Mandarin and Ruby Red Dragonets

[stevejo]

Hey all - I went a little nuts at the latest Petco $/gal sale and ended up with a 29g, 10g, and 5.5g.  Looking into the feasibility of setting up the 10G as an overhead fuge for the 29g.  Essentially I would just mount the 10G on a shelf above the 29g, and use a powerhead in the 29 to push water up into the 10g, then let it overflow back down through a drilled hole on the 10g.

 

Anyhow, I think this will be a great way to focus on growing copepods, which of course leads me straight to a Mandarin.  I would almost certainly go with the Biota green, as they are supposed to eat frozen straight out of the bag.  However, I see my LFS's with tons of Ruby Red Dragonets, which I understand to be similar eaters to the Mandarins.

 

My question is would it be feasible to house one of each in the 29g?  I know that two male Mandarins will end up with aggression, but is there a large enough genetic gap between Mandarins and Ruby Reds to have them peacefully coexist in a tank this size?  Would it matter which was introduced first?  I'd also likely house a pair of ocellaris in there for 6 months or so prior to introducing the dragonets.

 

Also, before the comments roll in, I would likely set this tank up with a slow cycle and a clownfish or two inside to ensure it begins aging, and likely seed pods to the fuge for the better part of six months before bringing either of these in, to ensure that if they refuse frozen, there are plenty of pods for their dining pleasure.

[Snow_Phoenix]

22 minutes ago, stevejo said:

Hey all - I went a little nuts at the latest Petco $/gal sale and ended up with a 29g, 10g, and 5.5g.  Looking into the feasibility of setting up the 10G as an overhead fuge for the 29g.  Essentially I would just mount the 10G on a shelf above the 29g, and use a powerhead in the 29 to push water up into the 10g, then let it overflow back down through a drilled hole on the 10g.

 

Anyhow, I think this will be a great way to focus on growing copepods, which of course leads me straight to a Mandarin.  I would almost certainly go with the Biota green, as they are supposed to eat frozen straight out of the bag.  However, I see my LFS's with tons of Ruby Red Dragonets, which I understand to be similar eaters to the Mandarins.

 

My question is would it be feasible to house one of each in the 29g?  I know that two male Mandarins will end up with aggression, but is there a large enough genetic gap between Mandarins and Ruby Reds to have them peacefully coexist in a tank this size?  Would it matter which was introduced first?  I'd also likely house a pair of ocellaris in there for 6 months or so prior to introducing the dragonets.

 

Also, before the comments roll in, I would likely set this tank up with a slow cycle and a clownfish or two inside to ensure it begins aging, and likely seed pods to the fuge for the better part of six months before bringing either of these in, to ensure that if they refuse frozen, there are plenty of pods for their dining pleasure.

You'll need to build your tank around the fish - as in, preferably add some macro in the DT, feed the tank heavily (up to 4x a day) with a mix of live and frozen, re-seed the tank/fuge with pods regularly etc. etc. It'll be costly keeping one, let alone two. It can be done, just be prepared to put a lot of time, work and effort into it. 
 

[Tamberav]

+1 above...u kept 6 in 20gish with a 20g fuge and I made it a macro tank and fed the crap out of the pods to keep numbers high. It limits what coral you can keep. Having a fuge won't keep the pod population up without food. I also ran a large skimmer and carbon dosed.

[stevejo]

1 hour ago, Tamberav said:

+1 above...u kept 6 in 20gish with a 20g fuge and I made it a macro tank and fed the crap out of the pods to keep numbers high. It limits what coral you can keep. Having a fuge won't keep the pod population up without food. I also ran a large skimmer and carbon dosed.

2 hours ago, Snow_Phoenix said:

You'll need to build your tank around the fish - as in, preferably add some macro in the DT, feed the tank heavily (up to 4x a day) with a mix of live and frozen, re-seed the tank/fuge with pods regularly etc. etc. It'll be costly keeping one, let alone two. It can be done, just be prepared to put a lot of time, work and effort into it. 
 

I assume something like OceanMagik phyto combined with regular dosing of new po ds would be the best bet, no?  After a certain timeframe and enough maturity of the ecosystem in the tank, wouldn't regular phyto feeding combined with overfeeding of other livestock be enough to sustain the pod population?  Lots of folks say that a mandarin will devour a ton of pods, but when I look at something like the 5280 pod pack, and figure in reproductive rates if consistently fed phyto, wouldn't the system would eventually reach an equilibrium?  Or would it be a constant battle of adding more and more pods as the lil guys grow?

 

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative, just legitimately not a ton of resources out there that show the math of how fast copepods reproduce vs how much a mandarin or ruby will eat, save for some anecdotal items.

