Palytoxin- how scared should I be of it?

[LogicalReefs]

So I have 2 frags of zoas that I’m starting to sort of regret getting if only for the reason of palytoxin. I know this can be some very dangerous toxin even leading to death in rare cases. I understand the common sense safety precautions when handling by using gloves, eye protection when propagating and never touch when you have cuts on your hands. 

 

Is there a need to be extremely careful with zoas like I would assume a life or death scenario? Am I over thinking it? How do you guys feel about zoas and palys? Do you think it’s worth the risk?

[WV Reefer]

1 minute ago, LogicalReefs said:

So I have 2 frags of zoas that I’m starting to sort of regret getting if only for the reason of palytoxin. I know this can be some very dangerous toxin even leading to death in rare cases. I understand the common sense safety precautions when handling by using gloves, eye protection when propagating and never touch when you have cuts on your hands. 

 

Is there a need to be extremely careful with zoas like I would assume a life or death scenario? Am I over thinking it? How do you guys feel about zoas and palys? Do you think it’s worth the risk?

Just be careful and you’ll be fine. If they were killing everyone no one would keep them. 🙂

[Tamberav]

Palytoxin is overhyped, don't eat them or squirt them in your eye or boil them on the stove and you'll be fine. The cleaning products in our house are more dangerous tbh....

[WV Reefer]

Just now, Tamberav said:

Palytoxin is overhyped, don't eat them or squirt them in your eye or boil them on the stove and you'll be fine. 

That made me lol for some reason. 😄

[banasophia]

This article came out in Coral magazine this past March, just as I was starting my tank. I held off on stocking any zoas for the first 6 months or so, but now I that I’m more comfortable with my tank I keep zoas and enjoy them. 

 

https://www.reef2rainforest.com/palytoxin-in-the-marine-aquarium/

[RayWhisperer]

10 hours ago, Tamberav said:

Palytoxin is overhyped, don't eat them or squirt them in your eye or boil them on the stove and you'll be fine. The cleaning products in our house are more dangerous tbh....

Truth. I've kept lots of zoas and palys, and dont generally use any protective measures. Stupid, maybe, but I've never exhibited symptoms of palytoxin poisoning. Plus, most accounts I've read about assumed palytoxin poisoning without any clinical, or scientific proof. Someone gets sick, they remember doing something in the tank, a light blinks on in their panicked brain. "IVE BEEN EXPOSED TO THE PALYTOXIN!" The story circulates around the interwebz, and suddenly it's TRUE. I'll bet it's been close to 10 years since I've read about a confirmed case of palytoxin.

[LogicalReefs]

So I’m probably going to keep my zoas then. I just wanted to get some reassurance about keeping zoas. But absolutely I will be wearing gloves and eye protection with a breathing filter if I ever decide to propogate them.

 

Thanks for the article @banasophia  I like that I can run carbon in my tank to clear most of the palytoxin in the tank water like the article states if it ever comes to that. The article was really helpful! Thanks!

[Coinee]

39 minutes ago, RayWhisperer said:

Truth. I've kept lots of zoas and palys, and dont generally use any protective measures. Stupid, maybe, but I've never exhibited symptoms of palytoxin poisoning. Plus, most accounts I've read about assumed palytoxin poisoning without any clinical, or scientific proof. Someone gets sick, they remember doing something in the tank, a light blinks on in their panicked brain. "IVE BEEN EXPOSED TO THE PALYTOXIN!" The story circulates around the interwebz, and suddenly it's TRUE. I'll bet it's been close to 10 years since I've read about a confirmed case of palytoxin.

Yes, most of the common reports people have is working in their tank with bare hands then having irritated skin or itchy hands, then shortness of breath follows then illness. To me this seems like people who are sensitive to salt water or some of the stinging or other toxins released by corals reacting to that, followed by their own anxiety which makes them worse. We don't know anything about the medical history or the previous states of these people at all. It's very unscientific to believe it's the toxin immediately. Palytoxin is not something that only some can react to also, it is very toxic to humans. 

 

The reality is that corals release all kinds of toxins aside from the palytoxin that zoanthids apparently have, and we don't actively know enough about those or their effects. Palytoxin in very dangerous and IMO you would be actually dead if you actually felt any symptoms; it is extremely toxic and the mechanism through how it reacts doesn't seem congruent with the majority of peoples anecdotal reports of palytoxin poisoning. I would need scientific confirmation of this rather than everyone hysterically declaring palytoxin is the cause. 

