Seafurn's Old School Pico featuring Chrysophytes, Cyano, and Brown Algae

[SeaFurn]

5 minutes ago, WV Reefer said:

I need the yellow ones!! 🤩

Let me grow a couple more (as long as I don’t kill them all!) and I’ll send you some! 

[WV Reefer]

1 minute ago, SeaFurn said:

Let me grow a couple more (as long as I don’t kill them all!) and I’ll send you some! 

Yay! 😃 that would be awesome!

[Reefkid88]

 Once these leds come in for my "moonlight/actinic" part of my light she will be ready to rock. V3.1 array with an added 3 royals and 3 violets foe that extra punch and night time light. 

 

 Gotta have that 300+ par for Acro's 😉

[kimdawg]

Your tank is peaking at the perfect time.  I love the yellow zoas as well.  Do you know the name of them?

[SeaFurn]

10 hours ago, kimdawg said:

Your tank is peaking at the perfect time.  I love the yellow zoas as well.  Do you know the name of them?

Yeah, it's looking much better right at the end here.  Not sure about the acro though. Going to post a close up and ask for some opinions on it.
If you're talking about the zoas on the right side of the picture, they are called Blondies!  

[SeaFurn]

So here's a close-up of the pink lemonade acro (what's left of it - see earlier posts for that story).  The photo was taken just with the orange filter so you can get a good look at it.  

My question for the experts is - is it lightening up getting some color back at the bottom (always the optimist I suppose) or is dying?  Under natural light it doesn't really have the bright white dead skeleton look that I've seen before.  BUT, it could just be the way it is dying which is what I'm thinking is happening.  It's directly under the PAR38 bulb but not sure that's even enough light for this one.    

 

 

 

[Reefkid88]

Unfortunately that definitely looks like its gonna be a goner,the base doesn't look promising whatsoever. 

 

 I would maybe leave it be and are how it does,but by money it may be gone. 

[A.m.P]

Sometimes acros and millies can come back from a single polyp, but slow-tissue necrosis, especially from direct-trauma, is usually too much for the animals to handle, even with iodine-dips.

[SeaFurn]

1 hour ago, Reefkid88 said:

Unfortunately that definitely looks like its gonna be a goner,the base doesn't look promising whatsoever. 

 

 I would maybe leave it be and are how it does,but by money it may be gone. 

 

27 minutes ago, Amphrites said:

Sometimes acros and millies can come back from a single polyp, but slow-tissue necrosis, especially from direct-trauma, is usually too much for the animals to handle, even with iodine-dips.

 

Thanks....that's what I thought.  Bummer.

[Reefkid88]

Give it some time,it may just slowly gain tissue back and make a full recovery. 

[Christopher Marks]

Hi there @SeaFurn 👋 Can you believe it has been 7 months already? I hope it's been a fun journey!

 

This is a friendly reminder to post your final competition FTS and a 1 to 2 paragraph recap of your experience in the pico reef competition. Be sure to share your future plans for your pico reef as well, will it continue forward or get an upgrade? The competition ends on Sunday October 27th at midnight!

 

Thank you for being a part of the Old School Pico Reef Competition! ❤️ 

[SeaFurn]

Can't believe we are at the finish line for this contest.  For me it's been quite an experience.  First, I'd like to give a big THANK YOU to @Got Corals - Sandy and Ramiro - and JW - for their support, guidance, a catchy title for the thread, and some awesome coral selections!  I couldn't have done it without them. I'd encourage you to check them out and support their business.  I was so glad to have met them in person at MACNA this year - which I might not have had the chance to had it not been for this contest.   

 

As far as the NOTORIOS P-I-C-O goes, I love it - despite the challenges I've had!    We'll start with those -

 

Zoas - I think I've turned the corner with them but for weeks they wouldn't open.  Several I got at MACNA didn't make it at all. And a robust frag of purple/yellow (Bob Marley's?) disintegrated - except for 3 polyps which I think make a comeback.  I have no idea why.  I think feeding the tank more - mostly using phyto helped.  I also think raising the light might have helped. I'm now seeing some new polyps forming on most of them.

 

Brown Slimy Rocks - don't know if this was just due to it being a new tank, dry rock, an ineffective CUC, poor water parameters, or all of them.  I moved my emerald crab from my 45 to the pico to help with the situation but I'm afraid it did a number on the stylo.  I fragged it and it will grow back but it was such a nice piece to start with that it bums me out. I ended up taking the rocks out and scrubbing them with a brush and that along with a full tank cleaning and water change seemed to do the trick.

