Battle of the ATOs

[Gourami Swami]

Hello Nano-reef

I am looking to get an ATO for my 6.8g mixed reef. It is a rimless AIO tank with no sump. Reservoir will be a 1-2 gallon container underneath the tank in the stand. I definitely want it to keep salinity stable, and I'm debating using kalk with it as well.

I have read all the recent threads on this topic, and for every ATO there seems to be some people who love it, and some who have it fail after a week. Is there really no ATO which is pretty much "foolproof"? I would hate to buy a piece of equipment to make maintenance a little bit easier, and then have it fail in the "on" position and dump a bunch of kalk into my tank, killing things.

 

The ATO's I've been looking at are:

1) Smart ATO Micro

https://www.amazon.com/Smart-ATO-Micro-Automatic-AutoAqua-x/dp/B0195D3LC6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1547738718&sr=8-1&keywords=ato

 

2) Hydor smart level controller

https://www.amazon.com/Hydor-Smart-Level-Controller-Automatic/dp/B00EVD944A/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1547738745&sr=8-3&keywords=ato

 

3) Tunze nano

https://www.amazon.com/Tunze-USA-3152-000-Automatic-Osmolator/dp/B00AR1A7ZU/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1547738769&sr=8-4&keywords=ato

 

4) IM Hydrofill 

https://www.amazon.com/Innovative-Marine-Hydro-Fill-Controller/dp/B016FLD2A2/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1547738789&sr=8-7&keywords=ato

 

(also would pair the pump with it https://www.amazon.com/Innovative-Marine-Hydro-Fill-System/dp/B016FLHA1Y/ref=pd_bxgy_199_img_2/141-6928152-8207167?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B016FLHA1Y&pd_rd_r=36376c1e-1a6d-11e9-8412-3d178c75a502&pd_rd_w=2D1PR&pd_rd_wg=Pe1tk&pf_rd_p=6725dbd6-9917-451d-beba-16af7874e407&pf_rd_r=3CF153FY22Y8GD6ZHCMM&psc=1&refRID=3CF153FY22Y8GD6ZHCMM)

 

Looking for opinions from people who have these ATO's. How long have they been running, have their failed, etc.

Also, I believe the smart ATO is the only one of these that comes with the pump, correct? Would a tom aqua lifter work for the rest of them pump-wise?

Thanks!

[shaner014]

I used the Smart in the past and loved it, using the XPAqua Duetto now and love it too. It has one extra optical sensor then the Smart does, for redundancy/safety sake.

 

The optical sensors on these ATOs will develop salt creep and calcium build-up over time. A quick shot of tank water with a turkey baster once a week keeps the creep away, and a periodic pull of the sensor for a wipe down with a small amount of vinegar will keep them working as new, in my experience. 

[Gourami Swami]

3 hours ago, shaner014 said:

I used the Smart in the past and loved it, using the XPAqua Duetto now and love it too. It has one extra optical sensor then the Smart does, for redundancy/safety sake.

 

The optical sensors on these ATOs will develop salt creep and calcium build-up over time. A quick shot of tank water with a turkey baster once a week keeps the creep away, and a periodic pull of the sensor for a wipe down with a small amount of vinegar will keep them working as new, in my experience. 

Had not considered that one but it looks great to be honest. Anybody else running a Duetto? Or prefer another ATO, and why?

[Donny41]

I have the duetto on my 40 breeder and I like it because it has a small sensor that fits under the rim. Have heard a few issues with smaller tanks though because of the minimum fill time the sensor uses often fills past the second optical sensor 

[FlytheWMark]

I have the Tunze Nano and I'm far from impressed with it.  Several issues with it not triggering properly (and when I removed the sensor it was clean as a whistle).  Its float based and I wish I had listened to some advice and paid a little bit more for optical. If I replace it I'll probably go with the Smart.  Would love to hear other's opinions...

