Tragedy

[FISHnChix]

2 hours ago, Tamberav said:

 

Flucanozole will kill it off for ya real quick (days) in my experience. A fuge will likely not out-compete it. It used to be a fairly difficult algae to ever get rid of before flucanozole showed up. I would honestly just nuke it and add a fuge after so this pest algae doesn't out compete your fuge. 

Yep fluc worked for me too! Worked like a charm a d had no side effects on my biocube. Now I only had lps and some shrooms though.. would highly recommend this too.. 

[Clown79]

Peroxide treatment is generally safe but some sensitive livestock and coral can react poorly to it.

 

Fluconazole has definitely had positive reports, lots of positive outcomes.

 

Vibrant is the one product that a lot of users end up with cyano after treatment

[mcarroll]

It's not exactly a good time, but I'd recommend anyone interested in either of those miracle cures look up some of the larger threads on it vs going off the experience of <10 people or an anecdote from any one person. 

 

r2r has some biggies...several thousand posts each.  With a view like that the risks and side-effects that a few people might be lucky to avoid are apparent.

 

Neither is the miracle cure it's cracked up to be -- I hope nobody mistakes either treatment for being risk-free.  The idea of a risk-free cure is pure marketing. 

 

So know and understand the risks, don't be in denial that risks exist.   

 

If at all possible, it's better to put in the work to solve problems the right way.

 

Good to remember:

The folks who popularized these treatments...

 

...had tanks that were BADLY overrun with algae -- to the point of no return, at least in their perception. Usually 100% algae cover.

 

...were about to hit the nuke button and restart the tank anyway so they didn't care about risk. 

 

...in their eyes all was already lost and risk was irrelevant.

 

If you're in that boat ("all is lost") then it may be worth the risk....but for a little puff of algae on a rock such as in this thread, it seems unwise to say the least.

17 hours ago, Mros said:



 

[FISHnChix]

56 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

It's not exactly a good time, but I'd recommend anyone interested in either of those miracle cures look up some of the larger threads on it vs going off the experience of <10 people or an anecdote from any one person. 

 

r2r has some biggies...several thousand posts each.  With a view like that the risks and side-effects that a few people might be lucky to avoid are apparent.

 

Neither is the miracle cure it's cracked up to be -- I hope nobody mistakes either treatment for being risk-free.  The idea of a risk-free cure is pure marketing. 

 

So know and understand the risks, don't be in denial that risks exist.   

 

If at all possible, it's better to put in the work to solve problems the right way.

 

Good to remember:

The folks who popularized these treatments...

 

...had tanks that were BADLY overrun with algae -- to the point of no return, at least in their perception. Usually 100% algae cover.

 

...were about to hit the nuke button and restart the tank anyway so they didn't care about risk. 

 

...in their eyes all was already lost and risk was irrelevant.

 

If you're in that boat ("all is lost") then it may be worth the risk....but for a little puff of algae on a rock such as in this thread, it seems unwise to say the least.

 

Lol your funny . Acting like the majority of people who have used this treatment have had tons of horrible side effects.. I will link the thread you referred too. Making an educated decision to treat your tank is always important ! Imo your not going to get rid of this alage by manually removing it. Probably will just make it spread..imo the risk is probably minimal to the op tank bc his tank isnt completely crammed with coral yet.. 

 

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bryopsis-cure-my-battle-with-bryopsis-using-fluconazole.285096/

[mcarroll]

16 minutes ago, Weikel said:

Acting like the majority of people who have used this treatment have had tons of horrible side effects.

Funny: sometimes. 

 

Acting?    Never tried but I'm sure I'd be no good at acting whatsoever.

 

Majority and tons are your words....don't "act" like I said 'em!  

 

I said:

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Neither is the miracle cure it's cracked up to be -- I hope nobody mistakes either treatment for being risk-free.

If you intended to disagree, are you claiming these treatments are risk-free?

