Does my fish have Ich or Velvet ?

[Isaacthedev]

I noticed these specs of whites of my Royal Gamma. I hope it’s not ich, but my clownfish died last night 😕 any idea of what this is 

[Clown79]

Could be ich or velvet.

 

Ich starts off with a few white easily distinguishable spots whereas velvet covers the body giving it a velvety appearance. 

 

Velvet is more deadly and kills swiftly.

 

What symptoms did the clown have?

[Isaacthedev]

Let me give some details 

symptoms :

clownfish was eating yesterday, breathing a bit fast at night but I didn’t think to the point to worry. He had a couple white Spots on the tail but that’s really it. I can’t tell what killed Poseidon, because by morning he was most eaten by hermits. 
 

royal gramma had these spots a few days ago, but even know it’s still out swimming and eating a lot. 
 

my third clownfish (Arya) is fine with no symptoms. 

[Humblefish]

I'm pretty sure that's velvet: 

 

[Humblefish]

You need to get ALL FISH into QT ASAP. Treating with copper will probably be your most feasible option: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/401731-copper-fish-medication-information/

 

En route to QT give the worst looking fish a 30 min bath using H2O2: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/405330-hydrogen-peroxide-fish-treatment-information/

 

You can just use 3% Hydrogen Peroxide from Walmart (easy to find). The H2O2 bath will knock off most of the trophonts, and will give the heavily infested fish a fighting chance in QT w/copper.

[GetPsyched2124]

Could be ich, velvet, or even both based upon those pictures and how quickly your clownfish died. Either way you'll want to get the gramma and any other fish you have into qt as soon as possible.

[Isaacthedev]

2 hours ago, Humblefish said:

You need to get ALL FISH into QT ASAP. Treating with copper will probably be your most feasible option: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/401731-copper-fish-medication-information/

 

En route to QT give the worst looking fish a 30 min bath using H2O2: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/405330-hydrogen-peroxide-fish-treatment-information/

 

You can just use 3% Hydrogen Peroxide from Walmart (easy to find). The H2O2 bath will knock off most of the trophonts, and will give the heavily infested fish a fighting chance in QT w/copper.

For velvet, do I leave my tank empty (no fish ) for 8 weeks?

[Isaacthedev]

1 hour ago, GetPsyched2124 said:

Could be ich, velvet, or even both based upon those pictures and how quickly your clownfish died. Either way you'll want to get the gramma and any other fish you have into qt as soon as possible.

So the gamma and other clownfish are still okay, I couldn't put them in a QT as I did not have one set up yet. It was set up this morning, with a bunch of marinepure balls and I will put the fish in tonight as soon as I am home. However, on the webcam for my tank both fish are fine still . the clown has no symptoms? Can it be something else? free floating debris? Can it be that my last clownfish died from a different cause and this is all a coincidence? Will put them in a QT anyways, 

[GetPsyched2124]

I doubt it's coincidence, but that's just my opinion. a seemingly healthy fish dying overnight while another one shows white spots all over the next day doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. when i had velvet, 4 of the fish i had at the time seemed fine the day prior to them dying except for my clown who toughed it out for 2 weeks before finally going.

 

[Isaacthedev]

5 minutes ago, GetPsyched2124 said:

I doubt it's coincidence, but that's just my opinion. a seemingly healthy fish dying overnight while another one shows white spots all over the next day doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. when i had velvet, 4 of the fish i had at the time seemed fine the day prior to them dying except for my clown who toughed it out for 2 weeks before finally going.

 

Agreed, But is it normal the clown is showing no spots at all

[GetPsyched2124]

1 hour ago, Isaacthedev said:

Agreed, But is it normal the clown is showing no spots at all

My gramma and rainford's goby died before my clown showed any symptoms.  my firefish didn't show any symptoms and then the next morning my fire shrimp was nibbling on it's carcass.

 

However, now that i remember, my first attempt at reefing about 5 years ago i had a 16 gallon with 2 clowns I had bought from Petco. one of them developed what looked to be ich as well as pop eye and died after about a week but the other clown never showed any symptoms of anything for the rest of the time i had him.

 

Time will tell for sure what it is. but with velvet, I've heard many times that once symptoms show the fish is most likely not going to make it.

