Getting frustrated with this nitrogen cycle! Help

[blasterman]

Personally I wish we'd eliminate cycling threads all together because they are a waste of resources and internet bandwidth. Post a sticky or two and be done with it. With a new tank what happens in the 2-4 months *after* the initial ammonia cycle is 100000000000x more critical, especially for corals because this is when individual tanks start to deviate and aquire different biological masses and some of these aren't friendly to corals. Cycling is inevitable. A stable, coral ready tank is not.

 

Talking about cycling is a lot like debating if you drop an object how long does it take to hit the floor. It will eventually hit the floor - when you hear it hit the floor (ammo and nitrite read 0) then you are done. Those of you advocating using dumb methods like cycling with dead shrimp and other idiot practices don't help much though. Either start with healthy live rock, or if the tank is starting fresh with dry rock use liquid ammonia to start. 

 

Bacteria colonies will eventually hit an equilibrium keeping ammo and nitrite in check.  It's not some delicate process you need laboratory conditions for. It happens in dirt...garbage cans...volcanoes...everywhere. The piont is..you can't stop a nitrogen cycle from happening. Just be patient.

 

As for cycling a tank with corals...I'll take that bet because I've done it. Corals don't care about NH3 levels because they don't have lungs and don't respirate oxygen. Ammonia actually stimulate zooxanthellae in corals. It's the instability of higher level bacteria / algae colonies that occur after the initial cycle (dynos, etc) that can hurt corals.

[j.falk]

22 hours ago, Clown79 said:

First off I don't spam the site.

I am a member and come on here to help others. 

Maybe I have no clubs here or fellow hobbyists around me so this is my method of hanging out with other ppl who have the same hobby...

 

 

Second I never said you were wrong. Please point out where I said you were wrong?...you can't because i didn't. You perceived it.

 

I documented my experience. The point of this site is helping others, chatting, giving out experience.

 

You know what irks me- people who are rude & call long time members who put in a lot of time to help others spammers. Its insulting.

 

Those same ppl have no issue getting help when they need it from the so called spammers.

Where did I say in my post that you were one of the people I was referring to?  You can't, because I didn't.  You perceived it.  My reply was a general statement on what I see going on here at Nano-Reef.com on a regular basis...but I do find it very rude when someone posts good sound advice for a new person to try and help them have long term success and then another person comes along and says, "You can go ahead and do it this way....because I'm doing it and it's working out just fine for me!"  Just because that other person is doing it doesn't make it viable for newer hobbyists to do the same thing.  A person's experience ultimately plays a huge factor in the outcome of the situation.  New people don't have the experience or knowledge base that long term hobbyists do.  They aren't able to tell when things are starting to go downhill and know exactly what to do to correct the situation before things turn from bad to worse.   

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, j.falk said:

Where did I say in my post that you were one of the people I was referring to?  You can't, because I didn't.  You perceived it.  My reply was a general statement on what I see going on here at Nano-Reef.com on a regular basis...but I do find it very rude when someone posts good sound advice for a new person to try and help them have long term success and then another person comes along and says, "You can go ahead and do it this way....because I'm doing it and it's working out just fine for me!"  Just because that other person is doing it doesn't make it viable for newer hobbyists to do the same thing.  A person's experience ultimately plays a huge factor in the outcome of the situation.  New people don't have the experience or knowledge base that long term hobbyists do.  They aren't able to tell when things are starting to go downhill and know exactly what to do to correct the situation before things turn from bad to worse.   

I didn't perceive it. You quoted my post, which means you were directing your comment to me.

[j.falk]

22 hours ago, Clown79 said:

I didn't perceive it. You quoted my post, which means you were directing your comment to me.

I did not quote your post.  I quoted and replied to ReeferND's post.

 

[ReeferND]

@j.falk @Clown79 Easy fellas! The great thing about this hobby are these kinds of debates as long as they remain debates and dont fumble into insults because we disagree with each other. @blastermanI am directing that one mostly at you. You have your opinions but saying people are dumb for suggesting things like shrimp cycling isn't going to work has no place here. Your only contribution was "use live rock" since that hadn't been mentioned yet. However, it has no place in this post. The OP is having troubles now, not looking to tear down and buy hugely expensive live rock....that would be my guess anyway. Using a raw shrimp to cycle a tank is a proven method of success. @blastermanyou say all these things about it happening naturally in all sorts of ecosystems then state use live rock (I will ask you how you think that rock got alive in the first place) or using ammonia (not very natural and time consuming). All ecosystems start with some sort of prey source, detritus of some sort in many (thermal vents are for another debate). Guess what a rotting shrimp is to bacteria.....

