pH issues suddenly

[MInanoTank]

Just completed 5 gallon water change.   4th (2ml low rez) test = 16.6 dKH   pH has moved up to 7.93 throughout the day.

[hotdrop]

You must have goofed the dosing idk how else you go that high. If you are out of range you can dilute in half with DI water btw

 

[ConnorD42]

1 hour ago, MInanoTank said:

3rd test = 21.6 dKH

Yeah like Mark did, I and a lot of others do is point a powerhead up for sure if you haven't already to promote surface agitation, agitation = gas exchange CO2 for O2 because CO2 combined with H2O yields carbonic acid, that being said, even opening a window didn't bring mine up much, but surface agitation should help out generally speaking. And like Clown79 mentioned, I personally don't even bother with pH unless i'm bored and curious (or if for whatever reason everything were to close and look ill) Judge me all you guys want, but everything in my tank is growing and looking super happy using api kits (minus salifert Mg kit) guess it's time to switch over though! hah!

 

But 21.6dKH sounds like a mega-overdose quite simply. again like mark; change at least 50% of the water, should knock the alkalinity concentration down to within range if gen chem taught me anything.

 

[blasterman]

Fresh salt mixes can run as high as 11-12 dKH, but should not run higher. It's nothing but baking soda in the mix. So, I don't think you're reading the test kit right.

 

Low dKH doesn't start screwing with pH until it drops to well below 7. 

 

Corals that are suddenly ticked off when no other external factors have changed is 99% of the time something biologic in the tank. Dead snail, ticked off palys going into warfare mode, etc. Water params like dKH, calcium, etc just don't magically drop below a threshold and suddenly make corals angry. You're either dosing something totally out of whack, or it's a biological issue.

 

 

[MInanoTank]

1 hour ago, hotdrop said:

You must have goofed the dosing idk how else you go that high. If you are out of range you can dilute in half with DI water btw

 

The only thing I can think of - LFS told me when I started putting corals in my tank, to dose weak kalkwasser through my ATO to keep pH up.   I did, without measuring for alkalinity while doing it.   So over the last 2 months, every time the ATO topped the tank off, it was putting some alkalinity in the tank as well.   The small corals I've been putting in the tank, probably aren't processing the alkalinity as fast as it's been being added - so the level kept going up.

 

The kalk is out of the ATO reservoir now, and I have a kH/Alk test kit now.

 

The pH probe is showing a steady 7.95 since the water change.   All corals are looking better - except for the monti.   It looks miserable.

 

I know it's not a calibrated test method - but the water definitely smells better than it did yesterday.

[Tamberav]

3 hours ago, Mark L. said:

Water change immediately.  I'll be interested to see from others why they think it could possibly get that high.  Like was stated above, being that high could cause all kinds of other issues. 

 Kalk in his ATO. It was a small amount but I doubt the tank was consuming much at this point....so depending on evaporation rates and time...

 

I feel like some LFS just make crap up as they go.

[hotdrop]

I do wonder how fast he should go down in all now that it’s so high. Maybe 1g water change a day for a couple weeks? My understanding is that rapid changes can also be bad or even worse.

[MInanoTank]

38 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

 Kalk in his ATO. It was a small amount but I doubt the tank was consuming much at this point....so depending on evaporation rates and time...

 

I feel like some LFS just make crap up as they go.

I've never felt like that about this particular LFS ... until now.   In hindsight, I should have thought about it far more before acting.

[FlytheWMark]

12 hours ago, MInanoTank said:

I've never felt like that about this particular LFS ... until now.   In hindsight, I should have thought about it far more before acting.

I have a great LFS, but even they have given me some poor advice in the past.  I don't think they were being malicious and the advice they gave me didn't really help their sales.  I've been in the hobby about a year and a half now and I consistently read these boards to learn.  So when they do give me some advice that just doesn't "feel" right I come on here to double check it.  No one is perfect, live and learn. Your issue is fixable.  I agree with @hotdrop do some smaller water changes every day to get it down now.