[Gourami Swami]

33 minutes ago, Donny41 said:

I have the duetto on my 40 breeder and I like it because it has a small sensor that fits under the rim. Have heard a few issues with smaller tanks though because of the minimum fill time the sensor uses often fills past the second optical sensor 

Hmm, do you think if I gave myself a few centimeters of "grace room" above the top sensor, that this would be an issue still? 

7 minutes ago, Mark L. said:

I have the Tunze Nano and I'm far from impressed with it.  Several issues with it not triggering properly (and when I removed the sensor it was clean as a whistle).  Its float based and I wish I had listened to some advice and paid a little bit more for optical. If I replace it I'll probably go with the Smart.  Would love to hear other's opinions...

Thanks, definitely thing I'm going for an optical sensor model at this point

[Donny41]

27 minutes ago, Gourami Swami said:

Hmm, do you think if I gave myself a few centimeters of "grace room" above the top sensor, that this would be an issue still

the ATO does have a minimum run time.. if I recall correctly, I think it is about 3 seconds. It was designed this way so that the unit is not constantly turning on and off.  In smaller aquariums, this 3 second run time may cause the water level to reach above the top sensor. 

 

If the overfilling actually due to sensor failure, the QST programming alarm would sound. Or, the pump would continue to run and overfill the tank. However, having 2 sensors and the QST programming alarm, overfilling is extremely unlikely. We did design the Duetto with multiple layers of protection and everything is designed to fail in the off position to prevent overflows. 

 

Lastly, if there is a defect, we do stand behind our products and will be happy to warrant the product.

[Donny41]

@XP Aqua posted that in a thread I made about the duetto

[Superdave]

While not as "slick" as some of the above mentioned items, what I purchased from autotopoff.com has worked wonderfully for me!  

 

They have TONS of options and their customer service is great--owner/operator emails you directly to answer any questions.  For me in Dallas, fact they ship out of Austin is great, but central to rest of nation is win for most as well.  

 

The snail guard is what makes it bulky and it comes in plain white PVC color, but this could easily be painted another color or just really scuffed up to help facilitate coraline growth.  

 

With sensor, snail guard, switch, bracket and shipping it was a little under $50.  Has worked flawlessly since I added it in April of 2017.  They even have a deal right now for nano setup (which I believe is what I got) that ships for $40!  

 

I felt I was better off saving money on this item and apply it towards something like lighting.  

 

 

[Daveg99]

I've been using an avast auto top off for years.   It's a pressure switch that cant be accidentally set off by snails 

[PicoSavvy]

Anyone else used a pressure based ato? I used a spectraPure ato before but refill levels sometimes fluctuated 

[jservedio]

40 minutes ago, PicoSavvy said:

Anyone else used a pressure based ato? I used a spectraPure ato before but refill levels sometimes fluctuated 

I also use the Avast and have been using it for 8 years without serious issue. I also run kalk through it.

 

It's not extremely sensitive, but it's bomb proof. It takes about an inch of movement to trigger it. Not a problem at all with a small return chamber. Rated for 1,000,000 cycles, so going on/off quickly isn't an issue.

[PicoSavvy]

Yeap that sound about right for my spectraPure  it would fluctuate between 1/2 inch to an 1 inch before it would get trigger. That would be ok in a bigger system but in a pico it worried me to much. I think sensitivity wise optical sensor win but i worry about salt or algae build up on them. I remember reading somewhere about sensitive float switch needing only 1/4 inch of movement to be trigger.

[mcarroll]

Reed-type floats are best IMO...used in all manner of industrial process controls.  <1/4" of fluctuation to trigger one.

 

@Gourami Swami Hopefully you ended up with the Nano Osmolator combined with a Tunze 5074 kalkwasser dispenser.  Does require attention to proper setup (read directions before putting it together) but after that it's foolproof.   Keep in mind that you should have an high-range EC meter if you're going to run kalkwasser....only way to really tell for sure whether it's getting fully charged and when it needs a new recharge.