 

The only concern I think people should have is that some corals, like these, are capable of producing irritants which they can squirt at times, so that mandates a little more care. Never stare directly at the coral and take a bit of precaution, then you'll be fine. Some people wear gloves, and eye and mouth protection. 

[RayWhisperer]

7 minutes ago, Coinee said:

Yes, most of the common reports people have is working in their tank with bare hands then having irritated skin or itchy hands, then shortness of breath follows then illness. To me this seems like people who are sensitive to salt water or some of the stinging or other toxins released by corals reacting to that, followed by their own anxiety which makes them worse. We don't know anything about the medical history or the previous states of these people at all. It's very unscientific to believe it's the toxin immediately. Palytoxin is not something that only some can react to also, it is very toxic to humans. 

 

The reality is that corals release all kinds of toxins aside from the palytoxin that zoanthids apparently have, and we don't actively know enough about those or their effects. Palytoxin in very dangerous and IMO you would be actually dead if you actually felt any symptoms; it is extremely toxic and the mechanism through how it reacts doesn't seem congruent with the majority of peoples anecdotal reports of palytoxin poisoning. I would need scientific confirmation of this rather than everyone hysterically declaring palytoxin is the cause. 

 

The only concern I think people should have is that some corals, like these, are capable of producing irritants which they can squirt at times, so that mandates a little more care. Never stare directly at the coral and take a bit of precaution, then you'll be fine. Some people wear gloves, and eye and mouth protection. 

Not to mention all the bacteria, microbes, fungus', and other nasties that live in saltwater, live rock and sand. Any one of these could give a severe reaction to exposure to someone sensitive, or not. 

 

Pretty much every time I read an article, or post claiming palytoxin, I dismiss it. Without any definitive evidence, I'm calling bunk on all of them. 

[Clown79]

Just take caution and you should be fine.

 

Does it exist and is there incidences that occur- yup. Should it be ignored- no.

 

Being aware and taking proper precaution is the way to go. It's like walking across the street, it can be dangerous if you don't look both ways.

 

There are alot of things in a reef tank that can cause issues- bacteria alone can be dangerous.

 

Being careful and taking proper steps like wearing gloves, or eyewear when fragging, not boiling, scrubbing, ripping, eating can prevent issues.

 

Palytoxin is not just found in zoas and paly's. 

 

 

[MrObscura]

[Coinee]

3 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Just take caution and you should be fine.

 

Does it exist and is there incidences that occur- yup. Should it be ignored- no.

 

Being aware and taking proper precaution is the way to go. It's like walking across the street, it can be dangerous if you don't look both ways.

 

There are alot of things in a reef tank that can cause issues- bacteria alone can be dangerous.

 

Being careful and taking proper steps like wearing gloves, or eyewear when fragging, not boiling, scrubbing, ripping, eating can prevent issues.

 

Palytoxin is not just found in zoas and paly's. 

 

 

If people buy coral to eat them, they have bigger issues than just palytoxin to worry about LOL

[Clown79]

2 minutes ago, Coinee said:

If people buy coral to eat them, they have bigger issues than just palytoxin to worry about LOL

Lol. I know. 

I think it's funny that we have to put that on the list of precautions but you never know. 

[Coinee]

A question I have to pose is:

 

Why is it always people in homes that report these issues with zoas? Why don't LFS report these issues in their stores? They're more likely to be manipulating, fragging, etc the zoas more often than any hobbyist. The chances of them making a mistake is probably more likely just based on the frequency of this. Hell, if people get sick by breathing in the "palytoxin", why haven't we seen stores reporting their staff and dozens of customers being rushed to the hospital in respiratory distress or anything?

 

I mean if we ship zoas, then frag them or frag them then ship them, shouldn't LFS be getting a face full of palytoxin when they open their shipments? 

 

Something is off about this. 

 

 

[Rob22]

1 hour ago, Coinee said:

A question I have to pose is:

 

Why is it always people in homes that report these issues with zoas? Why don't LFS report these issues in their stores? They're more likely to be manipulating, fragging, etc the zoas more often than any hobbyist. The chances of them making a mistake is probably more likely just based on the frequency of this. Hell, if people get sick by breathing in the "palytoxin", why haven't we seen stores reporting their staff and dozens of customers being rushed to the hospital in respiratory distress or anything?

 

I mean if we ship zoas, then frag them or frag them then ship them, shouldn't LFS be getting a face full of palytoxin when they open their shipments? 

