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[mcarroll]

The rest of the test is to let that sample sit under a light for a while and see if any of the bits that did get blasted apart re-coagulate into any kind of mass.  

 

However...

 

Just by the variety of crud that you named I can pretty much guarantee that that is not a dino problem even if there are some dinos in it.  

 

If you remove/disable the refugium (at least while the tank recovers, matures, stabilizes) I believe that would remove the problem you're trying to solve for with the filter floss and the eliminate the extra competition for nutrients — double win. 👍

 

 

[ECLS Reefer]

3 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

The rest of the test is to let that sample sit under a light for a while and see if any of the bits that did get blasted apart re-coagulate into any kind of mass.  

 

However...

 

Just by the variety of crud that you named I can pretty much guarantee that that is not a dino problem even if there are some dinos in it.  

 

If you remove/disable the refugium (at least while the tank recovers, matures, stabilizes) I believe that would remove the problem you're trying to solve for with the filter floss and the eliminate the extra competition for nutrients — double win. 👍

 

 

So toss the sand, rocks and plant matter? Or clean and save? Set it on fire in a bucket? 🔥🔥 Admit that im no gardener of dry or wet plants? I’m the Constant Failure Gardener 🤦🏽‍♀️. 
 

If, some day long in the future I try to re- attempt a refugium for macros, is there a better way than sand and letting them just float in there? Obviously I didn’t figure out that particular building block skill. 

Oh and back to the question of what’s killing the corals and fish (no one else has died fish-wise). Another torch disintegrated today while I was at work.

[seabass]

1 hour ago, Dirté Sanchez said:

So toss the sand, rocks and plant matter? Or clean and save?

What type of algae is in your fuge?  I assume you are talking more about sand and rocks in your fuge?  Depending on the algae, you might choose to keep some in your display.

 

I know some people like to use decorative macro (usually Caulerpa) in their refugiums.  However, it's often easier to keep a ball of chaeto in a fuge without sand and rocks (it's certainly easier to keep clean).

 

So when you are asking about whether or not to keep stuff, are you asking about the sand and rocks?  If so, I probably would.  I'd probably try to cure them first (as you would if you were cycling them).  After the organic material has broken down, I might let them dry out for long term storage (and use somewhere down the road).

 

It's conceivable that the fuge is the root of some of your problems. 

[mcarroll]

SUMP

The sand and rocks down there probably aren't hurting much, and if there's any kind of microfauna population down there (ditch the scavengers!), then the habitat space might be even pretty helpful in terms of generating zooplankton from things down there like pods and bristleworms. 

 

Personally I like a sump that is as bare as possible, which can help with some things (like getting the detritus THROUGH the sump back to the display for FEEDING), but that's more of a personal choice/style thing I guess.  But I would keep your refugium un-lit if you keep it going without light/plants.   (Minor point: What is your flow rate between sump and display, BTW?   If you haven't measured, then what pump do you have and is the plumbing a pretty simple layou and either 3/4" or 1"?)

 

MACRO ALGAE

If you wanted to keep macros, I'd actually consider setting up a tank just for that where nutrient levels can really be prioritized.   

 

I'm guessing you'll be interested in something other than pest macros like chaeto and caulerpa though.   There are tons of more interesting options.   

 

Point of Interest:  Did you know that in one survey they found that Chaeto hosted more Dinoflagellates than any other macro tested?  (Turf algae was right behind chaeto tho.) 

 

See "Table 1" on the original article: Macroalgal palatability and the flux of ciguatera toxins through marine food webs

 

CORALS

Once you get salinity stabilized and the refugium sorted out, IMO it's time to hit the tank with a large water change.  I'm fine with up to 50% since nutrient levels don't seem very low.....N and P should remain at decent levels after the change.  (This is important, so no 100% water changes unless you can dose up the new water with nitrates and phosphates to existing tank levels before adding it to the tank.)

 

Remember that 1.029 spike and my suggestion to get one or two new corals.  Looking only at your existing corals -- which should all be considered tweaked IMO -- is going to keep giving you negative indicators, maybe for a month or more after things stabilize...maybe months.  I don't think that means anything mysterious is happening.

