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Desperately need help with Lucy the Clown


KimmyB75

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This morning, I got up and everyone was waking up as usual. They all ate since today was feeding and Lucy ate really well. I did notice I did lose a snail and 2 shrimp decided to molt, but no big deal. About 2 hrs ago I noticed this behavior from Lucy that I have never seen. This corner is her spot and she does leave to swim around but she comes back and corner sits with her nose down and sometimes a bit on her side. Attached is a pic. Sorry for the quality. I had to take it from a distance since she swims to me if I get to close. Is she just being a clown or should I be concerned? Everyone else is fine. The Cardinals have continued the matting dance. I am going to test the water parameters when I get back. Had to go pick up more ammonia tests. I think mine are bad since several of them seem to fall apart. (my fault for buying dip sticks. Noob mistake) Did about 12% water change on Tuesday.

Lucy sick1.jpg

Lucy sick 2.jpg

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Her bottom looks inflamed to me... I would guess bad constipation/blockage or internal parasites. 

 

I use API general cure for internal parasites mixed with focus and frozen food. I use this in my reef with pumps off and target fed if she will eat again later. Otherwise she would need to be removed to a QT and the water dosed. 

 

Here is a helpful link and how to make the food at the bottom:

 

 

 

I did see one poster who's fish got blocked up and ended up having a hole form.... (this part sounds gross, sorry), a cleaner shrimp cleaned it up and it actually healed and the fish recovered. 

 

 

 

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I noticed her bottom seemed inflamed as well. Poop was white which seemed strange as well. She does seem to be breathing a bit heavier than normal but does not appear overly stressed. Unfortunately I don't pick up the QT tank till this weekend so I will have to attempt to target feed her. Thank you. She still swims around and then goes back to her spot and does this periodically. 

 

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7 minutes ago, KimmyB75 said:

I noticed her bottom seemed inflamed as well. Poop was white which seemed strange as well. She does seem to be breathing a bit heavier than normal but does not appear overly stressed. Unfortunately I don't pick up the QT tank till this weekend so I will have to attempt to target feed her. Thank you. She still swims around and then goes back to her spot and does this periodically. 

 

 

White poop could definitely indicate worms (sometimes it is white-ish from mysis though).

 

You could also try just prazipro, I was able to clear some bad worms in clownfish from petco years ago who would not eat because they were so bloated with worms. This is assuming it is worms. I use it in my reef tank and many others do but I can't sit here and tell you it is 100% reef safe, I have never had a loss but I don't know how it effects every form of life in the ocean. Definitely account for your actual water volume, the water displaced by rock. etc... you don't want to overdose, accidental underdose is better... prazipro is a little stronger than needed anyways. You need plenty of gas exchange. My softies would look mad for a few hours, especially mushrooms/xenia but then return to normal. May not be good for ornamental worms though. 

 

Just another idea if feeding doesn't work. 

 

 

Good luck!

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Ok so here is the plan of attack. We have conclude.d that we are pretty sure this is parasitic in nature and no one in town had the API Cure All in stock so I picked up a bottle of Microbe Lift Herbtana Natural Expellant for Parasitic Diseases and a bottle of Seachem Prime. The plan of attack is going to be 25% water changes twice a week and treat the whole tank for 10 days. Lucy is acting more normal again, but her rear is pretty blown out more than I have seen before. If it is parasitic, we should start seeing a difference within 3-5 days. If it is constipation, then we will figure something else out. I have decided that since we strongly suspect parasites, this batch of cardinal babies will not be a good idea to raise. Chances are they would either not make it, or be born with parasites and perpetuate a problem. There will be other babies and then I can be more prepared.

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Lucy update: The swelling has gone down to almost a normal size like it should be and she is acting her normal silly self again! No clue why her rear blew up like a balloon. Still going to treat everyone just to be safe. 

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27 minutes ago, KimmyB75 said:

Lucy update: The swelling has gone down to almost a normal size like it should be and she is acting her normal silly self again! No clue why her rear blew up like a balloon. Still going to treat everyone just to be safe. 

That is good, maybe she was able to pass it. Treating her is a good idea 🙂

 

I am pretty sure the herb stuff is a waste of money with no scientific basis behind it. It is supposed to boost immune system but a boosted immune system is not a cure for anything. If you haven't opened it I would just return it and get some general cure off amazon. Plus targeting with food is the best action if possible, eating it gets it right to the GI tract and doesn't stress out other inhabitants. 

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I was reading the linked article and was wondering if it would be a good idea to add in the Epsom salt (in a smaller than recommended quantity) to aid in expelling just in case it is a case of constipation? What do you all think? Or should I target feed just her a bit of made up laxative? I do have unflavored gelatin as a binding agent I could use.

   

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1 minute ago, KimmyB75 said:

I was reading the linked article and was wondering if it would be a good idea to add in the Epsom salt (in a smaller than recommended quantity) to aid in expelling just in case it is a case of constipation? What do you all think? Or should I target feed just her a bit of made up laxative? I do have unflavored gelatin as a binding agent I could use.