[Snow_Phoenix]

27 minutes ago, stevejo said:

I assume something like OceanMagik phyto combined with regular dosing of new po ds would be the best bet, no?  After a certain timeframe and enough maturity of the ecosystem in the tank, wouldn't regular phyto feeding combined with overfeeding of other livestock be enough to sustain the pod population?  Lots of folks say that a mandarin will devour a ton of pods, but when I look at something like the 5280 pod pack, and figure in reproductive rates if consistently fed phyto, wouldn't the system would eventually reach an equilibrium?  Or would it be a constant battle of adding more and more pods as the lil guys grow?

 

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative, just legitimately not a ton of resources out there that show the math of how fast copepods reproduce vs how much a mandarin or ruby will eat, save for some anecdotal items.

Truth be told, how much your mandarin eats depends on the condition of your fish (skinny/fat), how good its appetite is (quick-eater/slow-methodical-eater/not-eating) and the size of the fish itself (tiny/small/medium/large). Of course, each fish is different - some fish will straight up refuse to eat even if you throw 20 pod packs into your tank and perish. Others will eat slowly, and a few will actually eat anything you throw into the tank (you have to be very lucky to get a non-fussy dragonet like this).

 

Pods alone won't cut it. Your other livestock (clownfish) will consume pods too. You'll also find that re-seeding pods by purchasing pod packs are very, very expensive long-term. Unless you're very rich or don't mind setting aside the money needed for pods monthly, I don't recommend doing this. Instead, focus on culturing your own pods (not in the fuge, but in a separate bin - and have back up cultures too in case one culture crashes), and mainly - training the fish to eat frozen - especially mysis. The sooner you can wean a fish to frozen, the better. Since you have access to the Biota mandarins, which usually arrive very tiny and have a good rep. for being stable in reef tanks, you *should be okay. A person you can ask more questions about keeping a Mandy long-term is @Tamberav (someone I know who has long-term success with multiple Mandys in one tank) and @banasophia - you can look at her current TOTM thread. She has a Mandy in it, and she goes all out to keep it plump.

 

It's not an easy fish. Not trying to warn you off it, but just be prepared for several things - failure (fish death due to jumping/not eating/starving out/illness) or success (fish lives long, happy life in tank). 

 

I haven't gotten around to culturing my own pods yet. But I seeded my tank with 2x to 3x 500 ml bottles of pods from per week. And my previous Mandy ate a cocktail of live stuff - pods, live BBS (hatched every other day - each hatching gave 3 harvests) and live grindal worms. I fed the tank heavily up to 4x a day and I run a mixed reef. Not all the corals were happy with the excess nutrients but I had a large in-tank fuge packed with LR and macro to compensate and serve as a nutrient export. 

[Tamberav]

24 minutes ago, stevejo said:

I assume something like OceanMagik phyto combined with regular dosing of new po ds would be the best bet, no?  After a certain timeframe and enough maturity of the ecosystem in the tank, wouldn't regular phyto feeding combined with overfeeding of other livestock be enough to sustain the pod population?  Lots of folks say that a mandarin will devour a ton of pods, but when I look at something like the 5280 pod pack, and figure in reproductive rates if consistently fed phyto, wouldn't the system would eventually reach an equilibrium?  Or would it be a constant battle of adding more and more pods as the lil guys grow?

 

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative, just legitimately not a ton of resources out there that show the math of how fast copepods reproduce vs how much a mandarin or ruby will eat, save for some anecdotal items.

I fed my Mandy's frozen heavily which in turn  also fed the pods so they could snack between feedings. It's not hard if you want to set up a dirty system to do so. Just know you may be limited on types of corals. Basically build a tank for the Mandarin.

 

Coral magazine has a issue on dragonettes and Matt Peterson was keeping them in a 29g macro tank. That is that path I took when I did it...I figure successful breeders got their shit together.

 

I am in the process of setting up another mandarin species tank.

 

I still reseeded pods as large amphipods that Mandy's don't necessarily care to eat tend to eventually dominate as the little tisbe ones as they eat them too.

 

Even with all the macro I still carbon dosed and I know the TOTM user does as well. The nutrients can get pretty crazy.... Expect to have to take care of this fish for many years. It won't be a set and forget. It is a closed system after all.

[Snow_Phoenix]

4 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

I fed my Mandy's frozen heavily which in turn fed the pods. It's not hard if you want to set up a dirty system to do so. Just know you may be limited on types of corals. Basically build a tank for the Mandarin.

 

Coral magazine has a issue on dragonettes and Matt Peterson was keeping them in a 29g macro tank. That is that path I took when I did it...I figure successful breeders got their shit together.

 

I am in the process of setting up another mandarin species tank.

 

I still reseeded pods as large amphipods that Mandy's don't necessarily care to eat tend to eventually dominate as the little tisbe ones.

Dirty tank = nutrient rich = many pods = happy Mandy. 🙂 

(It appears we both posted at the same time earlier - @stevejo,Tam has sound advice and better experience than I do - I'd listen to her). 

