameters during cycling. Rodi rinse to initially drain the peroxide and tank water to reintroduce somewhat normal elements to the rock and also help rinse more peroxide.  Sundry to allow the peroxide to oxidize and evaporate as much as possible.

2. Immediately reintroducing may allow a foundation for free floating spores and/or aiptasia to re-embed onto the LR.

 

Regarding the aiptasia, I hope the treatment kills them.  Would save me time.  If not, I have friends in the medical field that I can get hypodermic needles and lemon juice/vinegar is cheap.  Lastly, I'm not inclined to buying the aiptasia/manjano wand to zap these buggers, but I will if I have to.

 

Clown79, thank you for the aiptasia x recommendation, and I did read about that along with kali treatments.  I just have this thing against putting chemicals into my tank fully running.  The disruption, the imbalances, throwing more money at it to rebalance then more to keep it balanced... keep it stable as natural as possible for sustainability.  I'm not opposed to dosing elements where needed, but anything else.... 🤢. (yes I know. Y'all thinking "wth do you think hydrogen peroxide is?) 🤣  that's why I am so cautious about rinsing as much off  as i can then drying.  Thoughts? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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seabass
33 minutes ago, Txplicit said:

Do you guys recommend that I use a high peroxide content to rodi or tank water?

Not sure what you mean.  Are you talking about making a diluted solution, or dosing it to the tank?  If you are spot treating areas with the rock out of the water, then apply the peroxide directly to the affected area.  If using 35% peroxide, be extremely careful as it will burn your skin and could potentially permanently damage your eyes.  An eyedropper can be used to place a few drops where you need them.  3% peroxide isn't nearly as strong so it's safer to work with, and available everywhere.  However, it might not be as effective either.

 

Let the peroxide oxidize in the air for a couple of minutes, but don't let the rock dry out (unless you are trying to kill everything).  Also, I don't recommend dosing your tank with any kind of peroxide as a method to treat algae.

 

43 minutes ago, Txplicit said:

1. I want to pH balance the treated rocks before I put them back in as I will be treating like 20lbs and it may spike my parameters during cycling. Rodi rinse to initially drain the peroxide and tank water to reintroduce somewhat normal elements to the rock and also help rinse more peroxide.  Sundry to allow the peroxide to oxidize and evaporate as much as possible.

  • I wouldn't worry about pH at this point.  I hardly care about pH at any point.
  • We were talking about treating small areas that are affected by bryopsis.  Are you talking about dipping the whole rock?  I'd avoid it if at all possible; but like you said, you can nuke it later on if you choose to.  For a rinse, I like to use saltwater as there may be beneficial non-bacterial life on the rocks that you want to preserve.
  • Again, don't let the rock dry out unless you have just nuked it.

 

48 minutes ago, Txplicit said:

2. Immediately reintroducing may allow a foundation for free floating spores and/or aiptasia to re-embed onto the LR.

That is a potential risk of spot treating.  You might look into Fluconazole treatments as a backup, just in case.  There are numerous effective treatments for aiptasia; I wouldn't obsess about them.  Pick one and start treating.

 

54 minutes ago, Txplicit said:

wth do you think hydrogen peroxide is?

It's H2O2 so one more oxygen molecule and it pretty much reduces to water.  Not really that scary.

 

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Clown79
2 hours ago, Txplicit said:

Thanks seabass and clown79.  I just read all the post , forums, research, wiki about byprosis and don't want to risk any surviving spores inside crevices.  I saw the spot spray treatments but my concern was the spores in unseen crevices of live rock. I guess I can try that less dramatic approach first.  Since I have no livestock, I can always nuke later 😝. Do you guys recommend that I use a high peroxide content to rodi or tank water?  Spray rinse in rodi first then tank or just tank?  Then sun dry or just back into the tank?  My concern is two parts:

 

1. I want to pH balance the treated rocks before I put them back in as I will be treating like 20lbs and it may spike my parameters during cycling. Rodi rinse to initially drain the peroxide and tank water to reintroduce somewhat normal elements to the rock and also help rinse more peroxide.  Sundry to allow the peroxide to oxidize and evaporate as much as possible.

2. Immediately reintroducing may allow a foundation for free floating spores and/or aiptasia to re-embed onto the LR.

 

Regarding the aiptasia, I hope the treatment kills them.  Would save me time.  If not, I have friends in the medical field that I can get hypodermic needles and lemon juice/vinegar is cheap.  Lastly, I'm not inclined to buying the aiptasia/manjano wand to zap these buggers, but I will if I have to.