 

Something is off about this. 

 

 

People buy plays and zoas without knowing they’re toxic. When was the last time you bought some and a store told you they could be toxic. Not all even have enough toxin to hurt you. 

 

Every store I have been in when I have seen they’re fragging equipment has gloves and eye protection or face masks. You don’t have coral band saws and take the chance of any rock bits getting in your eyes. Plus people at the store know about what can hurt them. They take standard precautions. If they don’t, the store owners are insane to let their employees handle cut toxic things without protection. 

 

As far as breathing it in, the toxin doesn’t aerosolize and travel out of the water to attack people. The aerosolization of the toxin occurs when people literally boil their rock. It is a common thing to do in freshwater but a huge mistake in saltwater. I have never heard of an aquarium store with a big pot boiling their live rock shipments so you wouldn’t get dozens of people being pulled from a lfs with palytoxin poisoning. 

 

Long story short, people have been keeping zoas and palys for years not knowing they were toxic, if the ones they have even are as not all are. I have zoas for years before I knew they may be able to harm me. Just use precautions if you are fragging them and if you want to be extra cautious, run carbon on the tank which has many benefits. One of those would be the absorption of palytoxin and other chemical warfare going on in your tank. Look up allelopathy in corals and you see that carbon can help with that as well. 

[banasophia]

1 hour ago, Coinee said:

A question I have to pose is:

 

Why is it always people in homes that report these issues with zoas? Why don't LFS report these issues in their stores? They're more likely to be manipulating, fragging, etc the zoas more often than any hobbyist. The chances of them making a mistake is probably more likely just based on the frequency of this. Hell, if people get sick by breathing in the "palytoxin", why haven't we seen stores reporting their staff and dozens of customers being rushed to the hospital in respiratory distress or anything?

 

I mean if we ship zoas, then frag them or frag them then ship them, shouldn't LFS be getting a face full of palytoxin when they open their shipments? 

 

Something is off about this. 

 

 

The owner of my LFS has had an exposure and said he only frags his zoas and palys at the end of the day, after the customers are gone. 

[MrObscura]

Every incident of a major reaction I've heard about, which is like 2, was a result of the toxin going airborne because someone boiled some rock with zoas/palys on them. 

[Andreww]

I believe the amount of zoas/palys you have in the tank matters as well.

Cant expect one or two or ten polyps to affect you like 500 of them can.

 

I work in a field where we handle lots of solvent based products. A little sniff can make you feel just right, if you know what I mean lol, but a concentrated airborne dose and you’re likely to land in the hospital.

 

Sanjay Joshi mentioned a case of paly poisoning with a big rock full of them in his tank. Taking it out of the tank and probably mishandling it by pressing or crushing some polyps gave them flu like symptoms.

 

I remember when I started my tank and had some basic green zoas. We had guests over one day and their kids were annoying me a bit by putting their hands in the tank right after they ate...😡. When I saw the parents don’t say anything , I told them to be careful cuz the zoas have a very nasty toxin that in rare cases make you sick or even kills.

You know how quickly the dad told them to get outta there? Lol

 

[jservedio]

On 1/17/2019 at 9:54 AM, LogicalReefs said:

But absolutely I will be wearing gloves and eye protection with a breathing filter if I ever decide to propogate them.

The idea of someone dressed up like you are about to perform an autopsy to frag some zoos is pretty hilarious.

 

Just wash your hands after handling them and you will be fine. As long as you aren't mashing them and rubbing them in an open cut or touching your eyes, mouth, or nose you will be fine.

 

There have been less than a handful of real poisonings and almost all were all from breathing an aerosol from boiling them.

[LogicalReefs]

14 minutes ago, jservedio said:

The idea of someone dressed up like you are about to perform an autopsy to frag some zoos is pretty hilarious.

 

Just wash your hands after handling them and you will be fine. As long as you aren't mashing them and rubbing them in an open cut or touching your eyes, mouth, or nose you will be fine.

 

There have been less than a handful of real poisonings and almost all were all from breathing an aerosol from boiling them.

Lol I’ll be alive though looking crazy in a hazmat suit haha

[Coinee]

Don't forget to shower your suit outside to remove all the palytoxin after fragging...this part is often neglected.

[mcarroll]

On 1/16/2019 at 10:59 PM, WV Reefer said:

That made me lol for some reason. 😄

It would be totally funny if we didn't read about folks doing those things so often.  Boiling live rock!    I swear you can't take folks anywhere.  😉