[Humblefish]

8 hours ago, Isaacthedev said:

For velvet, do I leave my tank empty (no fish ) for 8 weeks?

6 weeks fallow for velvet; 76 days for Ich.

 

7 hours ago, Isaacthedev said:

Agreed, But is it normal the clown is showing no spots at all

Sometimes velvet free swimmers attack the gills first and once trophonts cause excess mucous to form inside the gills, the fish may die due to asphyxiation. Meaning, you may never see white dots or other visible physical symptoms on the fish.

[Clown79]

Its unlikely a coincidence and the fish being covered in spots is unlikely debris.

 

Velvet kills the fastest. 

 

I had one fish that showed symptoms within 24hrs and died. The other fish took 3 days to show symptoms and died in 24hrs.

 

Each fishes immune system differs, so some take longer to exhibit symptoms, the best course of action is quickly treating.

 

It's best to go longer with a fallow period than the minimum. So 6 weeks is the fallow period for velvet, best to do 8 weeks.

[mcarroll]

On 8/8/2019 at 4:30 AM, Clown79 said:

It's best to go longer with a fallow period than the minimum.

Indeed.  I agree...too much precision in the guideline IMO.  😉

 

Seems like "up to a few months" would be more like it....I think the supporting research shows a wide range of potential "correct days" up to 4+ months. 

 

I think it's still subject to judgement too, as any guideline would be.

 

On 8/6/2019 at 10:49 PM, Isaacthedev said:

I noticed these specs of whites of my Royal Gamma.

Your Gramma looks beat up....yes spots, but his tail is shredded. 

 

His immune system may be shot from being harassed....certainly from whatever caused the shredding.  The spots are important to identify and treat but are likely to be secondary to this cause.

 

The beat up Gramma coupled with the fact that your clown went down in the night without so much as a Mayday suggests he might've been caught by a night-opportunist.....hermits could do it if the clown was weak...otherwise another crab or a brittle star would be definitive suspects if you have any.

 

And of course if it was fighting that caused the shredding, then whoever was fighting is the suspect. 

 

The clown being RIP kinda makes him a prime suspect in the fighting...he could have been the cause, or just another recipient along with the Gramma if there's a third party. 

 

Your other clown sounds like the other main suspect.

 

Just a thought, but I'd expect a clown to outlast a gramma if this was all simply due to a progressive onslaught of ich or velvet. 

 

The Gramma being both beat up AND the survivor suggests something other than a parasitic cause at the root of things...though you'll have to address the parasites since things are progressed to the point they are.

 

How long have you had the fish in this tank?  Any other inhabitants?

 

How old is the tank?

[Isaacthedev]

16 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Indeed.  I agree...too much precision in the guideline IMO.  😉

 

Seems like "up to a few months" would be more like it....I think the supporting research shows a wide range of potential "correct days" up to 4+ months. 

 

I think it's still subject to judgement too, as any guideline would be.

 

Your Gramma looks beat up....yes spots, but his tail is shredded. 

 

His immune system may be shot from being harassed....certainly from whatever caused the shredding.  The spots are important to identify and treat but are likely to be secondary to this cause.

 

The beat up Gramma coupled with the fact that your clown went down in the night without so much as a Mayday suggests he might've been caught by a night-opportunist.....hermits could do it if the clown was weak...otherwise another crab or a brittle star would be definitive suspects if you have any.

 

And of course if it was fighting that caused the shredding, then whoever was fighting is the suspect. 

 

The clown being RIP kinda makes him a prime suspect in the fighting...he could have been the cause, or just another recipient along with the Gramma if there's a third party. 

 

Your other clown sounds like the other main suspect.

 

Just a thought, but I'd expect a clown to outlast a gramma if this was all simply due to a progressive onslaught of ich or velvet. 

 

The Gramma being both beat up AND the survivor suggests something other than a parasitic cause at the root of things...though you'll have to address the parasites since things are progressed to the point they are.

 

How long have you had the fish in this tank?  Any other inhabitants?

 

How old is the tank?

Thank you for the detailed answer. Tank is five months old, the clownfish is still alive , it shows spots sometimes. Other times it doesn’t , I’m removing it from the tank 

[mcarroll]

Any idea how the tail got shredded?