 

A new coral, added once things are stable will give you another perspective on how the tank is doing now which you can compare with the indications from your older corals.

 

As long as salinity is nailed going forward, IMO a new coral ought to do fine.

 

ACTIVATED CARBON

I think even running activated carbon may be too much (or at least unneeded) at this point, although out of curiosity I'd be tempted to run a small Poly-Filter to see if anything is indicated.

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

SKIMMER

How's your skimmer running now? 

 

I'm guessing it's problems were/are related to the sponge/water level/salinity issues?

[Tamberav]

You need to shake it up and strain it through a paper towel and the wait to see if it reforms. 

 

Again it looks and behaves like cyano to me. 

[ECLS Reefer]

8 hours ago, mcarroll said:

The rest of the test is to let that sample sit under a light for a while and see if any of the bits that did get blasted apart re-coagulate into any kind of mass.  

 

However...

 

Just by the variety of crud that you named I can pretty much guarantee that that is not a dino problem even if there are some dinos in it.  

 

If you remove/disable the refugium (at least while the tank recovers, matures, stabilizes) I believe that would remove the problem you're trying to solve for with the filter floss and the eliminate the extra competition for nutrients — double win. 👍

 

 

So here is the picture of the gunk this morning after just sitting in fluorescent light

 

6 hours ago, seabass said:

What type of algae is in your fuge?  I assume you are talking more about sand and rocks in your fuge?  Depending on the algae, you might choose to keep some in your display.

 

I know some people like to use decorative macro (usually Caulerpa) in their refugiums.  However, it's often easier to keep a ball of chaeto in a fuge without sand and rocks (it's certainly easier to keep clean).

 

So when you are asking about whether or not to keep stuff, are you asking about the sand and rocks?  If so, I probably would.  I'd probably try to cure them first (as you would if you were cycling them).  After the organic material has broken down, I might let them dry out for long term storage (and use somewhere down the road).

 

It's conceivable that the fuge is the root of some of your problems. 

I have been trying to grow chaeto under green caulerpa (the bubble kind). It had looked good, expanded enough for one culling, and now it looks awful like everything else. There’s a small layer of sand (black) and rubble. Media blocks in the drain/skimmer chamber of the sump. So if I cleaned it like was suggested, I assumed that meant pull the sand, the rubble and clean out the plant matter and debris, have just bare bottom glass.

 

4 hours ago, mcarroll said:

SUMP

The sand and rocks down there probably aren't hurting much, and if there's any kind of microfauna population down there (ditch the scavengers!), then the habitat space might be even pretty helpful in terms of generating zooplankton from things down there like pods and bristleworms. 

 

Personally I like a sump that is as bare as possible, which can help with some things (like getting the detritus THROUGH the sump back to the display for FEEDING), but that's more of a personal choice/style thing I guess.  But I would keep your refugium un-lit if you keep it going without light/plants.   (Minor point: What is your flow rate between sump and display, BTW?   If you haven't measured, then what pump do you have and is the plumbing a pretty simple layou and either 3/4" or 1"?)

 

MACRO ALGAE

If you wanted to keep macros, I'd actually consider setting up a tank just for that where nutrient levels can really be prioritized.   

 

I'm guessing you'll be interested in something other than pest macros like chaeto and caulerpa though.   There are tons of more interesting options.   

 

Point of Interest:  Did you know that in one survey they found that Chaeto hosted more Dinoflagellates than any other macro tested?  (Turf algae was right behind chaeto tho.) 

 

See "Table 1" on the original article: Macroalgal palatability and the flux of ciguatera toxins through marine food webs

 

CORALS

Once you get salinity stabilized and the refugium sorted out, IMO it's time to hit the tank with a large water change.  I'm fine with up to 50% since nutrient levels don't seem very low.....N and P should remain at decent levels after the change.  (This is important, so no 100% water changes unless you can dose up the new water with nitrates and phosphates to existing tank levels before adding it to the tank.)