[jservedio]

6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Hopefully you ended up with the Nano Osmolator combined with a Tunze 5074 kalkwasser dispenser.  Does require attention to proper setup (read directions before putting it together) but after that it's foolproof.   Keep in mind that you should have an high-range EC meter if you're going to run kalkwasser....only way to really tell for sure whether it's getting fully charged and when it needs a new recharge.

You don't need a $100 reactor and a $100-$200 EC meter for dosing reasonable levels of Kalk through an ATO. All you need is a 5g bucket (or any straight-sided container) with a lid and a 2" long piece of scrap PVC to make a standoff so you aren't sucking up slurry.

 

As long as you are dosing roughly 1 dkh/day or less and don't have absurdly high alkalinity to begin with (like if you are in the 7-9dkh range) just mix your kalk directly into your ATO container to the desired saturation level for your needs, put a lid on it, and don't touch it until it's empty. To get the saturation level that you need, all you need to know are some basics about your tank and some math (and there is even a calculator so you don't have to do the math yourself: https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/KalkContribution.php). Any more than a dkh/day you are going to start having other considerations and issues to deal with, but that's not relevant to the vast majority of kalk users.

 

All you need is your rough system volume, how much ATO water you use daily, and your alkalinity consumption. For example, my system uses 0.9 dkh/day, I have very close to a 20g of total system volume, and I use 1/3g of ATO water per day during the spring and summer here in NC - this means I need a saturation level of roughly 45%. In my 5g homer bucket, that's 5 teaspoons of Kalk and it'll last for 15 days. In the late fall and winter when the humidity drops a little, it lasts about 13 days so I adjust accordingly.

 

To verify, you just test your alkalinity to make sure it stays stable as you normally would - if anything it's going to be slightly low because you didn't reach your desired saturation level. Just add a little more next time and keep your process exactly the same. In my case, I have to add 2 tablespoons to my 5g of water to achieve my desired 45% saturation. I, and many others, have been doing this for years and years on end without having any issues whatsoever and you are never getting any slurry in your tank or the ATO line/pump to cause possible issues.

 

IMO if you are dosing kalk at high enough levels where you need a reactor to maintain saturation or are dosing slurry and dealing with those issues, plain kalk is the wrong solution for your tank and you should be considering supplementing with or switching to 2-part or adding in vinegar or citric acid for calcium acetate or calcium citrate. But, that is a far more advanced topic than basic kalk dosing.

[chlorinated]

I was using the JBJ ATO with Aqualifter pump. Slow flow so perfect for a nano. Had it stop on my IM 8gallon before I upgraded. Ran flawlessly and never had any issues.

 

I know many dont like float switches, but a quick 2 min clean once a month and zero issues ever.

[mcarroll]

On 6/3/2020 at 10:31 AM, jservedio said:

All you need is a 5g bucket (or any straight-sided container) with a lid and a 2" long piece of scrap PVC to make a standoff so you aren't sucking up slurry.

 

As long as you are dosing roughly 1 dkh/day or less and don't have absurdly high alkalinity to begin with (like if you are in the 7-9dkh range) just mix your kalk directly into your ATO container to the desired saturation level for your needs, put a lid on it, and don't touch it until it's empty. To get the saturation level that you need, all you need to know are some basics about your tank and some math (and there is even a calculator so you don't have to do the math yourself: https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/KalkContribution.php). Any more than a dkh/day you are going to start having other considerations and issues to deal with, but that's not relevant to the vast majority of kalk users.

 

All you need is your rough system volume, how much ATO water you use daily, and your alkalinity consumption. For example, my system uses 0.9 dkh/day, I have very close to a 20g of total system volume, and I use 1/3g of ATO water per day during the spring and summer here in NC - this means I need a saturation level of roughly 45%. In my 5g homer bucket, that's 5 teaspoons of Kalk and it'll last for 15 days. In the late fall and winter when the humidity drops a little, it lasts about 13 days so I adjust accordingly.