[Isaacthedev]

22 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Any idea how the tail got shredded?

Honestly no idea. I have a pistol shrimp, and two other clownfish but they never seemed to fight. Other than that I have some medium hermit crabs. Maybe it was them?

also here is a picture of my clownfish. Seems it’s bleeding. Any idea 

[mcarroll]

It's hard to tell in the photo....is that an open wound, or a bruise?

 

How is he acting?

 

 

[Humblefish]

@Isaacthedev That looks pretty bad. At a minimum I would give the fish a Methylene Blue bath: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/401839-methylene-blue-fish-medication-information/

 

I'm pretty sure he will also need to be moved into a QT. Dosing Kanaplex + Metroplex + Furan-2 would cover a wide range of bacterial & parasite issues.

[Isaacthedev]

On 8/17/2019 at 6:25 PM, Humblefish said:

@Isaacthedev That looks pretty bad. At a minimum I would give the fish a Methylene Blue bath: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/401839-methylene-blue-fish-medication-information/

 

I'm pretty sure he will also need to be moved into a QT. Dosing Kanaplex + Metroplex + Furan-2 would cover a wide range of bacterial & parasite issues.

So it’s been over a week, now the fish are both eating and no signs of disease. Is it safe to say they are cured?

[Humblefish]

5 hours ago, Isaacthedev said:

So it’s been over a week, now the fish are both eating and no signs of disease. Is it safe to say they are cured?

Are they in a QT (being treated) or still in the DT? If the latter then most likely they have acquired immunity to whatever pathogen(s) were afflicting them. However, if a parasite (e.g. Ich, velvet) or a worm (e.g. flukes) was at the root of the problem then they are now carriers capable of infecting other (nonimmune) fish. Whether or not these new fish can buildup immunity/resistance is anyone's guess.

[mcarroll]

Agreed...keep these guys and their tank healthy and whatever it was will be history sooner or later.

 

And take a few weeks (at least) between now and the next fish addition you make (if any).  (That's healthy advice with or without the potential parasite situation.)

6 hours ago, Isaacthedev said:

So it’s been over a week, now the fish are both eating and no signs of disease. Is it safe to say they are cured?

"Cured" and "Sick" aren't discreet, opposite or independent conditions, BTW.

 

Healthy fish have immunity that keeps everything out.  That has to be interrupted somehow for a fish to get sick.  That interruption is a stress of some kind.  Stressed fish will have lowered or destroyed immunity and will be susceptible to many potential pathogens -- whatever happens to be present. 

 

Sick fish that have immune systems too compromised to fight off a pathogen are the ones that need a cure. 

 

The cure is something that will be toxic. 

 

The idea is that the cure has to be toxic to the target organism BUT not toxic (or usually just not "as toxic") to the host. 

 

Then when the target organism has been reduced sufficiently the host's immune system should be able to rebuild and start to fulfill its function again, which is what eventually cures the fish and allows it to to regain full health. 

 

Pest elimination and healing are two of the immune system's main functions.

 

Feeding is the main day-to-day influence we have over the immune system. 

 

But the tank environment is also a strong factor.....to give a contrasting example, reef tanks area very healthy, whereas most QT tanks are very unhealthy for the residents.

 

So the fish's own immune system is responsible for both the sick and the healthy....the pathogen that shows up in between sick and healthy will always be coincidental and almost random.  The catch-to-wholesale-to-retail process the fish go through is what dictates the particular set of pathogens we see as "normal".

 

Your Fish

To be precise, which "both fish" of yours are we talking about -- the clown and gramma in the last couple of photos you posted?

 

The Gramma had spots because he appeared to have been harassed. 

 

Harassment has the effect of lowering his immune system. 

 

Did you actually witness them fighting later? 

 

If so have the two fighters since been separated?  What does the Gramma's tail look like now?

 

Also, what if anything did you do for the clown that appeared to be bleeding? 

 

Kinda looked like the fishy equivalent of a side-swipe:

...which if so would again suggest fighting of some kind going on, whether with a fish, crab or otherwise.

 

(I would not be too happy with a mystery around this.)