 

Remember that 1.029 spike and my suggestion to get one or two new corals.  Looking only at your existing corals -- which should all be considered tweaked IMO -- is going to keep giving you negative indicators, maybe for a month or more after things stabilize...maybe months.  I don't think that means anything mysterious is happening.

 

A new coral, added once things are stable will give you another perspective on how the tank is doing now which you can compare with the indications from your older corals.

 

As long as salinity is nailed going forward, IMO a new coral ought to do fine.

 

ACTIVATED CARBON

I think even running activated carbon may be too much (or at least unneeded) at this point, although out of curiosity I'd be tempted to run a small Poly-Filter to see if anything is indicated.

 

 

 

So I run poly filter pads in the one baffle where I put FF. I alternate between the two because of expense. Im not sure why the salinity problem happens other than because of the anatomy of this particular sump and where I have to place the FF, causing it to gunk up BEFORE the ATO return. Like I said I need to get a good shot of the sump layout so you’ll understand, and maybe I set it up wrong. 
 

As for the macro, I wanted colorful stuff to grow in the DT and nutrient export stuff in the sump for natural media. I want to have a simple, media-less system. I’m just having trouble getting there. And no I didn’t know that about chaeto 😟. 

[ECLS Reefer]

4 hours ago, mcarroll said:

SKIMMER

How's your skimmer running now? 

 

I'm guessing it's problems were/are related to the sponge/water level/salinity issues?

The skimmer has been running well the last week, not suddenly overflowing but giving a fairly dry skim. In the past it’s surprised me and kicked into overdrive while I’m done and flooded the sump or even my floor. So at least for now, it’s working well. 

[ECLS Reefer]

So for Saturday, I feel like the consensus for me is to clean out the sump, remove the plant matter and clean the sand and rocks out for now, do a 50% total water volume change on the system. Continue using carbon in bags, lose the FF since the sump will be clean, and monitor the parameters after this? Also clean at least half of the sand bed in the DT in this change. 
 

Does that sound about right for a plan?
 

I can’t really afford the sand swap out just now because it’s Christmas and my children have decided to be expensive this year. 

3 hours ago, Tamberav said:

You need to shake it up and strain it through a paper towel and the wait to see if it reforms. 

 

Again it looks and behaves like cyano to me. 

Oh just saw this. Didn’t get to that step. I can try again tonight if you need me to.

[seabass]

31 minutes ago, Dirté Sanchez said:

I have been trying to grow chaeto under green caulerpa (the bubble kind). It had looked good, expanded enough for one culling, and now it looks awful like everything else.

Grape Caulerpa can be quite invasive.  So much so that there are restrictions where you can ship it.  So it's not ideal in a display.  And like many other macros, it can go "sexual" and suddenly release it's nutrients if its needs are not met.  Chaeto doesn't do this (which is another reason why people use it in refugiums).

 

I'm not sure if your caulerpa has released nutrients, but I suspect that may have happened (at least to some of it).

[mcarroll]

I would remove the plant material and the bio blocks.  (I didn't know they were down there or I would've mentioned them sooner.)

 

If you want to change gears, like I said my preference is for a totally empty sump with just the basic equipment down there – I did not even have baffles in my sump, just a powerhead, skimmer and heater.  For me the goal was to keep any detritus that made it down to the sump moving so it could be delivered back up to the display to be used as food by my corals. This goal may or may not work for you and your tank.

 

If the sand in the sump is not aragonite then I might consider replacing it instead of leaving it. (If the current sand is not in an easy to remove tray or a container of some kind, do that with the sand you replace it with to make it easier to remove down the road.)

 

It does look like something grew overnight in your vial but I'm not sure that it looks like dinoflagellates. Does it look like something grew to you as well? And if so what color does the stuff that grew appear to you?

 

 

[ECLS Reefer]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

I would remove the plant material and the bio blocks.  (I didn't know they were down there or I would've mentioned them sooner.)

