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MrObscura

Mystery of the rising alkalinity...?

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MrObscura

I've been having a weird issue in my nuvo 10. Alk has been rising by about 0.2dkh a day despite the fact that I'm not dosing or adding anything to the tank that would result in an alkalinity increase. And waterchanges are 10% once a week with the same 0tds rodi water I make myself and using the same 8.4dkh batch of salt I've been using.

 

For months my tank consistently used

0.2dkh a day and I dosed accordingly. Then within the past month or so it has occasionally decided to suddenly stop consuming Alk resulting in an increase from dosing, so I'd stop dosing and let it fall and then dose, and stop dosing, as necessary to keep near my 8.4dkh target. Only now my tank has climbed from 8.6 dkg to 9.4 over the past four days despite not dosing at all. And I've confirmed this with both a hanna checker and red sea test. 

 

The only things I can think of is I started feeding benereef again which has pre and probiotics that can increase denitrification. And denitrification can increase Alk by 2.4dkh per 50ppm of no3 converted, but my no3 is still the same 24ppm or so it's been for months, as I tested that to see if it could be the cause. It's not. 

 

The other thing is my Ph did drop to about 7.4 which I'm not sure is low enough to start dissolving rock anyway, but that would increase Alk. But that was only for a day and was like two weeks ago with Ph being above 7.7 since. 

 

I'm at a complete loss since Alk can't just increase on its own, yet it's increasing, so something is adding it, but I have no idea as to what. Any ideas? Thanks. 

 

 

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Garf

Benereef converting NO3 before you can measure it perhaps? Which would mean nitrates increasing about 5ppm a day somehow, to keep you at the same 24ppm. 

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MrObscura

The only new thing I added was benereef (and 1ml acropower 2x a week) so no3 should show a decrease if it is fact denitrification causeing the Alk increase.  Otherwise something would have to be adding 5ppm of no3 a day thats then instantly denitrified. That's the only way I'd see an increase in Alk but no change in no3. 

 

But even then since the nutrient import/export doesn't change the bacteria would continue to denitrify until the tank found a balance, So no3 would need to continue dropping while Alk rose.

 

This is the weirdest hurdle I've encountered yet. At least everything else had something that could  explain it. 

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Clown79

Have you tested ca or mag?

 

If corals are consuming more ca, then alk will rise. 

 

Also consumption rates can change at various times. I've had it happen and if I didn't test alk 2 times a week, I would have over dosed with my 2 part.

 

I have personally never seen my alk change in regards to nitrate levels increasing/decreasing.

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MrObscura

Yea, I figured when I saw the alk not dropping it was just a change in consumption, so I'd just stop dosing until it was necessary. But this last time I Alk has continued to raise dispite having stopped dosing. 

 

As for no3s relationship to Alk, it's when denitrifying bacteria converts no3 to nitrogen gas that Alk is created as a result. Other ways of decreasing no3 such as waterchanges, absorbtion media, macros, etc. won't effect Alk. 

 

Oh, and Yea mag and cal haven't budged. But I'll test everything again tomorrow before my waterchange. 

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MrObscura

Well, it's gone up another 0.2dkh to 9.6. Idk wtf is going on. I tested every parameter before my waterchange and everything was in line except for po4 which has suddenly bottomed out after a stable 0.06 week after week. 

Alk 9.6 somehow

Cal 460

Mag 1600(red sea testing high as it often does.)

No3 24ppm

Po4 0 somehow(did multiple test to confirm) 

Ph 8.06

 

Between the major Ph drop a couple weeks ago and this Alk issue I'm losing sps, again. But I won't give up, I'm going to get this thing stable and grow acros. At least I'm approaching the one year mark where things start to click. Hopefully I can work out the kinks and get this thing chugging along. 

 

And on top of the tank issues I just had to rush my dog to emergency where he was put to sleep. I'll miss you little buddy. 

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Tamberav

Really sorry about your dog 😞

 

I had this same issue may 2018. I even went to Randy as I could not figure it out. He said decreasing nitrate or vitamin C could effect alk. Also talked about man-made rock...not sure if you are using liferock?