 

The Pink Lemonade Acro - still bummed this one didn't fare so well during the trip home from MACNA.  I'm sure it's probably something I did - and most likely I did not keep the water parameters stable enough during the trip.  I keep wondering if I would have had it shipped to me like a normal order if things would have turned out differently.  I also am not sure I was keeping the water parameters stable enough when I first added the little part I was able to save.  I know it's a much more sensitive acro than the digis that are doing well.  I may try another more demanding acro at some point.

 

Photography - still not one of my stronger skills.  It's improved but sure not to the level of @Tigahboy and some of the other contestants.  Oh well.

 

Finding Time - to view and comment on other contestants threads. I really had hoped to do that more but it's been tough.  There are some amazing tanks out there and I'm sorry I didn't participate as much as I would have liked.

 

Positives - (in no particular order)

 

The Tidal 55 - it's a beast and so quiet.  It was big enough that I could hid the tank's heater inside and it housed a rack for carbon and filter floss. I set it so that only used the surface skimmer.  The main drawback of the filter was how much shade it created in the tank. I had to plan the scape with that in mind. 

 

12W ABi Tuna Blue PAR 38 bulb - I'm still amazed a $24 light can grow corals like it does.  It does make it tough to photograph but luckily I'm looking at the tank more than photographing it!

 

Bare bottom tank - I miss the look of the sand but not the maintenance.  It's a game changer when it comes to that. I did not notice it impacting the parameters compared to a tank with sand at all.

 

Evaporation - I've been surprised how little there is day to day. I do keep the lid on though.   I'll keep my eye on it as winter arrives and dry air takes over.  An ATO would be nice but it's really not been necessary with this tank. 

 

The Frogspawn, Digis, Stylo, and Psammocora - all of these corals thrived in the tank - despite any of my early parameter swings (mostly alk).

 

The Shark Nose Goby - such a cool little fish.  It really added a lot of personality to the tank.  Somehow he's ended up in the filter twice but now that he's bigger he always comes to the front of the tank when I'm in front of it.  I recommend this fish for any pico!

 

Plans for the future - I plan to keep this tank going!  I want to add more zoas, some acans, ricordia, and another acro.  I've thought about upgrading to a UNS rimless but the janky tank has grown on me.  I bought a Kessil A80 from @William  thinking I was going to swap the PAR 38 for it but I ended up using that on my 45 for moonlights instead.  I may upgrade the PAR 38 at some point to ensure there's enough light for an acro or two but we'll see.   So the plan for now is just to keep the parameters stable and keep adding corals where ever there is space!

 

Thank you to everyone who followed along, commented, and given me advice along the way.  It's why I love this site so much.   Now on to the photos -

 

Final FTS's:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Coral

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Goby 

 

 

 

That's All Folks!

[debbeach13]

Congratulations making it into the finals. You had a couple little bumps in the road but in my opinion this tank did great. I wish you could tell us what did the trick for the zoa's. Well no matter the corals looks great and the colors Wow. The filter choice cracks me up! I have the same one on a 20L. Good luck

[This guy is extra salty]

Yes please do tell about the zoanthid trick!
Did you ever change out the filter pads on the hob?

[SeaFurn]

On 11/3/2019 at 1:21 PM, debbeach13 said:

Congratulations making it into the finals. You had a couple little bumps in the road but in my opinion this tank did great. I wish you could tell us what did the trick for the zoa's. Well no matter the corals looks great and the colors Wow. The filter choice cracks me up! I have the same one on a 20L. Good luck

Yeah the filter was a bit overkill I suppose. My original plan was an all SPS pico and I didn’t want any other equipment in the tank so I was looking for max flow from it.

It’s actually a great filter! 

On 11/9/2019 at 9:56 PM, This guy is extra salty said:

Yes please do tell about the zoanthid trick!
Did you ever change out the filter pads on the hob?

 

Things started looking up with the zoas when I did this -

 

-started changing only a couple cups of water every other week instead of weekly 50% water changes

 

- started dosing live phytoplankton every other or every third day

 

- started dosing aminos (5 drops per day for the first month - then 3 drops every 3 or 4 days)

 

- only changed the filter floss every 3 weeks. It was pretty dirty when I did. 

 

[SeaFurn]

After the contest I ran into some problems.  Link to that nightmare is here.   Going to try to get back to posting here so as to keep the history in this thread.