 

Clown79, thank you for the aiptasia x recommendation, and I did read about that along with kali treatments.  I just have this thing against putting chemicals into my tank fully running.  The disruption, the imbalances, throwing more money at it to rebalance then more to keep it balanced... keep it stable as natural as possible for sustainability.  I'm not opposed to dosing elements where needed, but anything else.... 🤢. (yes I know. Y'all thinking "wth do you think hydrogen peroxide is?) 🤣  that's why I am so cautious about rinsing as much off  as i can then drying.  Thoughts? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Aiptasia x is used by many and safely if it's a few. The smaller the aiptasia the easier to treat.

 

I have yet to see an issue using it.

 

I have never nuked rocks, nor fully done a dip on them, never had to.

 

I would certainly never soak rocks in peroxide for long duration. Will it kill algae, yes, but everything else too.

 

I have spot treated directly in tank and I have dosed peroxide in tanks, with small quantities. Both have worked. I prefer spot treatment with a syringe.

 

Never used 35% peroxide, never even seen it on a store shelf here. Probably not sold here.

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Txplicit

Thank you both.  Gives me strong direction.  I have ordered 3% peroxide and will most likely mix it in a 1 to 2 ratio of ro/di water, spray rocks, then rinse it out in a small bucket of old tank water, then rinse in ro/di again before placing back.

 

I noticed little bits of bubbles on top of what looks like diatom.  Hoping it's not dino too.  Fml.  Let's throw all the problems at my cycling tank.  Funny thing was I did a thorough clean of everything in vinegar, soaked for 24 hours, scrubbed clean and dried for another 24.  Sand is new argonite bagged and sealed, equipment (pumps, hoses, filter media, lights, power heads, therm, ato is all new. I can only assume the LR from lfs is the culprit since it is cycling and everything else was as controlled and thorough as I can possibly be. LR was the only thing I didn't personally control.

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Clown79

Various algaes and aiptasia are normal, very common in new tanks.

 

Bubbles don't always mean dino, it can be micro bubbles in the water sitting on the diatoms.

 

 

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seabass
52 minutes ago, Txplicit said:

I have ordered 3% peroxide and will most likely mix it in a 1 to 2 ratio of ro/di water, spray rocks, then rinse it out in a small bucket of old tank water, then rinse in ro/di again before placing back.

Personally, I'd use 3% straight, and use an eyedropper to target specific areas, versus spraying a diluted solution over a larger area.  Plus, rinsing in RO/DI can be a problem for all the little micro-inverts in the live rock.  If you wish to rinse twice, I'd use saltwater.

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Txplicit
13 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Various algaes and aiptasia are normal, very common in new tanks.

 

Bubbles don't always mean dino, it can be micro bubbles in the water sitting on the diatoms.

 

 

I scraped a little off lastnight, didn't notice anything peculiar.  Hoping it's just micro bubbles pushed in from new powerhead to help move dead spots till my new return pump comes in.

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Txplicit
2 minutes ago, seabass said:

Personally, I'd use 3% straight, and use an eyedropper to target specific areas, versus spraying a diluted solution over a larger area.  Plus, rinsing in RO/DI can be a problem for all the little micro-inverts in the live rock.  If you wish to rinse twice, I'd use saltwater.

That's exactly what I was wondering. 3% is pretty diluted.  But again, chemicals... 

 

Do I rinse with old tank water? Read some people saying keep old tank water and no new water changes if I have dinos.  Crossing my fingers they are not dino.

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seabass
4 minutes ago, Txplicit said:

Do I rinse with old tank water? Read some people saying keep old tank water and no new water changes if I have dinos.  Crossing my fingers they are not dino.

Don't worry about dinos just yet.  Bubbles can be caused by all sorts of things that are common and natural.

 

You can use tank water or fresh saltwater.  It doesn't matter for rinsing.

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seabass
8 minutes ago, Txplicit said:

 But again, chemicals..

Chemistry is a big part of reefing.  But don't worry, you don't have to be a chemist (although sometimes it could help).  To an extent, I share your concerns.  I don't usually recommend dosing hydrogen peroxide directly into your tank, but a little residual peroxide won't hurt anything.

 

Chemicals are are part of reefing.  Your salt mix is more than just dehydrated seawater, it relies heavily on chemical reactions.  You just don't want to rely on dosing chemicals (or meds) to try and fix everything, especially when there may be a more natural solution.

 

You want to preserve the biodiversity if you can.  That's basically why we advised you against treating the entire rock, or drying it out (or even rinsing in RO/DI).