[MInanoTank]

Had to travel for work Wednesday and Thursday -just got home.   Did an alk test first thing this morning = 12.2 dKH, pH has been as high as 8.0 over the past 2 days, currently at 7.86, lights are ramping up for the day.

 

Fish, acan, GSP, zoas, sun, meteor shower all look fine.   The torch and hammer still look POed, and the monti is turning a sickly white color - still pink in the center, but all around the edges it's gone pale white.

 

[ConnorD42]

some of the other members like clown, mark, or tamberav may be able to confirm this (especially since I've only JUST stepped into LPS corals the last couple months) but stability should make them happy again, so even if your pH isn't up 'where it should be' as long as you keep dKH and other parameters constant now then your torch and hammer should calm down- I would assume over the next few days, time will tell though. From what I've read at least it seems like LPS corals and softies should be able to rebound, but SPS has a more difficult time. No clue about the monti though 😨 Our tanks don't like fluctuation, this I definitely know haha.  

 

I tested my pH the other day just to see where it lay at the end of the day after reading this right before the lights shut off and I measured 8.09 when alk was tested at 8 or 9 dKH i don't remember exactly. 

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, ConnorD42 said:

some of the other members like clown, mark, or tamberav may be able to confirm this (especially since I've only JUST stepped into LPS corals the last couple months) but stability should make them happy again, so even if your pH isn't up 'where it should be' as long as you keep dKH and other parameters constant now then your torch and hammer should calm down- I would assume over the next few days, time will tell though. From what I've read at least it seems like LPS corals and softies should be able to rebound, but SPS has a more difficult time. No clue about the monti though 😨 Our tanks don't like fluctuation, this I definitely know haha.  

 

I tested my pH the other day just to see where it lay at the end of the day after reading this right before the lights shut off and I measured 8.09 when alk was tested at 8 or 9 dKH i don't remember exactly. 

100% stability is the key. 

 

I found when using high alk salt, my corals were not pleased, I lost some sps too so I switched back to one that fell in between 8-9.

I test alk 2 times a week just to ensure it's in check. 

[FlytheWMark]

2 hours ago, ConnorD42 said:

some of the other members like clown, mark, or tamberav may be able to confirm this (especially since I've only JUST stepped into LPS corals the last couple months) but stability should make them happy again, so even if your pH isn't up 'where it should be' as long as you keep dKH and other parameters constant now then your torch and hammer should calm down- I would assume over the next few days, time will tell though. From what I've read at least it seems like LPS corals and softies should be able to rebound, but SPS has a more difficult time. No clue about the monti though 😨 Our tanks don't like fluctuation, this I definitely know haha.  

 

I tested my pH the other day just to see where it lay at the end of the day after reading this right before the lights shut off and I measured 8.09 when alk was tested at 8 or 9 dKH i don't remember exactly. 

With Alk I know you can have some fluctuation within ranges and everything be ok.  I'm having an issue in my 20 gallon with where I can't keep Alk up  (dosing more now to get it stable) and everything in the tank is fine.  But at the levels he had I'm a bit surprised he hasn't had more issues.  As for Monti's I don't have much experience but I'm betting that high of Alk bleached it out unfortunately.

[MInanoTank]

I'm not fully convince the problems are all alkalinity related ... the tank started to bottom out after I changed water and replaced a bag of Purigen with a "regened" bag.   Even though I did 3 different Prime soaks to rinse the "regened" bag - I'm thinking there was still a lot of bleach in there.   From now on, old bags go in the garbage, only new bags go in the filtration.   I've also gone back to just carbon, Purigen and floss in the filtration.

 

I feel like the high alk levels are from overdosing with kalk in my ATO.

 

Is there any chance bleach would have caused the pH to bottom out? 

 

I know I shouldn't chase pH numbers - but the pH is still hovering below 8 today.   Both returns and powerhead are pointing up to help with gas exchange.   House CO2 levels are under 500PPM right now, as reported by my Netatmo Indoor base station.  

 

I'm working on water for a water change now.