 

If you want to change gears, like I said my preference is for a totally empty sump with just the basic equipment down there – I did not even have baffles in my sump, just a powerhead, skimmer and heater.  For me the goal was to keep any detritus that made it down to the sump moving so it could be delivered back up to the display to be used as food by my corals. This goal may or may not work for you and your tank.

 

If the sand in the sump is not aragonite then I might consider replacing it instead of leaving it. (If the current sand is not in an easy to remove tray or a container of some kind, do that with the sand you replace it with to make it easier to remove down the road.)

 

It does look like something grew overnight in your vial but I'm not sure that it looks like dinoflagellates. Does it look like something grew to you as well? And if so what color does the stuff that grew appear to you?

 

 

1. Bio blocks- I’ll try. They’re size and position make them difficult to remove. Would cleaning them well suffice?

 

2. The sand is the same black aragonite stiff as in the DT but maybe 2cm deep. I can get that out pretty easily. That’s a great idea about an easy to remove container, thank you!!!

 

3. The gunk was black with green tinge no bubbles, but stringy. Not what I’d consider snot like, and I’ve been handling snot all morning at work so, I’ll go with my experience there. I'm  not sure something grew so much as coalesced.

[ECLS Reefer]

Okay. Two nights with no light (two? Maybe one? I don’t even know what day it is anymore with only 6 hours of sleep in 2 days). The red slimy algae has again disappeared. The blenny in the sump is healthy and happy, as are the inverts. 
 

Les Sump:

 

The DT tank water is clear at least and all the fish still alive though the coral situation remains the same ☹️. Hair algae abounds. Alas, no DT picture since lights were already off 💀

 

Tonights parameters: (and yes the alk doser is off. The mag doser has been running the same so something is using mag.)

 

 

Thoughts?

 

Plan for tomorrow is to suck all the garbage out of the sump. Remove the dying macro, rinse the bio blocks best I can. Remove the old rocks and sand from sump. Remove filter floss from baffle. Clean skimmer. Change water. 

[ECLS Reefer]

I wasn’t able to get as much out of the sump as I’d have liked today, because I was sick with a migraine. But I was able to do a 20g water change, pull a bunch of nasty crap out of all the chambers. Pulled out dead algae, old dead coral chunks. Cleaned some of the DT sand. Have made thin strips of FF just to catch the garbage I’ve stirred and help further remove it from the sump, but allow as water flow as possible. And thinking of making a grid type insert to go in the baffle instead of floss to catch algae but keep the blenny in there from getting near the return pump. 
 

Will try to get to sand and rock removal next week. Medium steps instead of huge steps or baby steps, right?

 

Will do parameter testing tomorrow to see how today’s actions helped the tank.
 

 

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

PH seems really high for a home tank even considering the high level of alkalinity.

 

Most folks struggle with some level of excess carbon dioxide -- especially during colder months -- and this tends to hold pH under 7.9 in most cases, sometimes quite a bit lower than that.

 

Whereas your pH trend seems to be spot on with sea water somehow.  

 

If you have not disabled the macroalgae yet, I would do it.

 

People strive for high pH, but not really for that great of reasons. At least in my opinion.

 

There are some studies the point to faster coral growth, and I think  faster coral growth is what most people have in mind when they target higher pH.

 

But the truth is that faster growing corals do not seem to be as healthy in some ways and there are also bad potential side effects from running pH on the higher side versus on the lower side. (some coral related some not.)

 

Corals actually have a demand for carbon dioxide during photosynthesis, so if your system is actually depleted in carbon dioxide that may be part of your coral problem.

 

Shut down that macroalgae. 👍

 

…and get to plucking that algae by hand before it gets too far out of control. 👌  (Google melev's YouTube video on pulling hair algae if you haven't gone through this before.)

 

…and get some sleep! 😴

[seabass]

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

get some sleep!

+1

[spectra]

Sleep is over rated................

 

 

[ECLS Reefer]

8 hours ago, mcarroll said:

PH seems really high for a home tank even considering the high level of alkalinity.

 

Most folks struggle with some level of excess carbon dioxide -- especially during colder months -- and this tends to hold pH under 7.9 in most cases, sometimes quite a bit lower than that.