 

 

[mcarroll]

(Posting here instead of the other thread as requested!  😉)

 

  

1 hour ago, SeaFurn said:

Latest tests results:

1.026

alk 8.15   

nitrates 10   

ca 420   

mg  1425

phos 0

 

The bubble gum digitata was looking a little rough today - and the psamacora looks like it's got some tissue receding right in the lower front (not in an area that's shaded).  Zoas still good except for that one damn frag of butt kissers.  I've heard they are really really finicky.  Going on over a month of being closed for business.  The frogspawn and hammer looked good and full.   Ricorida all good. 

Having nitrates "upside down" with phosphates like that is dangerous to corals and their relationship with their dino's.....PO4 is necessary to the photosynthesis process.

 

If you still have the materials to dose PO4, you apparently still need to keep it up.

 

56 minutes ago, SeaFurn said:

Have you ever seen the gradient scale on the Salifert Phospahte test?

Same kit I use....the higher readings should be a lot easier to read, so maybe try it out?  If you're using Seachem Phosphorous, just calculate a 0.25 ppm dose here:  https://www.seachem.com/calculators.php   

 

Or you might want to consider a Hanna or Milwaukee digital PO4 tester so a computer can do the interpretation for you.  It's a good option if you need it....not bad cost-wise, but slightly fussier to use due to the necessary glass labware.

 

1 hour ago, SeaFurn said:

Yeah, gonna have to get in there tomorow and do this - or take the rocks out and scrub them off.  It's getting really thick in some areas.  The really red algae is taking over in some spots too.  Luckily I can blow alot of that off with the baster and it gets sucked up into the filter. 

Taking the rocks out will set you back farther.  You want to pluck it all off little by little....be patient and be thorough.   It seems to help if you work in small patches.  The tougher the algae, the smaller the patch you should select to work in during a given session.

 

I agree that this is cyano and over all a good sign....but without a good source of PO4 in the water, everything else that needs it is going to stagnate.

 

 

[SeaFurn]

22 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Same kit I use....the higher readings should be a lot easier to read, so maybe try it out?  If you're using Seachem Phosphorous, just calculate a 0.25 ppm dose here:  https://www.seachem.com/calculators.php   

What phosphate level will end up being harmful or lethal to the corals?  I'm willing to give your suggestion a shot and dose and test 30 min later and keep going like that until I get a reading but I don't want to inadvertantly harm the corals if I don't get a reading because the kit is bad or something and the actual level in the tank is sky high.

 

In other news - 

Snails arrived today - a day early.  Added a  small trochus, several dwarf ceriths and two small hermits that have already been picking their way around the rocks. 

I'm seriously leaning toward moving everything to my available Lifegard 4.1 gallon AIO this weekend.  It will give me a little more room to work on the rocks.  The HOB takes up a lot of room right now.  I'm also considering adding sand if I do and move away from barebottom.  

I think the Forest Fire is definitely gone.  Will pull it this weekend. 

 

@jservedio - I'll be posting updates on the chrysophtye battle here now. Hope you'll tag along. 

[A.m.P]

I'd say around 2 or 3 would probably be lethal in time, 4 or 5 would probably cause immediate RTN, anything under 0.3 (for established tanks some end up with 0.8+) is probably fine, in the same vein elevated nitrate levels over 5 (functionally usually higher than this) or so without any P04 cause the animals to starve for phosphate and can cause significant damage.

[mcarroll]

4 hours ago, SeaFurn said:

What phosphate level will end up being harmful or lethal to the corals?  I'm willing to give your suggestion a shot and dose and test 30 min later and keep going like that until I get a reading but I don't want to inadvertantly harm the corals if I don't get a reading because the kit is bad or something and the actual level in the tank is sky high.

 

In other news - 

Snails arrived today - a day early.  Added a  small trochus, several dwarf ceriths and two small hermits that have already been picking their way around the rocks. 

I'm seriously leaning toward moving everything to my available Lifegard 4.1 gallon AIO this weekend.  It will give me a little more room to work on the rocks.  The HOB takes up a lot of room right now.  I'm also considering adding sand if I do and move away from barebottom.  

I think the Forest Fire is definitely gone.  Will pull it this weekend. 

 

@jservedio - I'll be posting updates on the chrysophtye battle here now. Hope you'll tag along. 

I think @seabass first reported the article where some crazy scientists grew Acro's in up to 5.0 ppm to assess negative side effects. 

 

• The corals seemed healthier* than corals grown at typical phosphate levels
• grew faster
• but were more breakable.    
• No apparent stress whatsoever though.

 

* Even growing faster and under such ridiculously high levels of PO4, the Acros in the experiment had pigmented tissue all the way to the tips of their branches.  Ie no bare growth tips like we usually see in what seems like almost all fast-growing stony corals.

