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Snow_Phoenix

Snow's Empty 60G - Post-hybrid TTM QT

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Snow_Phoenix

My female clownfish, Nero, has a very large belly - it looks larger today than it was yesterday. She is turning 3-years-old this Dec. 

 

My male clownfish, Sushi, is almost ~2.5-years-old. 

 

Is it possible that my female is about to lay her first clutch of eggs? Her behavior has changed these past ~2 weeks. Usually both my clowns stick to the upper water column of the tank, lately they have been closer to the rocks, and even sandbed. Also, if my angelfish gets too close, Nero (fem.) literally tail-slaps him in the face. 

 

She has never done that before. :blink:

 

I only have experience with spawning pairs of hi-fin gobies & scooter dragonets, but not clownfish. Is there anything I should expect? Or should I just leave them both to it? 🤷‍♀️

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Snow_Phoenix

Bad pics, but she's sleeping sideways along my waterline, and most of her body is blocked by the tank's upper sticker. 

 

Part of her belly:

 

20211024_204320.thumb.jpg.f9ff890d743b669400e2d8ae0d9b9bfb.jpg

 

White 'tube' from the belly (?) - which I assume is how she'll deposit her eggs eventually:

 

20211024_204416.thumb.jpg.c5b3c350c64eda8958428d32b1e864e5.jpg

 

^The angle of the shot isn't too good. Will try to get a better pic of her tomorrow morning. 👍

 

Lights are already off for the night. 

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seabass
45 minutes ago, Snow_Phoenix said:

I only have experience with spawning pairs of hi-fin gobies & scooter dragonets, but not clownfish. Is there anything I should expect? Or should I just leave them both to it?

Yeah, she will likely will lay her eggs during lights out (or very close to lights out).  The male will tend to the the eggs for about a week, then the larvae will hatch.  In another week or so, they'll likely do it all over again.

 

Raising the larvae takes some preparation.  You'll need both, good sized phyto and rotifer cultures.  The larvae need a dense population of live rotifers to initially feed on.  If you are serious about raising them, read Clownfishes, by Joyce D. Wilkerson ($9 eBook).

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Snow_Phoenix
1 hour ago, seabass said:

Yeah, she will likely will lay her eggs during lights out (or very close to lights out).  The male will tend to the the eggs for about a week, then the larvae will hatch.  In another week or so, they'll likely do it all over again.

 

Raising the larvae takes some preparation.  You'll need both, good sized phyto and rotifer cultures.  The larvae need a dense population of live rotifers to initially feed on.  If you are serious about raising them, read Clownfishes, by Joyce D. Wilkerson ($9 eBook).

Right now, I have no plans to raise the larvae (not at all prepared for it) - but I'll definitely do some reading on it. Thank you so much for the ebook link! 😊

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seabass
31 minutes ago, Snow_Phoenix said:

Right now, I have no plans to raise the larvae (not at all prepared for it)

No problem, I have clownfish eggs hatching a couple of times a month that I'm not raising.  The larvae become food for the fish, coral, and anemones in the tank.  Even the clownfish will eat the larvae after they hatch.  I have phyto and rotifer cultures, but currently not the time to raise them.  Eventually I hope to raise a clutch (at least until they are self sufficient juveniles and are able to be sold).

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Snow_Phoenix
16 hours ago, seabass said:

Yeah, she will likely will lay her eggs during lights out (or very close to lights out).  The male will tend to the the eggs for about a week, then the larvae will hatch.  In another week or so, they'll likely do it all over again.

 

Raising the larvae takes some preparation.  You'll need both, good sized phyto and rotifer cultures.  The larvae need a dense population of live rotifers to initially feed on.  If you are serious about raising them, read Clownfishes, by Joyce D. Wilkerson ($9 eBook).

Seabass, it's not pregnancy. It's dropsy & velvet, and appears to be in the final stages. I'm quite shocked. And overwhelmed too. 😔

 

The only disease this tank does have, to the best of my knowledge, is Ich. Tank does have a history of Black Ich as well - but I did try my best to eradicate it with WCs & prazi to minimal effect - ended up losing 4 dragonets, and only managed to save 3 of them. 😔

 

I'm not sure how velvet even got into this tank. The last fish addition was my singapore angel but that was weeks ago. 

 

I did run into some temp. issues lately which did cause a flare up of Ich in my GCG (no other fish showed external symptoms). Also, I did have water quality issues because I stirred up too much gunk in the sump. 

