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Keeping nitrates down in a sumpless 36g tank


Kdsd731

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Can anyone help me figure out a plan to control my nitrates?  For a few months I had just a 12" skeletor eel, 3 purple condi and some snails and hermits. I fed the eel every other day a half a shrimp and the condi once a week.  My nitrates stayed around 5-10ppm with weekly 10% water changes using LFS saltwater (tests good). Over ther next few months I added 2 clowns, a flame angel and royal gramma. I feed very small portions 2-3 times a day. The food is gone within 30 seconds.  I lost one condi to the filter and while on vacation on New Years my smallest condi vanished.  I could not locate it even after looking through the rocks and sand.  Just gone.  After that happened, whether it's related or coincidence,  my nitrates have raised to a steady 40ppm. I have 2 HOB filters (one with a skimmer built in) and plenty of circulation.  I run the filter cartridges that come with the filter units and change them alternately every 3 weeks.  I also have a bag of total nitrate and a bag of sea chem purigen. My tank is clear and has very little algae growth. 

Water parameters:

pH 7.8

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 40

Salinity 1.025

Temp 78

I've tried doing 5 gallons daily for several days and never really saw the nitrates go down. Any changes to procedure that I should start to help get them back down? I can't do a sump at this time.

Screenshot_20190214-083003_Gallery.jpg

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What test kit are you using? Nitrates should not be sitting at 40 after consecutive water changes. Unless it's coming from your source water? 

1 hour ago, Kdsd731 said:

  I run the filter cartridges that come with the filter units and change them alternately every 3 weeks

Does this mean each one runs for six weeks?? I would change these more often if so

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11 minutes ago, Donny41 said:

What test kit are you using? Nitrates should not be sitting at 40 after consecutive water changes. Unless it's coming from your source water? 

Does this mean each one runs for six weeks?? I would change these more often if so

I use the API kit. No, 3 Weeks per cartridge.  So every 1.5 weeks I alternate sides. Their saltwater is RODI that they mix themselves and sell.  The water tests perfect when I check it. 

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Gourami Swami

I'm no reef expert by any means but have plenty of experience with big fish. 12" eel sounds like a lot of bioload to me for a tank under 40 gallons, plus 4 fish, feeding 2-3 times per day. Sounds like a recipe for nitrates to me. And it's possible the anemone is rotting somewhere if you cant find it.

A big ol water change will get them down if your sure your source water doesn't have the same problem. After that, keeping them down will be the challenge, may not be do-able with this many fish in the tank, unless you invest in some serious nitrate-export equipment.

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2 minutes ago, Gourami Swami said:

I'm no reef expert by any means but have plenty of experience with big fish. 12" eel sounds like a lot of bioload to me for a tank under 40 gallons, plus 4 fish, feeding 2-3 times per day. Sounds like a recipe for nitrates to me. And it's possible the anemone is rotting somewhere if you cant find it.

A big ol water change will get them down if your sure your source water doesn't have the same problem. After that, keeping them down will be the challenge, may not be do-able with this many fish in the tank, unless you invest in some serious nitrate-export equipment.

This⬆️

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45 minutes ago, Gourami Swami said:

 And it's possible the anemone is rotting somewhere if you cant find it.

This honestly is what I was almost thinking. The nitrates spiked within a week of the anenome disappearing. Maybe I just need to wait out the decomposition because I can't find it for the life of me. The feeding though frequent, equals roughly what I would feed in a single feeding to be honest. I was told it's more ideal to feed multiple small meals throughout the day versus one large meal.  And since I work from home it's easy to do. I do a pinch of frozen mysis in the morning, a small pinch of pellets mid day and a small amount of LRS food frenzy at night.

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Gourami Swami

Could probably rig an ATO with saltwater in the reservoir on a constant low flow, and have a gravity fed overflow leading to the sink. pump would have to be VERY slow. Maybe somebody else has some better ideas.