 

Whereas your pH trend seems to be spot on with sea water somehow.  

 

If you have not disabled the macroalgae yet, I would do it.

 

People strive for high pH, but not really for that great of reasons. At least in my opinion.

 

There are some studies the point to faster coral growth, and I think  faster coral growth is what most people have in mind when they target higher pH.

 

But the truth is that faster growing corals do not seem to be as healthy in some ways and there are also bad potential side effects from running pH on the higher side versus on the lower side. (some coral related some not.)

 

Corals actually have a demand for carbon dioxide during photosynthesis, so if your system is actually depleted in carbon dioxide that may be part of your coral problem.

 

Shut down that macroalgae. 👍

 

…and get to plucking that algae by hand before it gets too far out of control. 👌  (Google melev's YouTube video on pulling hair algae if you haven't gone through this before.)

 

…and get some sleep! 😴

I though having be 8.1-8.3 was okay? Mostly I though a solid 8 was always the goal. I’ll be honest, I can do many things but not math, and I haven’t figured out how to dose according to how much per day is needed based on parameters. Because I’m a mental deficient sometimes. 
 

I’ll pull the rest of the macro out today. I did watch the video about pulling GHA- none of mine is super long. Maybe scrubbing with a toothbrush would do better. 
 

As for the CO2, are you saying it has too much flow? Or that the macro is taking up the CO2?

[seabass]

42 minutes ago, Dirté Sanchez said:

Mostly I though a solid 8 was always the goal. I’ll be honest, I can do many things but not math, and I haven’t figured out how to dose according to how much per day is needed based on parameters.

In general, you wouldn't normally dose for pH.  Keep alkalinity within your target range and usually pH will be acceptable.  CO2 will lower pH, so things like high CO2 in your house, dosing Kalk, or a calcium reactor can all cause low pH levels.

[jack1978]

Late to the party.

 

Regarding the sump, I would....

1. Remove all macro.

2. Remove all sand.

3. Remove all rock and rubble. 

4. Clean all equipment.

 

IMO, your sump would serve your tank best as an area just for housing mechanical filtration, heaters and maybe a reactor if you choose to run one.  

 

Simple and easy to keep clean is better than all the shit catching clutter. 

 

 

 

 

[ECLS Reefer]

40 minutes ago, jack1978 said:

Late to the party.

 

Regarding the sump, I would....

1. Remove all macro.

2. Remove all sand.

3. Remove all rock and rubble. 

4. Clean all equipment.

 

IMO, your sump would serve your tank best as an area just for housing mechanical filtration, heaters and maybe a reactor if you choose to run one.  

 

Simple and easy to keep clean is better than all the shit catching clutter. 

 

 

 

 

Some of the shit catching I can’t avoid- the little sump wasn’t built too roomy. But once I clean out the stuff out of the middle I can pull the FF completely. Just need a way to keep the blenny away from the return pump. 

[ECLS Reefer]

Any ideas on that? I was thinking a small section of plastic grid like what they make for sitting skimmers on. Water will pass thru but it should block it to the fish.

[righttirefire]

Im late to the party. And didnt do any back reading.  So my 2 cents arent worth anything

 

But: smile and say something nice to your husband today.

[FISHnChix]

28 minutes ago, Dirté Sanchez said:

Some of the shit catching I can’t avoid- the little sump wasn’t built too roomy. But once I clean out the stuff out of the middle I can pull the FF completely. Just need a way to keep the blenny away from the return pump. 

Yea I'm with jack get all that bs out of there.. did you ditch all that chemical filtration too? If it was me I would only run a small amount of carbon.. there is a calculator on brs for carbon too..

 

 

[ECLS Reefer]

2 hours ago, righttirefire said:

Im late to the party. And didnt do any back reading.  So my 2 cents arent worth anything

 

But: smile and say something nice to your husband today.

Too late he made me mad by conveniently having to leave for work, making me have to decorate the house all by myself AGAIN. He’s the master of foisting stuff on me he doesn’t want to do.