 

Nero can't swim properly at all today. Yesterday, her belly was big, but today it's bloated. Her eyes look like they are about to pop out. And there are bubbles (?) on her scales under her lower fins. Scales are raised in pinecone-fashion. The gold dust only started to appear this afternoon. 

 

I tried to net her but she's difficult to catch surprisingly. Will be setting up a QT in a few hours (ankle is very painful atm) but I'm not sure what I can do. 

 

I'll try reading up Humblefish's articles, but I have seen dropsy in FW fish before, and even in early stages, with all the correct meds, I've lost the fish. 😔

 

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Snow_Phoenix

She's almost gone. It's happening too quickly. 

 

20211025_141943.thumb.jpg.eebb26651abdf4950294072cb139b01f.jpg

 

I'm still trying to process this. 😔

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Snow_Phoenix

She died about an hour ago. 😭

 

20211025_182250.thumb.jpg.663b9b30607cb7c0973f1b8fdfcf5318.jpg

 

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This is my first experience with velvet. It hit so fast, and I didn't even know it'll kill in 12 to 16 hours. 😭😭😭

 

I searched online for a store that might sell acriflavin or metronidazole - by luck, I actually found one local shop that does. So I purchased both. Next month, I'll work on grabbing some albendazole, kanamycin, erythromycin and formalin (all in powdered form). 

 

Formalin used to be banned here, so I'm surprised that it is finally being allowed to be used to treat fish. 🤔

 

There were other various antibiotics available, but kanamycin is broad-spectrum (if I'm not mistaken), so it should cover most antibacterial infections. 

 

They also had potassium permanganate - something worth looking into since I keep discus. 

 

The meds aren't cheap, which is why I'm only buying 2 or 3 at a time. 

 

I already have Prazi and Furan 2 (for Zoa Pox). The rest are Malachite Green & Methylene blue, which are for my FW fish. 

 

I'm monitoring my other fish closely for any changes in behavior or physical profile. If I can successfully trap my GCG and my 3 wrasses, then I can catch the rest of the fish & QT everyone downstairs to treat them, while letting the DT go fallow for 2+ months. 

 

Problem is I've tried numerous times to catch all of my fish and failed repeatedly - and I've almost exhausted all the methods that I can think of. 🤔

 

If I'm successful, I'll have to QT the dragonets separately as well - they don't fare well with most meds. 

 

We have an extended water cut tomorrow for 24, going on to possibly 36 hours. The downtime will give me some time to think & plan. I'll read up more on Humblefish's articles as well - different diseases, and how best to treat them. 

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debbeach13

So sorry to read about Sushi passing.

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Snow_Phoenix
1 hour ago, debbeach13 said:

So sorry to read about Sushi passing.

Sushi is alive. He's the male of the pair and orange. 

 

It was Nero (the black female) that died. 😔

 

Happened too fast. 😔

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debbeach13
1 hour ago, Snow_Phoenix said:

It was Nero (the black female) that died. 😔

Sorry I mixed up the names. 

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Snow_Phoenix
4 minutes ago, debbeach13 said:

Sorry I mixed up the names. 

No worries. I mix them up sometimes as well. 

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A.m.P

The rapid mortality and the foggy-popeye definitely sounds like brook, but velvet can cause similar issues and frequently "tags along", either way it does seem as if you'll need to get everyone out, treat them, and go fallow.
It's awful how quickly your clown passed, I hope you'll be able to recruit some family assistance moving rocks out and about to catch everyone and medicate, definitely glad you were able to find medications and humblefish is an incredible resource.

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Snow_Phoenix
20 minutes ago, A.m.P said:

The rapid mortality and the foggy-popeye definitely sounds like brook, but velvet can cause similar issues and frequently "tags along", either way it does seem as if you'll need to get everyone out, treat them, and go fallow.
It's awful how quickly your clown passed, I hope you'll be able to recruit some family assistance moving rocks out and about to catch everyone and medicate, definitely glad you were able to find medications and humblefish is an incredible resource.

I'm still puzzled over how velvet entered my system. I can't do any moving or trapping yet - not until the water cut is over, and even then you'll need to wait for a week or so (just to be safe) because the new water will usually be murky & brownish yellow. 

 

I also need to wait for *all of the meds to arrive. I've just placed kanamycin, erythromycin, formalin & albendazole in my cart, but I can only purchase those next month because I overstretched my budget for this month. 

 

At least the acriflavin & metronidazole should arrive in a few days. Need to devise a treatment plan too. Quite stressed out thinking about it. 😕

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Snow_Phoenix

Hmm. I've decided to split the fish to 2 separate QT bins on account of their sensitivity towards any meds that I will be adding in the QTs. 