Tbh I think it's probably not a phantom anenome, and more the eel and other fish. If your nitrates were running 5-10 with just the eel, that seems like it was about the capacity of the tank, then with the addition of 4 more fish, and multiple feedings daily, you probably pushed it over. Also you mentioned that you tried several small water changes- these won't work, as they only take out a small percentage of the nitrate, and the tank is producing it at a much faster rate. 5 gallons of a 36 gallon system, lets say it's 25 gallons actual volume, is only going to drop the nitrates by 20%, so would put you at about 32ppm still. A large water change will drop the nitrates, for example if your at 40ppm, a 50% WC will have you at 20ppm briefly,  though you'll end up back where you started shortly, since the tank is still making nitrates faster than you can keep up with. 

 

Seems to me like you need to reduce stocking, up water changes drastically, or figure something out equipment wise that will allow your system to absorb the nitrates elsewhere, like maybe a refugium full of macro. 

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Theres a lot of causes for increased nitrates.

 

If larger waterchanges are not dropping, you have more nutrient going in than out.

 

Too high of a bioload ot livestock for the size of tank and filtration method. Feeding 3 times a day causes more waste not only from uneaten food but from poop.

 

Water source: has it been tested for tds levels or just nitrate?

 

Filtration methods: filter cartridges are really best used for freshwater. Changing them 1 time a month will aid in nutrient buildup.

It would be better to use floss changed 2 times a week, a good carbon you bag, and even purigen can help.

 

 

With waterchanges, do you vacuum the sand and use a Turkey baster on the rocks/ hard to reach areas? 

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8 hours ago, Kdsd731 said:

Can anyone help me figure out a plan to control my nitrates?  For a few months I had just a 12" skeletor eel, 3 purple condi and some snails and hermits. I fed the eel every other day a half a shrimp and the condi once a week.  My nitrates stayed around 5-10ppm with weekly 10% water changes using LFS saltwater (tests good). Over ther next few months I added 2 clowns, a flame angel and royal gramma. I feed very small portions 2-3 times a day. The food is gone within 30 seconds.  I lost one condi to the filter and while on vacation on New Years my smallest condi vanished.  I could not locate it even after looking through the rocks and sand.  Just gone.  After that happened, whether it's related or coincidence,  my nitrates have raised to a steady 40ppm. I have 2 HOB filters (one with a skimmer built in) and plenty of circulation.  I run the filter cartridges that come with the filter units and change them alternately every 3 weeks.  I also have a bag of total nitrate and a bag of sea chem purigen. My tank is clear and has very little algae growth. 

Water parameters:

pH 7.8

Ammonia 0

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 40

Salinity 1.025

Temp 78

I've tried doing 5 gallons daily for several days and never really saw the nitrates go down. Any changes to procedure that I should start to help get them back down? I can't do a sump at this time.

Screenshot_20190214-083003_Gallery.jpg

You have a Flame Angel in there.  I had one in my 36 gallon bowfront and it was cramped.  What kind of HOB filter do you have?  A larger Aquaclear or Seachem Tidal HOB that is modded a bit can be used essentially as an HOB refugium with Chaeto (Macroalgae that absorbs Nitrates and Phosphates).  

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16 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Theres a lot of causes for increased nitrates.

 

If larger waterchanges are not dropping, you have more nutrient going in than out.

 

Too high of a bioload ot livestock for the size of tank and filtration method. Feeding 3 times a day causes more waste not only from uneaten food but from poop.

 

Water source: has it been tested for tds levels or just nitrate?

 

Filtration methods: filter cartridges are really best used for freshwater. Changing them 1 time a month will aid in nutrient buildup.

It would be better to use floss changed 2 times a week, a good carbon you bag, and even purigen can help.

 

 

With waterchanges, do you vacuum the sand and use a Turkey baster on the rocks/ hard to reach areas? 

Sorry for the dumb question,  but what is TDS? Never tested for that. 

 

I will switch to filter floss  and run carbon and purigen. I had planned on doing that but just hadn't yet.  Do you replace the filter floss or just rinse it out? 

 

I never vacuumed the sand until this last week in an attempt to lower the nitrates.  I did stir it though.  I feel like in no time I'll be out of sand if I vacuumed weekly. Unless i'm doing it wrong.  I tried an electric handheld vacuum hoping I could do it multiple times a week without water loss but it was too strong and clogged with sand.  Then I did a siphon vacuum and still lost a decent amount of sand. Is there a better way of doing it? 