 

I will also say that 99.9% of reefers will fail if they add corals before fish. Fish provide nutrients in a, fairly, balanced way for the tank. If you put corals in with no fish, you have removed a fundamental, elemental step in the establishment of an ecosystem. Fish poop may be one of the most important food items for corals. I'd they just start using reefroids they are in for a world of hurt.

 

To the OP, take everything with a grain of salt and look at many posts. Watch BRS videos. Then make a decision. You will be fine with any of these suggestions, some will just provide an easier path.

[blasterman]

Quote

ou have your opinions but saying people are dumb for suggesting things like shrimp cycling 

It is dumb, and it's not an opinion but common science. Ammonia is the precursor to the nitrogen cycle. If you want to start the nitrogen cycle you start with ammonia. A dead shrimp first decomposes to it's basic proteins which then, quite inefficiently decompose into ammonia. Just because you're stubborn and don't want to do something different doesn't change organic chemistry that was covered in 7th grade. I spent good money on a BA. Obviously you didn't. I Cycled my first tank when I was 18. I'm now 51 and haven't owned a stupid ammonia test kit in decades and have set up dozens of tanks since then.

 

I also never said using a dead shrimp wouldn't work...just that it's dumb and inefficient. Please don't ever change my words again.  Shrimp decays into proteins which then decomposes into ammonia. Why do you want those extra time consuming steps that also contribute contaminants like phosphate into your tank?  It's dumb.

 

From a beginners perspective a tank is either in a state of needing to have the nitrogen cycle initialized, which using ammonia is the most efficient way to accomplish it, or start with healthy live rock from bio loaded tanks. Most live rock sold at reef stores is unfortunately in bulk tanks that don't have fish, therefore no nitrogen cycle, and little beneficial bacteria. I've also covered this hundreds of times here. If that's not common sense enough for you I don't know what is.

 

As I stated many times threads on cycling need to be deleted and just delegated to a sticky. The ammonia cycle is about as complicated as dropping a heavy object and worrying about if it hits the floor. It's a process that occurs on a dirt floor, under your finger nail, in the ocean, lakes, etc. The biological processes that occur after the initial cycle are 1000000000000000x more critical for your tank health than discussing the ammonia cycle. Seriously...if you can't cycle a tank in 6 weeks you are doing something wrong (like using dead shrimp and waiting for it to rot) or have a bad test kit.

 

BRS videos are a marketing hack. They sell reputable bulk reef consumables but they offer no real value to smaller tanks or beginners. I'm still on the box of baking soda I bought from the grocery store for 99 cents for alk. 

 

Quote

I will also say that 99.9% of reefers will fail if they add corals before fish.

I do it all the time. Corals don't care about ammonia because they don't breath O2 but export it. What does screw up corals is the post cycle meta bacterial composition of your tank which can lead to competing organisms (dinos, HA, etc) that can be extremely difficult to eradicate. That's what should be discussing - not dead shrimp.

 

As for the rest of your comments, you're not a moderator and frankly irrelevant.  'Grain of salt" does no apply to organic chemistry processes that have existed for a billion years.

[ReeferND]

@blastermanhey, congrats you have you have BA!!! Good boy. I have a PhD...look me up. You are talking gibberish and not helping this person. ####ing troll!! "I am 51" well that must make you smart. You know nothing of ecology and didn't even try to refute the ecological claims I made....good science. The " I have done it" is just crazy for a first time reefer. You are a troll. 

 

I like trolls, sneaking under a bridge, so let me ask you.... what is a nucleic acid? And I dont want want a wiki definition. Really what is it? You ####ing troll

[Christopher Marks]

@ReeferND @blasterman this isn't the time or place to argue in someone else's topic, in the beginners forum. Take a breather.

[ReeferND]

@Christopher 

2 minutes ago, Christopher Marks said:

@ReeferND @blasterman this isn't the time or place to argue in someone else's topic, in the beginners forum. Take a breather.

