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Thrassian Atoll

WATERBOX 130.4 ~ Lineatus Fairy Wrasse Swimming Issues

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Opotter

 

Humblefish’s section on wrasses and sand

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/difficult-fish-to-qt-guide.640256/#post-6412098

 

First page of this post is where I think I read folks mentioning (what I think is) your fish and the QT issue.  I just read it within the last couple of days and thought of you when I did.  You had just posted that beautiful photo!

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what-is-one-fish-you-have-or-had-that-youll-never-buy-again.649476/

 

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Opotter

In other news, glad the clearview thing worked out!!!  Sounds like it was just a misunderstanding, happens sometimes with text and email.

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Thrassian Atoll
8 hours ago, mcarroll said:

It sounds like a fish would really appreciate the minor updates to your quarantine that I suggested if all you have is PVC caves.  

 

If budget is too tight, I definitely get it.

 

But a small set of fake plants will only run ya a few bucks.  

 

And how much do a few little chunks of live rock or a scoop of live sand cost where you are?  Can you borrow or steal a little from the display tank?  Or a friend?  

 

Compared with the cost of that wrasse ($xxx.xx) it's a relatively small cost for both of those add-ons...close to $0.00 by comparison. 😉 

 

It's awesome that you have such a large tank to provide for this function! 40-50 Gal is about ideal if you ask me.  What I have used most of the time.

 

I wonder if you had a chance to read the acclimation doc on the SA link?  Sounds like you were talking about other sources but not that one...but I could be wrong?

 

The author (a long-time breeder and wholesaler) does address the concerns you stated with good detail....should help make you more confident about your plan if nothing needs tweaking, or maybe even give you a new idea or two. (Let me know if you agree with them or not.)

 

Good luck!

 

(Medicating fish is a whole other topic, BTW.  Without making a whole other post all I can say is to be careful, use your own judgement and play it conservative.  Remember that the fishes immune system is what's really doing all the work...and that most meds have a negative impact on immune function.  Use meds wisely.  

 

I guess that was basically a whole other post. Fail!  LOL)

I could throw some fake plants in there for sure.  I didn’t think of that.   I thought the general consensus was to not have sand or rock due to chemical absorption if I have to medicate?  Let’s say I have to treat with copper, you wouldn’t want that stuff lingering around right? Or would I have to change the rock and sand everytime I get a new fish to put in QT?  I am going to have to have 3-4 more fish after this go into the QT eventually.

 

4 hours ago, Opotter said:

@Humblefish had a really good post on QT and adding a bit of sand, etc to keep a wrasse much more relaxed and happier in QT.  *If I remember correctly* I think the lineatus specifically some people on R2R have described as hard to QT and deaths from “spinal injuries” in QT due to hitting the glass.  No I have no idea if that is even possible and I have NO experience with wrasses, but sounds like they might be flighty in QT if that is a legit thing? I will see if I can find the posts and link you to them so you can read 😉

I know the Lineatus is a rock dweller/mucus cacoon maker and not a sand sleeper.  Same as my 4 line wrasse.  I have heard of fish doing hitting the glass and breaking their necks though.  

 

 

The fish is here. I am floating the bag now.  I took a needle and got a sample of the water from the bag.  The salinity is 1.019.  Not too far off from my 1.020 I have it now.  I am going to drop it down to the 1.019 in a little bit.  The lights are off in the room pretty much, just enough that I can see and I’ll leave the tank light off today.  

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Ratvan
2 minutes ago, Thrassian Atoll said:

I could throw some fake plants in there for sure.  I didn’t think of that.   I thought the general consensus was to not have sand or rock due to chemical absorption if I have to medicate?  Let’s say I have to treat with copper, you wouldn’t want that stuff lingering around right? Or would I have to change the rock and sand everytime I get a new fish to put in QT?  I am going to have to have 3-4 more fish after this go into the QT eventually.

Change out the rock and sand each time. 

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Opotter
42 minutes ago, Thrassian Atoll said:

I know the Lineatus is a rock dweller/mucus cacoon maker and not a sand sleeper.  Same as my 4 line wrasse.  I have heard of fish doing hitting the glass and breaking their necks though.

Didn’t even think of that possibility.  I knew some were rock sleepers but it slipped my mind that yours could be.  I  should have known you would be on it with the research though 😉 

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Thrassian Atoll

I do know the lineatus seems to be on the harder side of wrasses to keep alive and healthy though and that their lifespan isn’t very long.  

 

 

Fish is alive and in QT!  I’ll let him

settle in today without the lights on and hopefully can get a photo tomorrow of him.