 

I was also using a bit of acropower and reef roids I think?

 

It fixed itself one day and now my tank is steady. I mostly just stopped acro power and reef roids and fed mysis instead of LRS for awhile but no idea if that was the fix as I went back to both of those later on and no issues but my consumption is higher anyways. I just basically pulled all additives I though could have an effect.

 

Here is my post:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/alk-rising-without-dosing.395967/#post-4773977

 

 

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ReefCap

What salt are you using? Do you test the salt each time you make a fresh batch? Are you mixing up the bag of salt before scooping it out? If you let some salts sit around for a while and don’t mix it up a lot of additives settle to the bottom and can cause the new salt water to be way off from where it should be. 

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MrObscura

I'm using red sea blue bucket which mixes to 8.6 and only do a 10% WC a week. Yet Alk is rising 0.02dkh a day. 

 

No artificial rock, it's reef cleaners. And the only things I've done different is add benereef and acropower to my reef roids/rods food mixture that I feed 2x a week. Since Tam had the same issue and acropower is the common(I've been feeding roids since the beginning without issue) I'm thinking it might have something to do with it. Possibly another example of it ain't broke don't fix it. When will I learn? 

 

And thanks for posting the thread, I'll read through it. Id post over there as well, but I've been banned. Seemingly because the mods have a stick up their ass with no sense of humor. 

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Tamberav
18 minutes ago, MrObscura said:

I'm using red sea blue bucket which mixes to 8.6 and only do a 10% WC a week. Yet Alk is rising 0.02dkh a day. 

 

No artificial rock, it's reef cleaners. And the only things I've done different is add benereef and acropower to my reef roids/rods food mixture that I feed 2x a week. Since Tam had the same issue and acropower is the common(I've been feeding roids since the beginning without issue) I'm thinking it might have something to do with it. Possibly another example of it ain't broke don't fix it. When will I learn? 

 

And thanks for posting the thread, I'll read through it. Id post over there as well, but I've been banned. Seemingly because the mods have a stick up their ass with no sense of humor. 

 

Ya reef2reef is ehh... some of the older active members are straight up passive aggressive while newer members will get reprimanded or banned for less. 

 

I pretty much bite my tongue and even just close/stop reading a thread because I know I would get in trouble if I posted on it. They do have some good reads though and some helpful people like randy so I browse it when I run out of nano-reef threads.

 

The one downside to such a big community there is there is a lot of stupid advise, not just a few posts but pages of it when people are asking for help. IDK how a beginner would be able to know what to believe. 

 

 

Anyways, maybe try stopping the acro power and if that doesn't do it, try to stop the benereef on top of it. I stopped a bunch at once figuring it could be multiple things. I started it up later but the tank was more stable in general so maybe it didn't have the same effect. I figured... can't hurt to go back to the basics for awhile. 

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MrObscura

They altered one of my posts for language, an already censored post mind you, when I called the pods that ate by white zombies bastards, a word which was censored automatically. Then deleted my post questioning their action of altering posts willy nilly without informing posters. Of course I didn't appreciate posts being erased simply because it questioned their "draconian rule"  a comment I even followed by saying "just kidding. Don't bann me." So, long story short... after a perfectly friendly exchange through private message a number of days went by with me making multiple posts without issue, then suddenly I found myself banned. And they've ignored my numerous attempts to contact them.  Dicks. 

 

Anyway, I'm cutting out the benereef and acropower and going to stick with what was working. Which I should have done from the start. 

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Clown79
21 hours ago, MrObscura said:

Well, it's gone up another 0.2dkh to 9.6. Idk wtf is going on. I tested every parameter before my waterchange and everything was in line except for po4 which has suddenly bottomed out after a stable 0.06 week after week. 

Alk 9.6 somehow

Cal 460

Mag 1600(red sea testing high as it often does.)