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12 hours ago, Jesterrace said:

What kind of HOB filter do you have?  A larger Aquaclear or Seachem Tidal HOB that is modded a bit can be used essentially as an HOB refugium with Chaeto (Macroalgae that absorbs Nitrates and Phosphates).  

Coralife 30g Marine Filter with Protein Skimmer &

Aqueon Queit Flow HOB.

 

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1 hour ago, Kdsd731 said:

Sorry for the dumb question,  but what is TDS? Never tested for that. 

 

I will switch to filter floss  and run carbon and purigen. I had planned on doing that but just hadn't yet.  Do you replace the filter floss or just rinse it out? 

 

I never vacuumed the sand until this last week in an attempt to lower the nitrates.  I did stir it though.  I feel like in no time I'll be out of sand if I vacuumed weekly. Unless i'm doing it wrong.  I tried an electric handheld vacuum hoping I could do it multiple times a week without water loss but it was too strong and clogged with sand.  Then I did a siphon vacuum and still lost a decent amount of sand. Is there a better way of doing it? 

Tds- total dissolved solids

 

Filter floss- is changed twice a week, no rinsing, that just harbors nutrients. You can buy floss in bulk, it's cheaper.

 

Carbon- buying a good quality carbon in a larger container saves money and allows you to change carbon more often

I use smaller quantities and change it every 3 weeks.

 

Purigen- if you choose to use it, get changed when it starts going brown.

 

Vaccuming- battery operated or pump operated gravel vacs won't allow you to control the vacuum so you will lose a lot of sand.

 

The trick is going buying a gravel vac that has a smaller hose diameter, the water flow is slower and sucks up less sand, on an angle, gently going up and down, when lots of sand goes in, put your finger on the end of the hose to stop the suction, which drops the sand back down.

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32 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

The trick is going buying a gravel vac that has a smaller hose diameter. 

Is there a particular one you can recommend?  I just bought one at Petco and returned it because the flow was too high. 

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Would it be smarter to maybe just use one of the hob's with the filter floss and the other without and just put my bags of charcoal etc. In the other? Or just keep filter floss in both and change them twice a week? 

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3 minutes ago, Kdsd731 said:

Would it be smarter to maybe just use one of the hob's with the filter floss and the other without and just put my bags of charcoal etc. In the other? Or just keep filter floss in both and change them twice a week? 

I prefer using floss in both of I had 2 filters. It catches all the particles which would then collect in the carbon bags which you don't want.

And any particles collected in the other filter will just go back into the water.

 

Carbon should be changed every 3 weeks and rinse the bags weekly in waterchange water to remove any detritus built on it.

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2 hours ago, Kdsd731 said:

Should I be cleaning the hob filter housing itself regularly or just changing filter floss twice a week enough? 

I personally would suck out any particles with a Turkey baster each week during waterchanges. Took only a few minutes. Every 2 months I cleaned the filter and pump completely

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  • 2 weeks later...

I cleaned my filter housings out on Monday and installed some filter floss. I did a 10g water change in Monday and Tuesday.  My nitrates are still at 40-50ish. I changed the filters today and will continue to change them twice a week. I will also continue to do weekly 30% water changes hoping to see my numbers approach the normal range in the next couple months.  Oh,  and I gave the flame angel to a friend.  I know it's not the biggest waste contributor I have but he's the largest fish in there and I won't give up the eel since my goal is a larger tank in a year or so.  Here's the condition of my filters after 3 days.  

20190228_074003.jpg

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Just out of curiosity,  can you effectively clean the filters by washing them and doing a bleach soak to use them over again when my current 6 week supply ends? Or just always use new? 

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2 minutes ago, Kdsd731 said:

Just out of curiosity,  can you effectively clean the filters by washing them and doing a bleach soak to use them over again when my current 6 week supply ends? Or just always use new? 

Always use new. The material isn't meant to be washed, it will break down.

 

Then you will also need to treat them again to remove all traces of bleach.

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