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Opotter

Wakey.. wakey!  Can we see the new wrasse yet?  🤩🤗

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Elizabeth94

Yes, lets see this fish! 

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Thrassian Atoll

Haha!  Let me see if I can get a picture.   I don’t even know what he looks like yet.  

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Thrassian Atoll

It looks like he’s still got a ways to go to become a super male.  On LiveAquaria he’s categorized as a large young male.  I don’t know how long it will take for him to color up more.  E06B2EB4-D098-4DB5-A35B-AF55B3896524.thumb.jpeg.fc3760ee5c649ec56cad4c8c9acfbbd8.jpeg

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Ratvan

Nice colours on him so far, looking forwards to seeing him develop

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Thrassian Atoll
2 minutes ago, Ratvan said:

Nice colours on him so far, looking forwards to seeing him develop

Yeah, not too bad.  I wasn’t expecting a super male or anything yet.  I just wanted a male for sure.

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Opotter

He is a good looking guy!!!!  More  will come with time!  He already has a ton though!

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Thrassian Atoll
21 minutes ago, Opotter said:

He is a good looking guy!!!!  More  will come with time!  He already has a ton though!

I am glad to hear that!  This is the first time I have ever seen one in person.  It’s hard not buying a wysiwyg too.  Divers den didn’t have any.  I was a little weary pulling the trigger from just LA.

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Thrassian Atoll

He’s definitely shy, that’s for sure.  After taking the photo he’s been hiding in between all of my pvc in the tank.  I’ll throw a tiny bit of frozen mysis in there and see if he comes out when I feed the main tank.

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Elizabeth94

Im sure he will color up a bit more once he settles in. Even so, he is beautiful already.

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Thrassian Atoll

I ended up buying a few different medications just to have on hand because I didn’t have any. I bought Copper Power, prazipro, Metroplex and API General Cure.  

 

I am going to proactively use the General Cure in a few days with 1 dose wait a couple days, 25% water change and add some carbon, and then another dose 5-7 days later and water change and carbon.  This seems to be the easiest on wrasses and will help get rid of flukes and other parasites if he has any.  

 

I am not going to use the prazi or metro.  I have never used the copper either and I don’t think I want to proactively use it here.  Maybe if he shows signs of ich down the road.

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mcarroll
On 9/24/2019 at 11:22 AM, Ratvan said:

Change out the rock and sand each time. 

There's no need, generally speaking. 😉

 

On 9/24/2019 at 11:20 AM, Thrassian Atoll said:

I could throw some fake plants in there for sure.  I didn’t think of that.   I thought the general consensus was to not have sand or rock due to chemical absorption if I have to medicate?  Let’s say I have to treat with copper, you wouldn’t want that stuff lingering around right? Or would I have to change the rock and sand everytime I get a new fish to put in QT?  I am going to have to have 3-4 more fish after this go into the QT eventually.

THE ROCK

Either keep it in the QT running if there's more livestock expected, or one could even recycle the rock back into the display after a decent wash and scrub in a bucket of clean saltwater.

 

Most of the concerns we've read are completely hypothetical.  Where a concern has been investigated it was proven to be over-emphasized.  (Look at Humble's QT with sand post for a recent example!)

 

(Fear has that effect....making things like hitchhikers and parasites seem bigger and worse and more real than they are in actuality.)

 

One thing none of the things you've read take into account is dilution.  (Nothing I've seen, anyway.)

 

Even presuming that your medicine is "sticky" to the live rock (which is variable and debatable), what is the maximum quantity of the med that could possible be transported on the surface of a small quantity of live rock?

 

After you ponder that (it's SMALL!!!!), consider that the amount of rock in your QT is perhaps 10% or even only 1% of total amount of rock in your display.  

 

That's one level of dilution.

 

Then consider that tiny quantity dilluted into the total volume of water in your reef.  

 

Another level of dilution. 

 

Then consider your usage of activated carbon and employment of water changes and any other forms of "export" on the display which would further reduce that amount.

 

Two more levels of dilution.

 

That's a lot of dilution!!

 

All things considered, the effect of that QT rock on a healthy display would have to be infinitesimal – right next to zero.  

 

If there were effects, they would be more or less confined to that rock where the med was bound.  Ie. you might have more algae growth there....so keep it out of the light if that's a problem.

 

All that said, there are some truly heinous medications out there.....undoubtedly some can probably increase your odds of having a disaster if some gets in your tank.  Nothing you've mentioned is like that AFAIK though.

 

Which brings me to...