[stevejo]

Thanks a ton to both of you - @Snow_Phoenix that is just the type of information I was hunting for - the 2-3x 500ml pods per week.  That is a ton more than I had in my brain - I was thinking a 500ml every 2 weeks or so, which is an expense I think I could justify for the beauty of a Mandarin.

 

@Tamberav I wouldn't mind a dirty system.  Corals wouldn't be as important to me in this system as healthy, happy mandarins.  I'd much prefer to just get some pretty macro in the display to help with nutrients, and let the pods munch on the rest.  Use the refugium for less macro and more liverock away from the mandarin for the pods to grow.  The whole purpose of this exercise would be to build a tank where either a pair of Mandarins (if I can find a source that will sell the captive bred ones sexed) or a Mandarin and a Ruby Red could thrive.  Any other anything that went in that tank would be with an eye towards improving it as a Mandarin habitat, or to fill empty space if needed.

 

I've never ordered from them, but it seems like Algae Barn has basically all that would be needed for pod packs, phyto, and Biota mandarins themselves.

 

Do either of you have tank threads on the setups that you kept your Mandarins in?  I pulled up Banasophia's and it's gorgeous, but the more information I can track down the better.  Most of what I am finding on the forums and the internet, in general, is fairly old.

 

Thank you both for the excellent replies and information!  This setup is probably 30 days out at least with my current work schedule, so I'll finish making my way through the Igreen thread and whatever tank journals I can find that include these gorgeous fish.

[Tamberav]

I think my thread got destroyed by photobucket changes but I will find some pics.

[Snow_Phoenix]

My tank thread is a bit of a mess actually. But here are some old pics of Meatball, my Mandarin:

 

 

He died quite recently from a fluke accident. I still miss him. 

[Tamberav]

22 hours ago, stevejo said:

Thanks a ton to both of you - @Snow_Phoenix that is just the type of information I was hunting for - the 2-3x 500ml pods per week.  That is a ton more than I had in my brain - I was thinking a 500ml every 2 weeks or so, which is an expense I think I could justify for the beauty of a Mandarin.

 

@Tamberav I wouldn't mind a dirty system.  Corals wouldn't be as important to me in this system as healthy, happy mandarins.  I'd much prefer to just get some pretty macro in the display to help with nutrients, and let the pods munch on the rest.  Use the refugium for less macro and more liverock away from the mandarin for the pods to grow.  The whole purpose of this exercise would be to build a tank where either a pair of Mandarins (if I can find a source that will sell the captive bred ones sexed) or a Mandarin and a Ruby Red could thrive.  Any other anything that went in that tank would be with an eye towards improving it as a Mandarin habitat, or to fill empty space if needed.

 

I've never ordered from them, but it seems like Algae Barn has basically all that would be needed for pod packs, phyto, and Biota mandarins themselves.

 

Do either of you have tank threads on the setups that you kept your Mandarins in?  I pulled up Banasophia's and it's gorgeous, but the more information I can track down the better.  Most of what I am finding on the forums and the internet, in general, is fairly old.

 

Thank you both for the excellent replies and information!  This setup is probably 30 days out at least with my current work schedule, so I'll finish making my way through the Igreen thread and whatever tank journals I can find that include these gorgeous fish.

Here some pics of the tank and the fat ass beer belly mandys.

 

I had a 20g fuge full of cheato attached to this. 6 Mandy's and the place was crawling with so many pods it would make your skin crawl to see the big ones go running when pruning macro.

 

 

 

 

[Snow_Phoenix]

7 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

Here some pics of the tank and the fat ass beer belly mandys.

 

I had a 20g fuge full of cheato attached to this. 6 Mandy's and the place was crawling with so many pods it would make your skin crawl to see the big ones go running when pruning macro.

 

 

 

 

That Spotted's belly! 😮 

[stevejo]

Those are some healthy, happy looking Mandarins!  Thanks for sharing!

[Tamberav]

Np..it is amazing how much they will eat of the food is available.

 

This is the thread I will be trying to start a Mandy tank once again. I just picked it up recently. It is in it's infancy... haven't even scaped yet...still removing palythoas might try and get the nems off. 

 

 

[banasophia]

Hi there, as Snow mentioned I have a captive bred mandarin in my Biocube 16. I was thinking though that you may want to check out @hinnenkm‘s thread... I haven’t seen a recent update, but I know she had a really cool tank with seahorses, ruby reds, a pipefish, and a captive bred mandarin. 

 

 

[stevejo]

2 minutes ago, banasophia said:

Hi there, as Snow mentioned I have a captive bred mandarin in my Biocube 16. I was thinking though that you may want to check out @hinnenkm‘s thread... I haven’t seen a recent update, but I know she had a really cool tank with seahorses, ruby reds, a pipefish, and a captive bred mandarin. 