 

To verify, you just test your alkalinity to make sure it stays stable as you normally would - if anything it's going to be slightly low because you didn't reach your desired saturation level. Just add a little more next time and keep your process exactly the same. In my case, I have to add 2 tablespoons to my 5g of water to achieve my desired 45% saturation. I, and many others, have been doing this for years and years on end without having any issues whatsoever and you are never getting any slurry in your tank or the ATO line/pump to cause possible issues.

 

IMO if you are dosing kalk at high enough levels where you need a reactor to maintain saturation or are dosing slurry and dealing with those issues, plain kalk is the wrong solution for your tank and you should be considering supplementing with or switching to 2-part or adding in vinegar or citric acid for calcium acetate or calcium citrate. But, that is a far more advanced topic than basic kalk dosing.

👀 Easy to say when you can recite all that nuance off the top of your head!   😉👏

 

IMO, however, most folks should use a meter....especially when they're new at kalk and unfamiliar with the many significant intricacies of using kalk successfully.  Going off track with kalk isn't like going off track with 2-part where it's just a learning experience and you undo your mistake and go on.....going off track with kalk can easily be a tank-ender.

 

Most of those intricacies (including usage of an EC meter) are nicely covered by Randy Holmes-Farley in his article What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime.  

 

Also check out The Degradation of Limewater In Air by the same author.

 

For what it's worth, the Tunze reactor is mostly just an improvement of the so-called "still reservoir" method described in the first article.  

 

The reactor allows usage of a normal hobby pump vs needing something like Champion Lighting's old Reefiller diaphragm pump (see right) or a peristaltic pump.  It also keeps the kalk totally isolated from any further exposure to air and the resulting precipitation of your kalkwasser into chalk...hypothetically even better than the still reservoir by itself.  (Still reservoir can be great and I've never seen anyone test them head to head, so can't say for sure.)   

 

The reactor + EC meter combo that I mentioned is a good way to dose kalk in a foolproof manner...especially (as already mentioned) when you're someone who is new at kalk and you are just starting out.   

 

On 6/3/2020 at 10:31 AM, jservedio said:

You don't need a $100 reactor and a $100-$200 EC meter for dosing reasonable levels of Kalk through an ATO.

BTW, a Tunze 5074 is only $95 these days and a Hanna DiST 4 EC meter is about $50.  

 

$150 for a foolproof kalk setup is not the end of the world in terms of reefing costs...not for goods that will last as long as you are in the hobby.

 

One thing to consider is that there are no recurring costs in the setup, where most cheap-up-front kalk setups quickly burn through power heads.  One or two powerhead replacements, depending on your powerhead of choice, can totally pay for this improved setup.  (Even considering your experience, don't you have to admit that kalk is legendary for chewing through pumps when used in a "traditional" setup?  Many, many threads...the reason for the invention of the Nilsen reactor.)

 

And at least to my ears, a foolproof kalk setup is exactly what GouramiSwami requested in the first post:

On 1/17/2019 at 10:28 AM, Gourami Swami said:

kalk [....] "foolproof"

With only a little ingenuity you could DIY a reactor like the 5074 and save money if that $95 was a real bind.  

 

Costs for a reactor can be what you want them to be in that case...and $50 for the tester is extremely reasonable if you ask me.  No different than getting a Hanna Checker for your alk or phosphates.

 

On 6/3/2020 at 10:31 AM, jservedio said:

kalk is the wrong solution for your tank

Whether dosing kalk is the best way to go in a given situation is a whole other (and very worthy) question.  You are correct in this concern, though I can imagine someone still choosing to use kalk in a high-demand situation.  👍

 

The articles I linked earlier do a good job on this front, but I'd also recommend this classic:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: How To Select A Calcium And Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme

 

On 6/3/2020 at 10:31 AM, jservedio said:

But

There's always a but!  😄

 

As for whether my recommendation is "the best"...consider this.