 

THE MEDS

 

1 hour ago, Thrassian Atoll said:

I bought Copper Power, prazipro, Metroplex and API General Cure.  

General Cure = Prazi + Metro so there are some duplicates there, along with copper.

 

The Prazi. half of General Cure is said to be not great for wrasses.  The other half (Metro.) also has a sensitive fish warning.

 

Dunno if you're already 100% committed to prophylactic treatment, but if not, I would encourage you to employ just observation if possible.

 

(And add those plants and a chunk of healthy live rock sooner than later.....stress is cumulative with time.)

 

If astute observation is not possible (eg you're gone at work all day) then there could be an argument for prophylactic treatment since he was purchased sight-unseen.  

 

But if you could watch/observe instead, that would be VERY ideal.  

 

Especially since he is apparently doing well so far....no indications of trouble.  (Right?)

 

I would read about the advers effects and drug interactions on Wikipedia to get a better idea for your own understanding of how they each work and why fish might seem "sensitive" to the treatment...reactions are not just a random thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praziquantel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronidazole

 

Also, in case you haven't already been there...

 

From his Praziquantel page:

On 12/6/2018 at 12:58 PM, Humblefish said:

If you are treating a known prazi sensitive species (e.g. wrasse), you can run carbon or perform a water change 24 hours after dosing in order to limit exposure time. While praziquantel does remain active in the water column for up to 72 hours, only 24 hours are needed for it to eradicate external worms. Don’t forget to still do the second round though!

 

@Humblefishmay want to add to this link since some times has passed, but his writeup specific to general cure here https://lareefclub.com/community/threads/api-general-cure.42267/ comes with lots of question marks and no warm fuzzies about the product.

 

On 12/7/2018 at 8:45 PM, Humblefish said:

Cons/Side Effects – Certain fish seem to have a negative reaction/side effects to metronidazole; however this is rare.

(I assume you've read or heard all the "pro" parts or your wouldn't already have the meds in-hand. 😉 )

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Thrassian Atoll
3 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

There's no need, generally speaking. 😉

 

THE ROCK

Either keep it in the QT running if there's more livestock expected, or one could even recycle the rock back into the display after a decent wash and scrub in a bucket of clean saltwater.

 

Most of the concerns we've read are completely hypothetical.  Where a concern has been investigated it was proven to be over-emphasized.  (Look at Humble's QT with sand post for a recent example!)

 

(Fear has that effect....making things like hitchhikers and parasites seem bigger and worse and more real than they are in actuality.)

 

One thing none of the things you've read take into account is dilution.  (Nothing I've seen, anyway.)

 

Even presuming that your medicine is "sticky" to the live rock (which is variable and debatable), what is the maximum quantity of the med that could possible be transported on the surface of a small quantity of live rock?

 

After you ponder that (it's SMALL!!!!), consider that the amount of rock in your QT is perhaps 10% or even only 1% of total amount of rock in your display.  

 

That's one level of dilution.

 

Then consider that tiny quantity dilluted into the total volume of water in your reef.  

 

Another level of dilution. 

 

Then consider your usage of activated carbon and employment of water changes and any other forms of "export" on the display which would further reduce that amount.

 

Two more levels of dilution.

 

That's a lot of dilution!!

 

All things considered, the effect of that QT rock on a healthy display would have to be infinitesimal – right next to zero.  

 

If there were effects, they would be more or less confined to that rock where the med was bound.  Ie. you might have more algae growth there....so keep it out of the light if that's a problem.

 

All that said, there are some truly heinous medications out there.....undoubtedly some can probably increase your odds of having a disaster if some gets in your tank.  Nothing you've mentioned is like that AFAIK though.

 

Which brings me to...

 

THE MEDS

 

General Cure = Prazi + Metro so there are some duplicates there, along with copper.

 

The Prazi. half of General Cure is said to be not great for wrasses.  The other half (Metro.) also has a sensitive fish warning.

 

Dunno if you're already 100% committed to prophylactic treatment, but if not, I would encourage you to employ just observation if possible.

 

(And add those plants and a chunk of healthy live rock sooner than later.....stress is cumulative with time.)

 

If astute observation is not possible (eg you're gone at work all day) then there could be an argument for prophylactic treatment since he was purchased sight-unseen.  

 

But if you could watch/observe instead, that would be VERY ideal.  

 

Especially since he is apparently doing well so far....no indications of trouble.  (Right?)

 

I would read about the advers effects and drug interactions on Wikipedia to get a better idea for your own understanding of how they each work and why fish might seem "sensitive" to the treatment...reactions are not just a random thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praziquantel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronidazole

 

Also, in case you haven't already been there...