[hotdrop]

If you are going to chase ph and have a skimmer just add a carbon scrubber in line. I suppose bleach could have killed stuff off and caused a bloom from excess nutrients but shouldn’t cause ph swings directly 

[FlytheWMark]

8 minutes ago, MInanoTank said:

I'm not fully convince the problems are all alkalinity related ... the tank started to bottom out after I changed water and replaced a bag of Purigen with a "regened" bag.   Even though I did 3 different Prime soaks to rinse the "regened" bag - I'm thinking there was still a lot of bleach in there.   From now on, old bags go in the garbage, only new bags go in the filtration.   I've also gone back to just carbon, Purigen and floss in the filtration.

 

I feel like the high alk levels are from overdosing with kalk in my ATO.

 

Is there any chance bleach would have caused the pH to bottom out? 

 

I know I shouldn't chase pH numbers - but the pH is still hovering below 8 today.   Both returns and powerhead are pointing up to help with gas exchange.   House CO2 levels are under 500PPM right now, as reported by my Netatmo Indoor base station.  

 

I'm working on water for a water change now.

Do what you just advised yourself above... Don't chase PH.  🙂 Get your Alk in line and PH will be fine.

[Asureef]

You’ve received some great advice.  

 

IMO, for a tank barely 2 months old, you’re doing too much.   Get your big 3 in line and everything will balance itself out including your pH.  Btw, temp can have some affect on pH as well.  But from your description, it seems to me your main issue is alk.  related.  Your calcium and magnesium is likely out of wack as well.  

[Tamberav]

I bought a can of purigen and just put 1 spoonful in with the carbon so the whole thing gets tossed when I change the carbon. I used to recharge, and I would have multiple bags so I wasn't using the same recharged bag that day, instead the recharge bag would sit out to dry.... by the time I used it, it was bone dry and bleach evaporates... soo this way no issues. I don't do that anymore because I am lazy and rather just add a scoop and toss.

 

My pH goes from 7.8 at night to 8.2 during the day in winter... summer it is 8.0 to 8.3 because I have the windows open now. Actually on my graph you can see where the windows were closed and now open for a few days 😛

 

 

 

 

7.8 isn't a problem, actually your pH probably isn't the direct problem, but it may be indicating a problem with something else biologically.

[ConnorD42]

6 hours ago, MInanoTank said:

I'm not fully convince the problems are all alkalinity related ... the tank started to bottom out after I changed water and replaced a bag of Purigen with a "regened" bag.   Even though I did 3 different Prime soaks to rinse the "regened" bag - I'm thinking there was still a lot of bleach in there.   From now on, old bags go in the garbage, only new bags go in the filtration.   I've also gone back to just carbon, Purigen and floss in the filtration.

 

I feel like the high alk levels are from overdosing with kalk in my ATO.

 

Is there any chance bleach would have caused the pH to bottom out? 

 

I know I shouldn't chase pH numbers - but the pH is still hovering below 8 today.   Both returns and powerhead are pointing up to help with gas exchange.   House CO2 levels are under 500PPM right now, as reported by my Netatmo Indoor base station.  

 

I'm working on water for a water change now.

Unlikely, because bleach is ridiculously basic, so if anything you would've seen a huge rise in pH I would guess depending on concentration and volume that found it's way into the tank.

 

7 hours ago, Mark L. said:

With Alk I know you can have some fluctuation within ranges and everything be ok.  I'm having an issue in my 20 gallon with where I can't keep Alk up  (dosing more now to get it stable) and everything in the tank is fine.  But at the levels he had I'm a bit surprised he hasn't had more issues.  As for Monti's I don't have much experience but I'm betting that high of Alk bleached it out unfortunately.

And right that's what I was trying to say haha. I just watched a tidal gardens video on SPS corals (completely unrelated to this discussion) and yeah I'd have to probably side with you Mark, I think it's probably toast. I know I had a few small alk swings and spikes, but it was always like +/-2dKH so nothing too horrendous to correct in small increments. Nonetheless the fact that only the monti is bleached by the alk swing op had is very impressive in a good way haha!