 

 

[FISHnChix]

10 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

If you intended to disagree, are you claiming these treatments are risk-free?

 

Oh course not .everything you do in this hobby has risks.  It's up to the hobbyist to see if the risks out weigh the rewards. However I haven't seen really any negative side effects that seem directly related to the treatment. Meaning I didnt see anything negative reported that happened over and over that seemed to suggest it was a side effect of the treatment.. dunno maybe I missed it?? Dont have the time to type out all of steps of treatment and there is already tons of information out there on it.  One of the things that I think can be hard for reefers is letting their tank go on autopilot for the treatment period.  Like if you have good coral growth and are consuming ca and alk and maintain those levels via weekly water changes , well your reef will suffer just due to params dropping over the month treatment.  Same goes if you cant keep your nitrates down without a w.c. over the course of the month too.

[Tamberav]

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

It's not exactly a good time, but I'd recommend anyone interested in either of those miracle cures look up some of the larger threads on it vs going off the experience of <10 people or an anecdote from any one person. 

 

r2r has some biggies...several thousand posts each.  With a view like that the risks and side-effects that a few people might be lucky to avoid are apparent.

 

Neither is the miracle cure it's cracked up to be -- I hope nobody mistakes either treatment for being risk-free.  The idea of a risk-free cure is pure marketing. 

 

So know and understand the risks, don't be in denial that risks exist.   

 

If at all possible, it's better to put in the work to solve problems the right way.

 

Good to remember:

The folks who popularized these treatments...

 

...had tanks that were BADLY overrun with algae -- to the point of no return, at least in their perception. Usually 100% algae cover.

 

...were about to hit the nuke button and restart the tank anyway so they didn't care about risk. 

 

...in their eyes all was already lost and risk was irrelevant.

 

If you're in that boat ("all is lost") then it may be worth the risk....but for a little puff of algae on a rock such as in this thread, it seems unwise to say the least.

 

 

I don't fall under any of this.

 

I had two spots. I tried peroxide but it would die off then come back and the SPS near by started to bleach. 

 

It is possible to have issues with any method, peroxide or otherwise but I would suspect overdose or a tank so overrun by different pest algaes that it was the resulting die off of algae that caused issues and not the product. 

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

25 minutes ago, Weikel said:

Oh course not .everything you do in this hobby has risks.  It's up to the hobbyist to see if the risks out weigh the rewards. However I haven't seen really any negative side effects that seem directly related to the treatment. Meaning I didnt see anything negative reported that happened over and over that seemed to suggest it was a side effect of the treatment.. dunno maybe I missed it?? Dont have the time to type out all of steps of treatment and there is already tons of information out there on it.  One of the things that I think can be hard for reefers is letting their tank go on autopilot for the treatment period

That's basically what I was saying too.

 

I doubt you missed anything.....based on what you're telling me I'd say you were one of the lucky ones and it just worked out OK.  That definitely happens!  :P 

 

The problem is that when someone reads online "it worked my algae is gone" they simply ask where to order and repeat the treatment they saw. 

 

The number of people that would skip ALL the instructions on that r2r thread (where that info was located) and ask in the thread where to order and how to do it was....interesting.   In doing so, they'd miss any caveats, tips, warnings, etc.

 

Things touted as miracle cures to folks that feel desperate about their situation tend to go this way...

 

26 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

I would suspect overdose or a tank so overrun by different pest algaes that it was the resulting die off of algae that caused issues and not the product. 

Very possible, but still falls under the category of risks one should be aware of....and affirms that this is not the risk-free miracle it's often considered.

 

I'm sure anyone here would be surprised and ticked off if it happened to them.

 

And I bet they'd be ticked off all over again if they found out later that it was a known issues they just didn't read about.

 

(Glad yours worked out though!)

[Tamberav]

46 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

That's basically what I was saying too.