No3 24ppm

Po4 0 somehow(did multiple test to confirm) 

Ph 8.06

 

Between the major Ph drop a couple weeks ago and this Alk issue I'm losing sps, again. But I won't give up, I'm going to get this thing stable and grow acros. At least I'm approaching the one year mark where things start to click. Hopefully I can work out the kinks and get this thing chugging along. 

 

And on top of the tank issues I just had to rush my dog to emergency where he was put to sleep. I'll miss you little buddy. 

I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your dog. 

 

 

I once had my alk do something similar in my 10g but it stopped randomly.

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MrObscura

Thanks. The house just didn't feel right without a dog, even for as night. I haven't been without one for decades. And while no dog replaces the ones you've lost the joy  dogs add to your life trumps the pain of losing them. So you do it all again. 

 

In other words... while just visiting some shelters without any intention of absolutely leaving with another dog, the dog needs to chose you(otherwise I'd have 50), this guy had other plans.

20190615_160657.jpg

Here's hoping for many years of happy memories to go along with the ones my other dogs were kind enough to give me. 

 

Anyway, reef tanks... Lol Yea, Alk climbed 0.1dkh today so that could mean it's actually stopped. I'm just going to stick to my routine. There's no swaps until aquashella and rap in the fall so I'm just going to let the tank mature for a few months and hopefully it'll be ready for a ton of nice acros come that time. 

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Clown79
4 hours ago, MrObscura said:

Thanks. The house just didn't feel right without a dog, even for as night. I haven't been without one for decades. And while no dog replaces the ones you've lost the joy  dogs add to your life trumps the pain of losing them. So you do it all again. 

 

In other words... while just visiting some shelters without any intention of absolutely leaving with another dog, the dog needs to chose you(otherwise I'd have 50), this guy had other plans.

20190615_160657.jpg

Here's hoping for many years of happy memories to go along with the ones my other dogs were kind enough to give me. 

 

Anyway, reef tanks... Lol Yea, Alk climbed 0.1dkh today so that could mean it's actually stopped. I'm just going to stick to my routine. There's no swaps until aquashella and rap in the fall so I'm just going to let the tank mature for a few months and hopefully it'll be ready for a ton of nice acros come that time. 

Ya, it's a horrible feeling losing a pet, they become family.

 

You can never replace them and getting a new one is not replacing them. You helped a needy dog who will help you too.

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mcarroll
On 6/15/2019 at 2:58 AM, MrObscura said:

I tested every parameter before my waterchange and everything was in line except for po4 which has suddenly bottomed out after a stable 0.06 week after week.

On 6/15/2019 at 2:58 AM, MrObscura said:

I'm losing sps, again

 

Your nitrate levels being so high in the presence of basically zero phosphates is a risk to your corals.  That's a bad combo.

 

Carbon dosing (with the amino acids, which are carbon + nitrogen) into that scenario is like throwing matches into a gas tank.  Good that you have stopped.

 

I'm not sure I'd worry too much about the alk since those levels you tested are all totally acceptable (and water changes can always be engaged to lower it if needed).  Even up to 11-12 dKH used to be pretty normal parameters for SPS tanks, so no worries.

 

But if you don't address the lack of phosphates, you may continue to lose corals.

 

Personally I'd at least consider adding some phosphates (eg. Seachem Flourish Phosphorous) to keep levels closer to 0.10 ppm until the nitrate levels get to 5-10 ppm or so.

 

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MrObscura

I didn't realize aminos is a form of carbon dosing. Anyway, I went back to just feeding what I was before(nls pellets, reef roids, and rods food). 

 

Alk is still higher than I want at 10 but it seems to have stopped climbing daily at least. 

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mcarroll

Check this out:

image.png.006cca5207b15c419541f41290724442.png

The basic structure of an amino...one "N" two "C"'s and some water.

 

"R" is where the useful non-generic bits (or "tails") will connect to make a full amino that will perfom a function.

 

Here are some common "tails":

image.thumb.png.fce93f547bb8b9b175ca9baa509efe11.png

 

This is the formula for Lysine...Carbon, Nitrogen, Water and some extra Hydrogen:

 
C6H14N2O2

 

 

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