 

So, here are my tentative bin stocking plans. 

 

QT Bin #1:

 

-3x dragonets

-3x wrasses

-1x GCG

 

QT Bin #2:

 

-1x Clownfish

-1x Dartfish

-1x Foxface

-1× Angelfish

 

Bin #2 will be much larger on account of the fish being larger, and will be placed on my sideporch. Bin #1 will be smaller and located downstairs in the library. 

 

From what I can gather, I have Ich, *possibly Brook (need to confirm with Humblefish - will shoot him a PM later, with some pics) & velvet. I don't think I have any flukes, but I'll be treating the fish for it as a precautionary measure. 

 

I have prazi on hand already, so the first round of treatment will be with prazi. I should have acriflavin & metro soon, so next two & three rounds of treatment will be with those. 

 

I should be able to acquire kanamycin, formalin, nitrofurazone, albendazole & erythromycin within the next 3 to 4 weeks. I don't think the antibacterial meds will be necessary, but I'll just keep them in the cupboard - just in case any of the fish develop lesions etc. 

 

As for the formalin, I believe this is supposed to be used to treat brook. I'll wait on this one, and do more reading & ask more experienced forum members first. 

 

So, tentative treatment mode:

 

1st round: Prazi + TTM (for flukes & Ich ---> should take 2 weeks to clear)

 

2nd round: Acriflavin (for 1 week)

 

3rd round: *Formalin baths/Formalin (need to check if this necessary, and for how long)

 

4th round: Rest until fallow period is over*

 

*Will only use kanamycin if required. 

 

Prazi should be able to combat internal parasites as well, so albendazole will be unnecessary for now. 

 

Meds used in Bin #1 (dragonets & wrasses) will be at half dose only. Meds used in Bin #2 will be at full dose. 

 

Once all the fish have recovered, I'll rehome the angel at my primary LFS. I really would love to hold on to my foxface though. Mainly because she's peaceful, and one of personal favorites. 😕

 

I'll be frank - I'm expecting to lose some fish during the treatments. The TTMs, change in QTs and even meds will be stressful on all of them. I'm especially worried about my dragonets. They don't fare well in sterile QTs, and often lose interest in food. 😔

 

I have to pull out *all the rocks in my DT to get the fish out. Will try asking my parents for help on this one. I need to wait a week more before I can execute any of this. 

 

When the water comes back, it'll be unsafe for use for a few days. 

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DevilDuck

Sorry about Nero. Sounds like you have a good plan to quickly stamp out whatever it is. I hope @Humblefish Can give you a positive id and treatments protocol. 

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Snow_Phoenix

PMed Humblefish already. Hope he can help. 😔

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debbeach13

Wow that is a solid plan and a lot of work. Please be careful not to put yourself at risk by overdoing it. I hope the treatments work and save the fish but I am more concerned about you.

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Snow_Phoenix
38 minutes ago, debbeach13 said:

Wow that is a solid plan and a lot of work. Please be careful not to put yourself at risk by overdoing it. I hope the treatments work and save the fish but I am more concerned about you.

I am quite worried about myself too actually. I'm still unwell. And the first round of treatment with TTM & Prazi will require a lot of precise timing as well as physical work to clean out & swap the bins, and mix up new batches of SW. 

 

My mum suggested *not splitting the fish into 2 bins, but simply use 1 large bin to minimize the work. She's quite worried over my ankle. I'm still doing physio every week at the hospital, but recovery is very slow. 😕

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A.m.P

So, a few quick things I spotted; you'll need copper if you want to kick velvet (TTM really works best/only on ich).
Acriflavine is basically a replacement for formalin when it comes to dips, much gentler on fish, some folks do it before a brief peroxide dip (which you can find instructions for on humblefish's website).

Metro, combined with an initial acriflavine bath, I believe is the preferred treatment for brooklynella.

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Snow_Phoenix
27 minutes ago, A.m.P said:

So, a few quick things I spotted; you'll need copper if you want to kick velvet (TTM really works best/only on ich).
Acriflavine is basically a replacement for formalin when it comes to dips, much gentler on fish, some folks do it before a brief peroxide dip (which you can find instructions for on humblefish's website).

Metro, combined with an initial acriflavine bath, I believe is the preferred treatment for brooklynella.

There's absolutely no way to do this without copper? 

 

That's the only med I'm truly worried about because I'm trying my best to avoid accidental cross-contamination (even through equipment) which might accidently affect my nanoreef.