 

I doubt you missed anything.....based on what you're telling me I'd say you were one of the lucky ones and it just worked out OK.  That definitely happens!  😛

 

The problem is that when someone reads online "it worked my algae is gone" they simply ask where to order and repeat the treatment they saw. 

 

The number of people that would skip ALL the instructions on that r2r thread (where that info was located) and ask in the thread where to order and how to do it was....interesting.   In doing so, they'd miss any caveats, tips, warnings, etc.

 

Things touted as miracle cures to folks that feel desperate about their situation tend to go this way...

 

Very possible, but still falls under the category of risks one should be aware of....and affirms that this is not the risk-free miracle it's often considered.

 

I'm sure anyone here would be surprised and ticked off if it happened to them.

 

And I bet they'd be ticked off all over again if they found out later that it was a known issues they just didn't read about.

 

(Glad yours worked out though!)

Yeah people come to the hospital with overdose of  over the counter things like Ibuprofen and Tylenol, ect. One guy was in renal failure from Ibprofen overdose.

 

Medications are medications, follow instructions, don't be ignorant. If you can't do that, you are going to have a bad time.

 

 

[Beer]

I've done the peroxide treatments plenty of times with great success. But treating right next to SPS hasn’t worked out for me. Also not sure how much the size of my tank affected that. Typically the SPS would just be pissed for a couple days, but last time it took out my Katropora (less than .5ml in 4 gallons total volume of hydrogen peroxide _{diluted to 3%).}

 

_{Mros, if you are still running your lights on a normal schedule, you can definitely cut back, or completely turn them off, while you get everything back under control and treat the algae situation. I’m not seeing anything in the tank that looks like it needs light to survive, other than the algae.}

 

_{If you are keeping the lights on because you are concerned with coraline growth (it looks like there is a small amount growing), don’t. I just transferred tanks a week ago and still have the old one running with no lighting. I always struggled to grow coraline, but it has really taken off getting a small amount of ambient light in my basement apartment with very little indirect, very dim light.}

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, Beer said:

I've done the peroxide treatments plenty of times with great success. But treating right next to SPS hasn’t worked out for me. Also not sure how much the size of my tank affected that. Typically the SPS would just be pissed for a couple days, but last time it took out my Katropora (less than .5ml in 4 gallons total volume of hydrogen peroxide diluted to 3%).

Do you have a thread online here about that tank?

[HookedOnAquariums]

For all y’all bashing Fluconazole. You haven’t even used it. If you did you should know it has no side effects. Read through 45 pages on a r2r forum and all deaths during the treatment could be attributed to the aquarist. They even posted the science behind it only hurting bryopsis.  

[Beer]

No, I don’t.

 

I’m debating what to do with it. I cracked the glass installing a lockline fitting (not even any salt creep after a year+), so I’m going to replace the back pane at some point. I need to decide if I am going to notch the glass for an overflow like I have it now or return it to a stock tank. If I do keep it like it is now, do I set it up for a stand behind sump or do I build an overflow box so it can be plumbed for a sump below the tank. I might just list it for sale and leave it up to whomever buys it.

 

If I rebuild it, I’ll make a thread for it.

[Clown79]

11 hours ago, Beer said:

I've done the peroxide treatments plenty of times with great success. But treating right next to SPS hasn’t worked out for me. Also not sure how much the size of my tank affected that. Typically the SPS would just be pissed for a couple days, but last time it took out my Katropora (less than .5ml in 4 gallons total volume of hydrogen peroxide _{diluted to 3%).}

 

_{Mros, if you are still running your lights on a normal schedule, you can definitely cut back, or completely turn them off, while you get everything back under control and treat the algae situation. I’m not seeing anything in the tank that looks like it needs light to survive, other than the algae.}

 

_{If you are keeping the lights on because you are concerned with coraline growth (it looks like there is a small amount growing), don’t. I just transferred tanks a week ago and still have the old one running with no lighting. I always struggled to grow coraline, but it has really taken off getting a small amount of ambient light in my basement apartment with very little indirect, very dim light.}

I've done peroxide treatments as well, never had any ill effects in any of my tanks.