 

I have a 5074 reactor and a DiST 4 meter.  (Purchased when both cost considerably more than they do today, for what it's worth....something like double!)

 

But I do not run kalk presently and I haven't in a while.  

 

Last time I ran kalkwasser, it was by using the 5074 with kalk powder in the reactor (as usual) but with vinegar in the ATO water in proportion from Breefcase's recipe from reefs.org as posted on reefscapes.net: http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefcase/kalkwasser.html  It was a very-high-demand situation.

 

It's all pretty simple....but only AFTER you have it all figured out.  😉

 

Coming at kalk knowing zippo as a newbie, it looks like a friggin' mess of complication and worry coupled to a likely helping of disaster.  

 

That's why I recommend the setup I recommend to anyone starting out with kalk.  The guessing and mystery is largely factored out.

 

But that complication, etc is also why I don't recommend kalk to anyone who didn't ask about it specifically.  

 

"Two part" is (aside from the naming) very uncomplicated by comparison.  Easier than feeding your fish IMO. 👍

 

"Your mileage may vary."

 

* Most kalk setups like you describe chew through pumps because the pump sits in the kalkwasser directly, which can be murder on the impeller and motor...not just because of the slurry usually present, although that can be part of it.

 

Other Links:

https://www.hannainst.com/hi98304-dist-4-ec-tester.html

https://www.tunze.com/en/details/5074.000-calcium-dispenser.html

[jservedio]

8 hours ago, mcarroll said:

👀 Easy to say when you can recite all that nuance off the top of your head!   😉👏

That's is fair enough, however, it definitely isn't rocket science and to also be fair, I am absolutely abysmal at chemistry! I barely passed high-school chemistry.

Quote

Also check out The Degradation of Limewater In Air by the same author.

This was a big concern for me for a long time and I used to run a DIY version of the Tunze reactor (btw a 64oz gatorade bottle and some airline fittings get the job done). However, this is a bit overblown and exactly why I said you can't touch your ATO once you mix the Kalk in (plus a lid) - it will form a skin on top and stop degrading or at least slow to a crawl. Once that skin forms in half a day or so, the alkalinity of the solution stops going down, at least over the course of the 2 weeks mine lasts. If you ran a stirrer or pump to keep it mixed for some insane reason, it'd degrade quickly. This is the reason I run an extra teaspoon of Kalk to get the saturation I need - besides settling out, some of the kalk is going to forming that skin.

 

Quote

Whether dosing kalk is the best way to go in a given situation is a whole other (and very worthy) question.  You are correct in this concern, though I can imagine someone still choosing to use kalk in a high-demand situation.  👍

 

Even when dosing 2-part, I still run about 0.75 dkh/day of kalk through the ATO just because it provides a simple, foolproof source of alkalinity and calcium while boosting my pH nicely in a lower alkalinity system. Plus, it's a near-continuous low concentration infusion as opposed to 2-part where it can only be broken into so many tiny doses in our nano tanks without heavily diluting it (plus the smaller the dose, especially those 1ml doses, the more inaccurate it'll be). l I think it has it's place even for those who run 2-part, especially if they don't run a skimmer, have a new tightly sealed house, and/or don't run a sump/have an AIO.

 

8 hours ago, mcarroll said:

* Most kalk setups like you describe chew through pumps because the pump sits in the kalkwasser directly, which can be murder on the impeller and motor...not just because of the slurry usually present, although that can be part of it.

As much as people hate on diaphragm pumps (and I hate them for a variety of reasons, too), I've been using the same crusty Tom's Aqualifter on my ATO w/ Kalk for about 8 years now and I've only had to replace the internal valve system (like $12) one time. Once it starts working more slowly, just flush it out with RODI and call it a day for the next couple of years. They work flawlessly for this one purpose even if they are terrible for everything else.

 

I will say the Tunze reactor is a little more appealing now with the availability of the Hanna EC meter. However, I still like the simplicity of no reactor and mixing to the desired concentration.