 

They concluded (in part) that brittle branches made them somehow "less fit" so categorized that effect as a problem.  Respectfully, I disagree with that conclusion.

 

But I suspect they didn't really assess the nature of the side-effects that deeply...they were mostly concerned with cataloging side-effects at the various levels they were testing.   

 

My thoughts...

IMO if the corals are "more healthy" AND fragging more, that doesn't that equate to success?  The coral is successfully making use of available nutrients in a reproductive strategy oriented toward spreading it's DNA over a wider geographic area.   Isn't that literally the definition of a win for life??  To me at least, it seems like one version of success for a coral. 

 

Corals haven't retained this vegetative method of reproduction (along with their other methods!) by accident or chance.....it's a method to survive and spread!

 

This seems to make sense IMO.....PO4 is a nutrient.  An essential macro nutrient of major importance to corals for basic needs as well as to facilitate photosynthesis AND in keeping their symbiosis with their dino's in a functional state. 

 

Why, being in the position that corals are, would their reaction to an increase in available phosphate be something besides what they found in the test -- a benefit that causes an increase in apparent health, rate of growth, and rate of vegetative spreading?

 

On the other side of the coin, they looked closely at (among other things) phosphate starvation in stony corals (Euphillia in particular) in this article....and lack of phosphate has seriously bad ramifications on all levels....beyond what I already mentioned above:

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

 

Here's a choice graphic from the article, but please click through and read the original if possible....it shows a macro shot of a few polyps, a slice of coral tissue including dino's, and a closeup of the dino's themselves.

 

• All of the low phosphate ("LP") corals look like they're bleached and dying. 
• Both of the high phosphate ("HP") frags look great to the naked eye.
• The "NH/HP" frag looks the best when you consider the macro AND microscopic evidence.

All in all, I don't worry too much about levels unless there's already a problem in the tank.  But if there's a problem, I generally appreciate any and all phosphates.  The evidence seems to support that view...it's almost one of those mytihcal "more is better" situations.   It's not....but almost.  😉  There's certainly no apparent reason to literally shun phosphates like we often do.

[seabass]

Matt, I believe they where testing only up to 0.5ppm.

 

However, their study continued to show better growth as levels increased.  One might suspect that eventually the growth would peak then start to fall back; however the study didn't report on treatment groups higher than 0.5ppm (which is still almost 20 times higher than the < 0.03ppm which is often recommended by many reef keepers).

 

In addition, to faster growth, the coral turned more brown in color due to a higher concentration of zooxanthellae, "It is believed that these Acropora grew faster with increasing phosphate level due to a higher concentration of zooxanthellae, which was also noticeable in the coloration of the corals in the separate treatment groups."

[mcarroll]

Hm...different study then.   And I didn't post either one to my blog unfortunatley....that's my only real way of remember these articles in any detail.  LOL

[seabass]

Yeah, maybe I can try to dig through some old threads for a link.  I get the feeling we've discussed this before.

[mcarroll]

I think I got it.....from a PDF I saved....  😉

Tissue and skeletal changes in the scleractinian coral ...

(PDF is out there)

 

by Claire Godinot & Co summarized some tests in a table....one of which included growing Acro's at up to 8.0 umols/L.....not ppm.   

 

I think 8 umols translates to roughly .76 ppm if my conversion isn't completely off.  (Can someone double check me?)

 

Not as dramatic as 8 ppm I guess LOL, but still pretty dramatic when most folks seem to fret when it gets over 0.03 ppm....or freak out when I suggest a level like 0.25 ppm.

 

So no worries like toxicty when it comes to phosphate levels @SeaFurn!   👍

[A.m.P]

It's becoming more and more difficult to find any of these studies honestly, Google just keeps getting worse and worse for those hunting actual information while continuing to be abused by advertisers and those who benefit from a low-information-state.

 

I had the first link tucked away in a bookmark alongside some of those weird fringe studies on red and green light's effect on sps growth.

 

In the wild at least, starvation and disease onset from ultra-high nitrate agri-indistrial runoff coupled with lower-phosphate levels tends to be the big coral-killer, alongside the increasingly-acidic ocean having depleted its' buffering-capacity (entire limestone/basic shorelines have essentially been liquified down to less-reactive bedrocks), and of course temperature swings which, depending on the species, are more pop-culture sensationalized for their ease-of-understanding than a main-driver for extinction.

 

That all said, I didn't just throw 0.8 out there from nothing lol, nor would I suggest it as a starting point to just dose up to either, but in the context of actually trying to dose P04 to get levels up there's really no reason, apart from ULNS-craze based hysteria, to not just shoot for 0.05-0.1.