 

 

[Newstead]

Honestly,  you just have to go with what you are comfortable doing. I am very leery of chemicals, so when our redone biocube 29 had an outbreak of GHA I used 3% peroxide. Again and again. No harm to anything, but it kept coming back and spreading. My parameters were good so I ordered a bottle of 35% peroxide. $35 shipped, removed the rocks, scraped and spot treated. GHA came right back. At that point some of my corals were being overcome despite biweekly removal and tweezing away the GHA.

I ordered Reef Flux and against my better judgement added it. 2 weeks later did a water change and added RF back up to original level.

Week 3 the GHA started melting so I changed floss daily and started a skimmer back up. By week 4 all GHA was gone- as was the "tumor" our female clown had had for over 2 years (and had undergone multiple treatments for). 

I started back on weekly water changes. A month later some GHA reappeared. I did one round of Reef Flux and it melted. That was September and have had none since, no cyano, nada. 

So my experience with Reef Flux was positive. JMO. 

[Clown79]

6 hours ago, Newstead said:

Honestly,  you just have to go with what you are comfortable doing. I am very leery of chemicals, so when our redone biocube 29 had an outbreak of GHA I used 3% peroxide. Again and again. No harm to anything, but it kept coming back and spreading. My parameters were good so I ordered a bottle of 35% peroxide. $35 shipped, removed the rocks, scraped and spot treated. GHA came right back. At that point some of my corals were being overcome despite biweekly removal and tweezing away the GHA.

I ordered Reef Flux and against my better judgement added it. 2 weeks later did a water change and added RF back up to original level.

Week 3 the GHA started melting so I changed floss daily and started a skimmer back up. By week 4 all GHA was gone- as was the "tumor" our female clown had had for over 2 years (and had undergone multiple treatments for). 

I started back on weekly water changes. A month later some GHA reappeared. I did one round of Reef Flux and it melted. That was September and have had none since, no cyano, nada. 

So my experience with Reef Flux was positive. JMO. 

The gha will die from peroxide but if the underlying cause of the gha isn't rectified, it will return.

 

All treatments are bandaids if nothing else is changed.

[Newstead]

11 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

 

All treatments are bandaids if nothing else is changed.

True, as has been said 1,000s of times.. In my case, I believe it was the rock itself, some of which was 6 years old and had been transferred from tank to tank. Since the water parameters stayed good, the algae had to be getting nutrients from the rock itself. I believe the Reef Flux was able to kill off the algae fastholds while the PO4 or nitrates or whatever finally leached out of the rock. 

 

Whatever it was, I had a very good experience with it - along with the bonus of it finally curing my clown's unsightly lump, now just a site scar of normal tissue(gone since the end of  July).

[mcarroll]

On 1/4/2019 at 6:33 PM, HookedOnAquariums said:

all deaths during the treatment could be attributed to the aquarist. They even posted the science behind it only hurting bryopsis.  

 

Attributed to the aquarist?  That's a funny spin to put on the fact.  But thanks for at least pointing out that deaths were, in fact, reported there.

 

As for the "science posted" by them, it's incomplete to the point of suspicion.  This med doesn't "only hurt Bryopsis".   No med is that specific.

 

Let's get into some more science behind it since you mentioned that:

 

Bryopsis is just one of many types of siphonous algae in the green algae family. 

(from PhycoKey)

 

The green algae family is just one type of life that uses a sterol known as ergosterol to build and repair their cell membranes.

 

Ergosterol production is suppressed by this med, so any affected organisms will not be able to repair their cells from damage, which (in theory) leads to death.

 

Yes the people that push that treatment claim it's perfectly effective, with no side-effects, etc.    

 

Sounds too good to be true though, doesn't it?

 

So is their claim correct? 