 

 

Thanks!

[Snow_Phoenix]

@metrokat is another person you might want to look into. Kat's older threads had a mandarin in it, if I'm not mistaken. And if I'm not mistaken again, she does have a red spotted scooter in her current red sea reefer. There was also a sticky somewhere about mandarins on the site - I think there were also details on how to train your dragonet. If I find it, I'll stick it up here so that you can look through it. It's worth a read. 

[Snow_Phoenix]

Here we go:

 

 

 

It's all listed under the fish sub-forum. I know the info is old, but most of the methods are still valid and are being used today by some reefers. 

[metrokat]

2 hours ago, Snow_Phoenix said:

@metrokat is another person you might want to look into. Kat's older threads had a mandarin in it, if I'm not mistaken. And if I'm not mistaken again, she does have a red spotted scooter in her current red sea reefer. There was also a sticky somewhere about mandarins on the site - I think there were also details on how to train your dragonet. If I find it, I'll stick it up here so that you can look through it. It's worth a read. 

Thanks Snow. I have a Red scooter and now also a Target Mandarin in my tank. They both eat prepared foods. I do throw in pods and live black worms as well but not with any frequency. I did not know if the scooter would eat prepared foods so he spent many months in a small fuge picking on pods till I hand fed mysis a few times and he gobbled it up. The Mandy was eating mysis at the store when I got her.

[Tamberav]

I thought it is worth noting that people seem to find best success when mandarins can have their natural diet of pods and not just frozen. Years back we had a thread dedicated to these guys but unfortunately some people were losing mandarins that appeared healthy after a few years of a frozen diet when these guys should have a pretty long life span.

 

I did find this on algaebarns website about tisbe pods..

 

Studies suggest that Tisbe biminiensis is a good source of proteases. These enzymes, which are produced in the copepod’s midgut region, break down proteins and peptides. But proteases also appear to support the digestive systems of the creatures that feed on the copepod. This digestive boost seems to be especially important to larval organisms that exploit copepods as a first food.

 

[stevejo]

3 hours ago, Tamberav said:

I thought it is worth noting that people seem to find best success when mandarins can have their natural diet of pods and not just frozen. Years back we had a thread dedicated to these guys but unfortunately some people were losing mandarins that appeared healthy after a few years of a frozen diet when these guys should have a pretty long life span.

 

I did find this on algaebarns website about tisbe pods..

 

Studies suggest that Tisbe biminiensis is a good source of proteases. These enzymes, which are produced in the copepod’s midgut region, break down proteins and peptides. But proteases also appear to support the digestive systems of the creatures that feed on the copepod. This digestive boost seems to be especially important to larval organisms that exploit copepods as a first food.

 

That's an interesting concept.  So like hot sauce, but for Mandarins... 😉 

 

The appeal of them (beyond the beauty) to me is the challenge, so it's off to read all the Mandarin threads on all the other forums, having consumed all available content here 🙂  Thanks again to all that replied for the insight, experiences, and knowledge.  I find that there is so much more of that here than anywhere else on the internets ❤️ 

[hinnenkm]

On 3/20/2019 at 1:58 AM, banasophia said:

Hi there, as Snow mentioned I have a captive bred mandarin in my Biocube 16. I was thinking though that you may want to check out @hinnenkm‘s thread... I haven’t seen a recent update, but I know she had a really cool tank with seahorses, ruby reds, a pipefish, and a captive bred mandarin. 

 

 

Thanks for the mention! I haven't been able to be active on here for a variety of reasons, so no thread updates. I would say though that of course any time you can replicate a natural diet, that is the best. Pods should definitely be supplemented and really aren't that hard to culture... As far as getting fish to eat frozen, one thing that has worked many times for me is hatching baby brine, mixing it with frozen food and then turning off pumps to feed. That way, there is live food and fish have a feeding response, while at the same time there is a high probability of them grabbing frozen while going for the brine. Good luck with everything!

[banasophia]

1 hour ago, hinnenkm said:

Thanks for the mention! I haven't been able to be active on here for a variety of reasons, so no thread updates. I would say though that of course any time you can replicate a natural diet, that is the best. Pods should definitely be supplemented and really aren't that hard to culture... As far as getting fish to eat frozen, one thing that has worked many times for me is hatching baby brine, mixing it with frozen food and then turning off pumps to feed. That way, there is live food and fish have a feeding response, while at the same time there is a high probability of them grabbing frozen while going for the brine. Good luck with everything!

Thanks for popping in to reply to the tag! 🤗 And I agree with both things - culturing pods and feeding live baby brine shrimp along with frozen. I’ve done both with my mandarin. I need to get my pod cultures back up and running; I had shut them down when they developed some weird looking algae, but it’s really ideal to be able to add pods weekly.