I agree. Please look the thread and see my responses. I am trying to help this person. Then @blastermancame in and called us stupid. I am done, I just hope the OP gained some knowledge to help him/her. I am not here to cause a problem. Kick people like @blastermanout or NanoReef is gonna go the way of ReefCentral.

[xM3THODx]

oh geez, not the B.A. card, lol. 

[Clown79]

On 7/31/2019 at 11:39 PM, ReeferND said:

@j.falk @Clown79 Easy fellas! The great thing about this hobby are these kinds of debates as long as they remain debates and dont fumble into insults because we disagree with each other. @blastermanI am directing that one mostly at you. You have your opinions but saying people are dumb for suggesting things like shrimp cycling isn't going to work has no place here. Your only contribution was "use live rock" since that hadn't been mentioned yet. However, it has no place in this post. The OP is having troubles now, not looking to tear down and buy hugely expensive live rock....that would be my guess anyway. Using a raw shrimp to cycle a tank is a proven method of success. @blastermanyou say all these things about it happening naturally in all sorts of ecosystems then state use live rock (I will ask you how you think that rock got alive in the first place) or using ammonia (not very natural and time consuming). All ecosystems start with some sort of prey source, detritus of some sort in many (thermal vents are for another debate). Guess what a rotting shrimp is to bacteria.....

 

I will also say that 99.9% of reefers will fail if they add corals before fish. Fish provide nutrients in a, fairly, balanced way for the tank. If you put corals in with no fish, you have removed a fundamental, elemental step in the establishment of an ecosystem. Fish poop may be one of the most important food items for corals. I'd they just start using reefroids they are in for a world of hurt.

 

To the OP, take everything with a grain of salt and look at many posts. Watch BRS videos. Then make a decision. You will be fine with any of these suggestions, some will just provide an easier path.

I didn't insult or argue with anyone, if anything I think certain comments made in reference to the members on here that post regularly were insulting and I pointed it out.

 

The very purpose of Nano is to provide opinions, experiences, and knowledge. 

 

 

[Ratvan]

@justinkdenny how is your cycle coming along?

[justinkdenny]

7 hours ago, Ratvan said:

@justinkdenny how is your cycle coming along?

It finished a long time ago.  I'm a little embarrassed to even look at this thread after all the fighting.  

[Ratvan]

6 minutes ago, justinkdenny said:

It finished a long time ago.  I'm a little embarrassed to even look at this thread after all the fighting.  

Good news. Dont be embarrassed nothing at all to do with you.

[mcarroll]

Lots of good points being made… (including the point about chilling out) 

 

I think I do agree that some of the advice being given here is pretty much the same advice been given to all levels of reefers and might be a little better-oriented toward the newb since this is the newb forum.

 

For example, I have always thought cycling with a dead shrimp was a horrible idea.  

 

I especially think this for a beginner since they may have no concept of anything that's happening.

 

Putting a piece of meat in a tank so that it can putrefy definitely has ways it can go wrong – it seems naïve to think otherwise. 

 

There are far easier and far safer methods of starting a nitrogen cycle that involve nothing other than what you would be putting into the tank anyway under normal circumstances.  Starting with pure ammonia seems better, but only slightly better, to me in this context than the rotten meat method.

 

I think there must be a natural tendency for folks to want to think that newer ways are better than older ways, but newer does not mean better.

 

Both ammonia and dead shrimp seem to me like hacks that are used to rush the cycling process when it doesn't need rushing (rushing the cycle so that live stocking can also be rushed)...whereas newbs need to learn as soon as possible that nothing good happens fast is a reef.  Both of these start up methods (rotten meat; ammonia) IMO seem contrary to this maxim. 

 

So whether those methods work or not (they do) is almost beside the point.  

 

I admit I also wonder why there is not a sticky on this topic.  It seems like having the various methods laid out clearly, each with its pros and cons, would be very helpful to the newb.   I'd like to see a sticky for each method in fact so there's plenty of room for debate without making the subjects hard to follow.

 

These days it seems like newbs think that ammonia dosing and dead shrimp are the only ways to start a tank which is tragically incorrect.  @blasterman was not incorrect when he said the nitrogen cycle is pretty much unavoidable...so if you have to put much "try" into starting it, maybe reconsider your chosen method and go for something simpler.

 

Check out the first post on this sticky for good ideas:

...remember that "near zero nitrates" on a test kit is prolly 5-10 ppm.  There is no suggestion for zero nutrient levels.