 

Only the claim that the med suppresses ergosterol production seems correct....the rest of the caims are pure speculation based on some trials so far as I can tell.

 

Some more science...

 

Ergosterol is not ONLY found in bryopsis.

 

Ergosterol is not even ONLY found in green algae. 

 

Ergosterol is ALSO found in protozoa and fungi. 

 

(It is not found in animals, which use cholesterol instead....I suspect they took a leap in logic from this fact to imply how "perfectly safe" the treatment is.)

 

Some Q&A....

 

Q: Guess what microscopic critters we have oodles of in our reefs?   

A: Protozoa and fungi.

 

Q: Guess what corals have as co-symbiotes along with their zoxanthellae (and others)?   

A: Protozoa and fungi.

 

Q: What did you read from the thread about fungi in a reef?   

A: "There are none" is what I remember reading.

 

Try this (source and PDF):  Fungi and their role in corals and coral reef ecosystems (PDF)

 

Q: What did you read on the thread about protozoa in a reef?

A: Nothing at all as far as I remember. 

 

Tough luck for the folks who want to be informed before taking risks, eh?

 

Time for some background...

Quote

As components of the micro- and meiofauna, protozoa are an important food source for microinvertebrates. Thus, the ecological role of protozoa in the transfer of bacterial and algal production to successive trophic levels is important. As predators, they prey upon unicellular or filamentous algae, bacteria, and microfungi. Protozoan species include both herbivores and consumers in the decomposer link of the food chain. They also control bacteria populations and biomass to some extent.

 ...from wikipedia.

 

And then try this (source...no PDF tho):  Coral-Associated Heterotrophic Protists

(protozoa are animal-like protists)

...from the abstract:

Quote

Therefore, the presence of these microorganisms on the surface of massive and solitary coral species during bleaching events may explain why these corals survive bleaching better than branched species.

 

There are multitudes of protozoa that contribute greatly to the stability of reefs generally and corals specifically.

 

So, if you're someone who wants to use this treatment, that's fine!  It's not technically illegal even though you are supposed to have a prescription from a vet for it.

 

But be informed if you do since you won't have the benefit of a professional's expertise.

 

And, as with any area of life, be prepared to question everything that could put you or your animals at risk.

 

On 1/4/2019 at 9:47 AM, Clown79 said:

Peroxide treatment is generally safe but some sensitive livestock and coral can react poorly to it.

 

Fluconazole has definitely had positive reports, lots of positive outcomes.

 

Vibrant is the one product that a lot of users end up with cyano after treatment

Lots of drugs have had "lots of positive outcomes" and still been taken off the market (wikipedia) due to side-effects.  LOTS.

 

But I don't remember anyone reporting any kind of death from Vibrant as with the other treatment. 

 

Cyano is no fun, but it's really just an indication that the tank is trying to heal and stabilize.  To me, Vibrant seems (comparatively) harmless. 

 

Risk of death to your livestock (any of it) as a side-effect of a treatment like fluconazole is (to me at least) a lot different than the risk of cyano.

 

I can beat cyano with both hands tied behind my back...sometimes using nothing more "toxic" than patience and elbow grease.  

 

But there's no beating death.

 

Two different categories of risk, IMO.

 

@MrosI hope this hasn't been too far-out or distracting...just trying to follow the conversation where it goes and provide some related info.    FYI, you might want to consider opening a separate thread for the algae issue and posting your current nutrient test results in it along with those last pictures you posted.  Do you have a good lid on this tank, BTW?  At least one member here makes really nice mesh/acrylic tops that might help with the stuff getting put in the tank.