   

Cooked peas without the skin (the mushy part) + epsom salt would be the ideal choice for a laxative. It is prune juice for fish 😛

 

I would not use a human product on a fish, may interact differently. 

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I need to look up to see if I can use like the peas that come in the single serve containers as I really do not want to make another trip into town unless I really have to lol. The article said the binding agent needed to be something like Seachem Focus, Agar, or unflavored gelatin. Haven't made Agar since attempting to propagate Orchids, but I like the pea and epsom salt better. She may just eat the pealed pea on its own since she's a pig lol.

 

 

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The other option was dosing the whole tank with Epsom salt at 1 tablespoon/5gal. Problem with that is then EVERYONE will be pooping lol At least I will be doing water changes twice a week for the next 2-3 weeks

 

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So another question. If I decide to dose the whole tank with Epsom will it affect my specific gravity of the tank? I think the peas are a safer option to start.

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Lucy update: She is way better. I am starting to believe it may have actually been constipation after all. She shared with the fire goby's in a feast of 3 peas and almost immediately (like less than 2 minutes later) was pooping very large chunks. Felt pretty bad for her cause I knew that had to hurt coming out. It was a white/tan color and she pooped a couple more times smaller pieces. I left the Filter off so she can swim and move to get to as much food as possible and help with moving that poop on down. The activity should help the constipation and with the flow and her feeling bad, all she wanted to do was hide.

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I would keep an eye on her poop. If it goes back to being brown, no worries. But if you continue to see white stringy poo that probably means she has either internal parasites or worms. For some reason every clownfish I've been getting in lately has tapeworms.

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8 hours ago, Tamberav said:

a boosted immune system is not a cure for anything.

I dunno whether you're doubting the immune system or whether herbal treatments "work".

 

Many hard-core meds get made out to be panaceas for various problem aspects of our hobby but that's not true for any of them either.

 

An herbal treatment not much different than anything else we dose in the tank: we have to know how to use it properly...be able to test for it ideally.  

 

If you ignore that rule, dosing something you don't know how to use, then "not a cure" is your best case scenario for just about any treatment.  

 

In a case where it's actually called for, try using copper without knowing how to use it.  

 

Either no-cure or worse are both likely.  Doing nothing probably has only slightly worse odds or maybe better....copper is nasty, nasty stuff when OD'd.  Gaining a "cure" would be no more than random chance.  

 

That's an example of why we all make such a big deal out of that rule.  Hopefully the OP will choose to heed label instructions if this herbal stuff gets used.  🙂 

 

"The use of immunostimulating herbs in fish. An overview of research" gives a decent review of herbs and how they work with the immune system for anyone reading who's only every heard about this topic from inside the hobby.  

 

It's from 2009 and is most recent review I could find that's actually available online to read.  

 

Check out more current research on the general subject from this year too.

 

Herbals have their uses.   For example, could be part of a prophylactic treatment for new fish or for fish that you're worried about because one of them died, but where the remaining fish appear healthy, etc.

 

A case like this thread where there's no clear target left and the fish appears to be recovering isn't a bad candidate, hypothetically speaking.

 

But, if our hypothetical fish looked like one of these pictured below... 

image.png.9e9c5722754e83ded53f7aedffe1b946.pngimage.png.c7082e7a8dccc85ae3a42b4755b0599f.png

...and all we do is reach for an herbal treatment...

 

...then don't blame the herbs, we're just doing it wrong! 😄

 

Would be nice if they'd say what's in these herbal treatments tho...some brands do. 

 

7 hours ago, KimmyB75 said:

Lucy update: She is way better. I am starting to believe it may have actually been constipation after all.

 

Great news!   Constipation is fairly common as aquarium fish ailments go, so don't be surprised if that's all it turns out to be.  And seems like you're prepared if it turns out otherwise!  🙂 

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Lucy update: Thank Goodness it was just a simple case of constipation. I am not a huge fan of herbal remedies, but at the time that was all that was available short of a little over an hr drive for a maybe in stock API Cure-all. I really do not like to dose anything at all if I can help it. Coming from a medical background, I know from experience that people take herbal remedies to light hearted when they can sometimes cause more damage than good if not researched properly. 

 

I ended up feeding her mashed peas over a few days and even her vent swelling went to normal. Her poo went back to normal after she evacuated giant plugs of poop. I felt so sorry for her. I know how it feels lol. Even the Fire Goby's enjoyed the peas. The shrimp was not to thrilled lol.  I was researching and found that it is a common issue with Clowns. Guess she will get a helping of peas about once a week from here on to prevent this from happening again. I feed the omnivore food, but maybe it doesn't have enough fiber in it for her. Wonder if I put in a clip of greens that Tangs usually eat if she would try it and see if that would keep her from getting backed up again or just go with the peas once a week idea since i know she eats them.

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If you can switch to whole frozen or live foods this problem will not happen.

 

It's predominantly a side effect of using processed foods — not necessarily just the amount of fiber either.

 

You should be able to discontinue peas — nobody does this routinely.  Constipation may be fairly common as far as ailments go, but it is not common at all in general. 

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