 

If there's no choice, then I'll get it. Usually I use TTM for Ich and it works well - but velvet is a first for me, so I'm doing as much reading as I can on Humblefish's write-ups on the site. I'll probably have to go through it several times. 

My mind is full of other things, presently. And this is exerting a lot of stress on me - I was really hoping I could save my clownfish somehow. She meant a lot to me. 😞

 

I'll try my best to save the others, but I'm mentally bracing myself for some losses in the upcoming weeks. 😞 

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A.m.P

The decision would be yours to make, people *have* successfully treated velvet with TTM and repeated freshwater/acriflavine dips, but the best description for velvet is like a more resilient ich with 100x the metabolism. There frequently aren't well-defined "generations" of velvet as there are dozens and dozens of times more organisms all reproducing at increasingly-varied rates.
From my understanding this is why ich can seem to "come and go" because of its' slower life cyle, whereas velvet can kill an entire system before any fish is even visibly-symptomatic.

 

If it would give you peace of mind you could drop some cuprisorb or similar media into the nano while things are in QT, but the trace contamination you might end up with would most-likely be harmless or eliminated through waterchanges.

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Snow_Phoenix
12 hours ago, A.m.P said:

The decision would be yours to make, people *have* successfully treated velvet with TTM and repeated freshwater/acriflavine dips, but the best description for velvet is like a more resilient ich with 100x the metabolism. There frequently aren't well-defined "generations" of velvet as there are dozens and dozens of times more organisms all reproducing at increasingly-varied rates.
From my understanding this is why ich can seem to "come and go" because of its' slower life cyle, whereas velvet can kill an entire system before any fish is even visibly-symptomatic.

 

If it would give you peace of mind you could drop some cuprisorb or similar media into the nano while things are in QT, but the trace contamination you might end up with would most-likely be harmless or eliminated through waterchanges.

I spoke with Humblefish, and he suggested peroxide treatment in the DT instead of QT. Mostly because the dragonets will perish in QT, and the peroxide treatment has the best chance of bringing the parasite load to a more manageable level with minimal casualties. 

 

I think I will follow through with his approach to this. Since my tank is a FOWLR, there are no corals to monitor (or potentially lose) during treatment. 

 

I checked my storage cupboard; I do have a small bottle of peroxide but it has expired. I'm planning on heading down to the pharmacy later to see if I can get a new bottle there. 👍

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Snow_Phoenix

My Acriflavine & Metronidazole has just arrived. Also managed to nip out and quickly pick up a large bottle of medical-grade peroxide. Since it is at 6%, it will have to be diluted to 3% prior to each dosing - or simply dosed at half of the recommended dose (I personally think dilution is better). 

 

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I've also read incidents of cleaner shrimp dying during this treatment. I don't have a cleaner shrimp, but I do have a Fire shrimp which I safely managed to net out in under 2 mins by pure luck:

 

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And I pat him dry using paper towels (to remove as much of the water from him) before dropping him into my nanoreef, which is already fishless & currently going fallow until the end of Dec:

 

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Looking back at these shots, I hadn't realized that my saron shrimp, Harvey, was even in the background. 👀

 

Anyhow, Pyro the fire shrimp seems to be fitting in well. 

 

Peroxide treatment in the 60G will begin some time tonight, once I've mapped out a proper schedule (including the dilution & relevant dosages) on paper later. 

 

I am stressed out, but so are some of the fish. I'll try my best, but *hopefully most of them can make it through it. 

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Snow_Phoenix

Peroxide treatment creates a lot of byproducts in the tank. So I replaced my older carbon with 500g of carbon from this 1kg pack:

 

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It seems like overkill, but I'm playing it safe, I guess. (?)

 

My sump looks terrible though. It is full of accumulated dirt, the water is brown like tea 🤢 & there is GHA layered with detritus everywhere:

 

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Trying to do a half-hearted clean up of this area a week ago is what triggered a cascade of issues in the DT, and with the fish. 😔

 

I'll need to do an aggressive, complete clean up of all areas (except the fuge) to siphon out as much dirt as possible as replace it with freshly made SW. 

 

I'm tentatively planning on doing this tomorrow, but in stages throughout the day to avoid straining my foot or overexhausting myself. 

 

There is still a lot of microfauna among the dirt:

 

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And the fuge is 50% full (I had a die off of macro few weeks ago) and still has various critters in it:

 

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I'm not sure if I should start the peroxide dosing tonight or if I should wait after I clean the sump. 🤔

 

Velvet is an emergency situation though. So maybe (?) I'll dilute & dose tonight at 9pm+. 

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