[MInanoTank]

On 4/26/2019 at 6:38 PM, Tamberav said:

I bought a can of purigen and just put 1 spoonful in with the carbon so the whole thing gets tossed when I change the carbon. I used to recharge, and I would have multiple bags so I wasn't using the same recharged bag that day, instead the recharge bag would sit out to dry.... by the time I used it, it was bone dry and bleach evaporates... soo this way no issues. I don't do that anymore because I am lazy and rather just add a scoop and toss.

I had 2 bags of Purigen - took the first one out, bleached it for 24 hours, then rinsed in a 2 gallon container with Prime and a small pump moving the water for 24 hours.   Dumped the Prime water, and repeated that twice.   Then rinsed in RODI for 24 hours with the pump.   Then let sit for about 2 weeks to completely dry out.   It just seems odd that while I was having downward trending pH values for about a week, it suddenly bombed out the night I put the regened Prigen bag back i the filtration.

 

I won't regen the Purigen again - I will toss the bags and put in new every month.

On 4/26/2019 at 6:38 PM, Tamberav said:

 

 

7.8 isn't a problem, actually your pH probably isn't the direct problem, but it may be indicating a problem with something else biologically.

 

That's my thought - that the pH number is showing something else is going on - but what?  There's nothing missing biologically - all inhabitants are present and accounted for.    Shouldn't the high alk numbers have been buffering the pH - causing it to go higher, not lower?   And as pH is logarithmic, it should have been something severely acidic to to have caused the pH number to drop around 0.8 in a few hours, especially with all the extra carbonate in the water.   Could there be an issue with my RODI system?

 

 

The monti definitely looks dead this morning - what was white now is turning brown.   And my meteor shower isn't the right color - more dark grey than light blue.   Pretty sure those are both losses.   The hammer is looking about normal now, the torch is POed, tentacles look like pork sausages - all bloated and pudgy.

 

 

 

 

Did a 2 gallon water change yesterday morning - Alk tested at 11.5 dKH this morning using the Salifert high rez (4ml) test.   Calcium and Magnesium tests are inbound from Amazon, scheduled to arrive tomorrow.

[Tamberav]

Corals tend to take weeks to recover from swings and problems. Sounds to me like you had a multitude of things going on. It may be they were already putting up with a high alk and then replacing the purigen tossed something else out of wack and that was the last straw. 

 

A water change would cause a swing downward since the alk was so much higher than your freshly mixed water. 

[MInanoTank]

Ca & Mg test kits got delivered from Amazon.   Just did tests -

 

Ca = 400PPM

Mg = 1100PPM (a little low)

Alk = 10.5dKH

pH = 8.06

 

I pulled the monti this morning - it was completely brown, slimey and stinky.   2 of the 3 heads on the torch look back to normal, the third is halfway back.   The meteor shower still looks dark grey - it too might be a loss, but I'm giving it some more time.

 

Did another 2 gallon water change this morning.

[MInanoTank]

Things are normalizing again ...

 

I've been checking Alk, calcium and Mg every 3 days.   Current levels are -

 

Alk = 10.5dKH

Calcium = 400PPM

Mg = 1280PPM

 

pH is starting to look more normal as well, this weeks graph is showing a slow increase daily.   Tuesday was cold and rainy, so windows were shut all day, and the main lights are off most of the day Tuesday as well.  (In an attempt to vary daily cycles, I have the mains programmed to go off from 9:30am - 3:30pm on Tues & Sat, then turn off for an hour, on for an hour from 8:30am - 4:30pm on Thurs & Sun.   There are additional Actinic & Mixed TruLumens lights in the hood that provide light while the mains are off on those days - trying to create different lighting cycles to avoid overpowering with the mains 7 days per week.)

 

 

The meteor shower still looks miserable - but the polyps show signs of color under the actnics.   I'm hopeful it might come back.

 

The Torch and Hammer are back to looking normal again.

 

Coraline algae is also starting to grow - I've got lots of the deep red, and light purple on the front of the powerhead.   Starting to see spots of the deep red on LR rubble I used to mount corals.   And lots of small spots of the light purple showing up on the back wall.