 

From his Praziquantel page:

 

@Humblefishmay want to add to this link since some times has passed, but his writeup specific to general cure here https://lareefclub.com/community/threads/api-general-cure.42267/ comes with lots of question marks and no warm fuzzies about the product.

 

(I assume you've read or heard all the "pro" parts or your wouldn't already have the meds in-hand. 😉 )

I can definitely observe for a while.  I am in no rush.  Fish seems fine.  No signs of any issues. He’s just been completely hiding after I got the photo earlier.  

 

Yeah, I know the general cure has a little bit of both with a reduced amount of Prozi.  I read that wrasses aren’t too fond of prozi itself but the general cure is a lot safer.  

 

What are your thoughts on mixing something with food?  I think my biggest worry in general getting fish is intestinal worms.  That seems like something that’s pretty common with newly purchased fish.

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Tamberav

He is purdy!

 

I mixed general cure per humblefish instructions using the binder agent and my wrasses did fine with it. I honestly treated them all with prazi too but was careful not to overdose. I let them settle in and eat first for a few days. 

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Humblefish

There is updated info regarding General Cure here: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/401853-praziquantel-fish-medication-information/

 

There are pros & cons of using GC vs. Prazipro. GC is better tolerated by most species, and you don't run the risk of a bacterial bloom since GC does not contain a solubilizing agent. However, Prazipro is more potent/effective because it contains a higher concentration of praziquantel: 2.5 mg/L vs. 2.0 mg/L.

 

 

 

 

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Thrassian Atoll
8 hours ago, Tamberav said:

He is purdy!

 

I mixed general cure per humblefish instructions using the binder agent and my wrasses did fine with it. I honestly treated them all with prazi too but was careful not to overdose. I let them settle in and eat first for a few days. 

 

1 hour ago, Humblefish said:

There is updated info regarding General Cure here: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/401853-praziquantel-fish-medication-information/

 

There are pros & cons of using GC vs. Prazipro. GC is better tolerated by most species, and you don't run the risk of a bacterial bloom since GC does not contain a solubilizing agent. However, Prazipro is more potent/effective because it contains a higher concentration of praziquantel: 2.5 mg/L vs. 2.0 mg/L.

 

 

 

 

 

So what are both of your thoughts on proactively treating a new arrival without seeing any issues?  Basically, give me the rundown on when you receive a new fish.  

 

This is honestly the first fish I have even QT so I am brand new to this whole process.

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Thrassian Atoll

Thanks everyone for the discussion as well.  Lots of good information.  Post up your PM you sent to me @mcarroll.  Tons of information and your thoughts on the subject.  

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Tamberav

I always treat mine for flukes and intestinal parasites but I don't treat with copper unless needed. Some treat every fish...some treat for nothing and don't QT. It is a personal decision...all have risks.

 

I do not treat for anything immediately though...I want the fish eating well first. Prazi can suppress appitite but it's never been an issue if I get the fish eating greedily first.

 

I use a conditioning tank that is natural and have a hospital tank on standby. Fake plants and such would be helpful for your QT. 

 

I usually leave the fish in my conditioning tank for like 2 months and get them eating many different foods and super fat since I can overfeed and not care as my tank is cycled.

 

 

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mcarroll
10 hours ago, Thrassian Atoll said:

I can definitely observe for a while.  I am in no rush.  Fish seems fine.  No signs of any issues. He’s just been completely hiding after I got the photo earlier.  

 

Yeah, I know the general cure has a little bit of both with a reduced amount of Prozi.  I read that wrasses aren’t too fond of prozi itself but the general cure is a lot safer.  

 

What are your thoughts on mixing something with food?  I think my biggest worry in general getting fish is intestinal worms.  That seems like something that’s pretty common with newly purchased fish.

You're on the right track with that level of patience! 👍  

 

It can all seem to be so common and so worth worrying about when you just read about it.   I remember the feelings all too well myself!!

 

Amyloodinium (velvet), Cryptocarrion (ich), Brooklynella, et al (now intestinal worms) have all been pumped up at various times in the hobby as "affecting all fish" or being at the level of a hobby emergency or whatever.  There has historically been a lot of inflammatory rhetoric around things like fish disease in the hobby (especially on other sites....you can probably guess which ones).

 

I've never seen epdemic levels of any of them, even working at the retail level where I handled a dozen boxes of saltwater fish a week for years on end.  I could just be lucky...but I don't think luck works that way. 😉

 

My experience is not necessarily a contradiction of anything else you've read.  