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mcarroll

Made a post here last night, or at least I tried. It ended up in another thread somehow.  LOL

 

In case it doesn't get moved to this thread where it belongs, here's a link to my post:

 

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mcarroll

(click the black and white arrow...if you click the title of the post you'll go to the wrong place in the thread)

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derf9h

I always used vinegar in a syringe to take care of my aiptasia. Haven't had any in the new tank but in previous tanks it worked like a charm. Inject that crap right into the belly of the beast, wait a day, and enjoy your success

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Txplicit

So went ahead and did the peroxide spray out side of the tank, sat them aside for 3 minutes, scrubbed a little , rinsed in old tank water, let dry, sprayed again, sat for 3 minutes, then rinse in new salt water, sat for 3 minutes and back to tank.  Algae looks all dead, byprosis isn't present, but I'm going to give it 48 hours before I take a pic and thoroughly examine the whole tank for progress.

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Txplicit

So tested ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/pH/salinity/calcium/alkalinity last night after I finished.  0/0/0/.1/8.2/1.023/480/10.5.  

 

Tested ammonia/phosphate/magnesium (salifert kit came home).  .12/.25/1390.

 

 As far as I can see, everything is normal and stabilizing.  I planned there would be a slight rise in ammonia/nitrate due to die off of algae.  Magnesium is healthy. Crossing my fingers now I can finish the cycle clean and healthy. 

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seabass

For a reef tank, you'll want specific gravity to be 1.025 to 1.026.

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mcarroll
15 hours ago, Txplicit said:

Crossing my fingers now I can finish the cycle clean and healthy.

Not sure what you're aiming for, but "clean" does not mean "healthy" in a cycle.  The opposite.

 

I think with the peroxide spray you've acheived some temporarily white rock....and set your tank back a few weeks or more with the elimination of any/all beneficial microorganisms on the treated areas.

 

It's not healthy to have rock that clean -- among other things, it invites settlement by pest algae.

 

You should find a way to inoculate your tank (again?) so it has more quantity and diversity of algae and other microbes.  Detritus, sand or rock from a healthy tank would do the trick nicely, but there are other options.  The more quantity and diversity, the more competition pest algae will have.

 

Next time algae grows, opt for mechanical control -- it's a long term solution and that's how Mo' Nature does it. 

 

If you do something like UV, micron filtration or peroxide spot treatments (not spray treatments), it should only be supplemental to the mechanical effort if even needed at all.  None of these are good as a primary method for control.

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Txplicit
On 8/16/2019 at 11:39 PM, seabass said:

For a reef tank, you'll want specific gravity to be 1.025 to 1.026.

Yea. I'm slowly bringing it  back up to 1.025.  It was 1.023 because I forgot to turn my ato off when I drained some water out.  

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Txplicit
10 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Not sure what you're aiming for, but "clean" does not mean "healthy" in a cycle.  The opposite.

 

I think with the peroxide spray you've acheived some temporarily white rock....and set your tank back a few weeks or more with the elimination of any/all beneficial microorganisms on the treated areas.

 

It's not healthy to have rock that clean -- among other things, it invites settlement by pest algae.

 

You should find a way to inoculate your tank (again?) so it has more quantity and diversity of algae and other microbes.  Detritus, sand or rock from a healthy tank would do the trick nicely, but there are other options.  The more quantity and diversity, the more competition pest algae will have.

 

Next time algae grows, opt for mechanical control -- it's a long term solution and that's how Mo' Nature does it. 

 

If you do something like UV, micron filtration or peroxide spot treatments (not spray treatments), it should only be supplemental to the mechanical effort if even needed at all.  None of these are good as a primary method for control.

Oh I understand the bio diversity and issues with peroxide full spray down.  Honestly though, what would be a better option if your tank is just cycling, no livestock? To try and figure alternatives or go straight to solving the byprosis problem?  I know it set me back a few weeks.  No biggie.  I have nothing but time and patience in this build.  I'd rather not run a uv just yet as during cycling, I don't need to be killing off bacteria that I may be trying to encourage growth accidentally.  And I did say "crossing my fingers my tank cycles clean AND healthy." 😗

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mcarroll

Yes to peroxide spraydown but no to UV??  

 

Yes it'll all work out, but there's also a path of least resistance.

 

UV is extremely passive...almost benign by comparison with the peroxide soak.

 

UV and micron filtration are even arguably naturalistic.

 

I guess I'm just sayin' is all. 😉 

 

 

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Txplicit

No I get what you're saying and I've given it thought long before as I was setting up hardware.  Just not really something I deemed necessary.  I mean I have a hydor slim skim, intank media basket running floss, chemipure elite, carbon, bio matrix and a fuge with chaeto and grow light.  Figure that's more than enough.  Besides, I'm weary that uv would stave chaeto growth.  

 

All and all, the tank is going through a diatom bloom this morning.  I'm hoping it's just diatoms this time.  We will see as it progresses.

 

Seems it is undergoing the cycle process again, and put me back a couple weeks as we mentions, and I planned for.  Testing daily and all seems as planned.

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