 

Reality just dictates that everyone's experience is not the same because everyone's circumstances aren't the same.

 

Which shows one bad assumption that is built into the "affects all fish" viewpoint.

 

The story on fish disease is more complex than "it's everywhere, just nuke the fish and ask questions later" which is pretty common guidance.  

 

On what we read: (kind of a tangent)

Spoiler

Consider how much have you read about fish health? Vs how much have you read about fish disease? ...or fish medications?  Knowing about fish health doesn't make you well-informed about parasites or medications.  Knowing about fish medications doesn't make you well-informed about fish disease or fish health.  Knowing about parasites doesn't make you well-informed about fish meds or fish health.  I think anyone would naturally think a lot more about a subject they've read more about...and they can hardly act on knowledge they don't have in the other areas.  A balance of knowledge is key, but there are only 24 hours in a day – you can't read everything.  So prioritize your reading:  Knowing about fish health is of primary importance, for hopefully obvious reasons.  Knowing about fish diseases is a secondary concern, so you can recognize signs of the common ones if your system has a problem.  Knowing about medications is a tertiary concern, as this knownledge is only needed in the extremely rare case where fish is dying.  Tertiary doesn't mean unimportant, just meams "third". 😉

 

To put it in a nutshell, in reality things are always different for you than what you read.  Right?  

(Old quote: "Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see."  Possibly Ben Franklin.  😄)

 

Diseases don't "affect all fish" outside of very specific and extreme circumstances.

 

Diseases arise for specific reasons which are not universally present in every circumstance.

 

Know those reasons and how to ameliorate them (vs default-treating pests which may not even be present) and you're more prepared for battle so to speak than most folks who are still stocking their tanks.  

 

This is knowledge you mostly get from reading about fish health – avoid killing their immune system, or build it up if necessary, and you can avoid disease altogether.  And there are examples of folks who do this.  But sometimes the fishes health can be decided for you, before you even see them, and not always in a favorable way.  Hence the importance of the two other areas of reading!

 

Remember when prioritizing everything that it all (the pathogens, the medications, etc) revolves around the fish and it's immune system, which are both tied to the quality and stability of the surrounding ecosystem.  Not med-/pathogen-centric.  Seems like you're already doing this, more or less, just keep doing more of it!  👍 

 

(This is good because potential-pathogens otherwise would have you totally outmanned and outgunned....you and the meds are only there as a potential aid to the fish and it's immune system, if it becomes necessary.)  

 

 

 

CASE: INTESTINAL WORMS

A fraction of fish with worms self-heal without direct help.

 

A large fraction of the few cases of "white poops" (which I'm assuming is what you're referring to as "intestinal worms") that have been investigated turned out not even to be disease-related.

 

Even when there are "white poops" and the med is given and the fish "clears up", almost none of those cases ever get verified as worms.    Those fish would "clear up" anyway if they didn't actually have worms, making it look like a "cure".  

 

So even just considering those few points, it's very, very hard to tell how common intestinal worms really are.


To me "white poops" seem about as popular as the foods which can make "white poops" (eg mysis shrimp)...pretty coincidental, right?  Right. 😉 

 

Easy for the novice to confuse what's happening and to begin unnecessary treatments when they read about a disease that coincidentally has white poops associated.  

 

Especially if they don't verify what they're seeing.

 

Aside on Fish Disease

This ambiguity and lack of good process is unfortunately the case for most fish pathogens in our hobby.  There is just no significant tradition of identifying our target organisms before treating them.  

 

This is a phenomena that is more or less unique to our branch of aquaculture....ornamental display.  For other branches of aquaculture it is apparently the norm to ID first, treat second....from reading, exceptions seem rare.  

 

That's true even though no other branch of aquaculture has the capabilities we have for intense, continuous observation that can help discern the "sick" from the healthy, or catch a disease early in its outbreak.  

 

Even as hamstrung as they are in this regard, the other branches are still more conservative with their meds.

 

My hope is that with steady advocacy toward the usage of microscopes (I try to do my part!) that we'll someday be at least on a par with the algae hunters among us.....they use scopes all the time by comparison, and they aren't even trying to save anything's life.   Someday maybe we'll even equal our peers in the other branches of aquaculture and be as agressive in fish disease ID as we are in treatment.

 

P.S.  I wouldn't contradict anyone's instructions if you're going to medicate.  IMO follow the manufacturer's instructions.  If you're smart enough to know that the folks selling the product got it wrong on their instructions, then I certainly can't add to that discussion.  My hope is that meds don't become necessary.  It should be rare that they do.

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