[Mros]

Hey everyone, thanks for all the advise! This forum is great, learning a lot from all the different topics. Well what I've ended up doing this far is cut way back on the lighting schedule and I also have been running my protein skimmer for almost 12 hours a day. The bryopsis hasnt spreed and it's actually starting to go away on its own. My snails have just started eating some of it today so a lot more is gone just since today as well. Still no fish in the tank. I got a single ricordia on a frag plug for a couple days then it detached from the plug and completely dissapeared I have no clue where it went. But heres some pic updates, thanks again everyone! (The
bottom picture is pretty much the last of it)

[Clown79]

16 hours ago, Mros said:

Hey everyone, thanks for all the advise! This forum is great, learning a lot from all the different topics. Well what I've ended up doing this far is cut way back on the lighting schedule and I also have been running my protein skimmer for almost 12 hours a day. The bryopsis hasnt spreed and it's actually starting to go away on its own. My snails have just started eating some of it today so a lot more is gone just since today as well. Still no fish in the tank. I got a single ricordia on a frag plug for a couple days then it detached from the plug and completely dissapeared I have no clue where it went. But heres some pic updates, thanks again everyone! (The
bottom picture is pretty much the last of it)

Mushrooms can do that when they aren't happy with their location. Usually from too much flow or light.

[Lula_Mae]

On 1/4/2019 at 8:08 AM, mcarroll said:

There are some giant threads on the stuff out there and it's very popular....I just read a lot, pay attention to the averages.

Assuming this is regarding the antifungal medication, this statement is a hypothesis, not a truism.   It comes back on people all the time.  

 

Google "reef fluconazole retreat" and see what's out there.   It's no miracle.  Vibrant is better in terms of efficacy and side effects, IMO, but no miracle either.

 

(Dont' forget the "reef" in that search or it's all yeast infection links...a legitimate use for this med.)

 

 

I'm surprise to hear you had side-effects from spot treating with peroxied, but I don't doubt your word.  Thing is, most critters (acro's included) seem to have a good ability to process peroxide with an enzyme (peroxidase).  

 

If your acros were getting tweaked by peroxide spot-treatments (<5 mL of 3% peroxide), that would tend to indicate they were already stressed.  

 

(Check some links here on it....a quote from one: "low enzyme activity levels may indicate a depletion of colony resources.")

 

If there's ever a next time, I'd be interested in knowing the details as they happen.  

 

Just for what it may be worth, folks have spot-treated with much large quantities, for longer, and with higher-concentration peroxide without issues.

I tried fluconazole when I had what I thought was bryopsis.  It wasn't really responding well to peroxide, so I read through some of that big thread on R2R, saw the positive results, read the science behind it, and decided to try it.  Not sure where you've been reading, but I've read many reports of people saying their sps reacted badly to peroxide.  It seems to be pretty common knowledge that doing peroxide dips for hair algae is a no-no with sps, so I'd expect spot treating beside sps to also be done only with extreme caution.  I've also read many, many more negative reports from people using Vibrant in their tanks than the flucon.  I don't think any treatment is without risk, but I'd go for flucon long before I would go for Vibrant simply due to the negative reports I've read. 

[mcarroll]

That reply doesn't seem to go with the quoted material, it just seems to push these treatments even more. 

 

Was that the main idea?

[Clown79]

3 hours ago, Lula_Mae said:

I tried fluconazole when I had what I thought was bryopsis.  It wasn't really responding well to peroxide, so I read through some of that big thread on R2R, saw the positive results, read the science behind it, and decided to try it.  Not sure where you've been reading, but I've read many reports of people saying their sps reacted badly to peroxide.  It seems to be pretty common knowledge that doing peroxide dips for hair algae is a no-no with sps, so I'd expect spot treating beside sps to also be done only with extreme caution.  I've also read many, many more negative reports from people using Vibrant in their tanks than the flucon.  I don't think any treatment is without risk, but I'd go for flucon long before I would go for Vibrant simply due to the negative reports I've read. 

I've done peroxide treatment with my sps in the tank(not acros which seem to be sensitive to it from what I have read) but I am very conservative with quantity use at one time and do it with water movement off.

 

I have never wanted to risk anything, so I tend to do less than more and recommend small qty use for the fact that those who have had problems with peroxide- used high doses or higher grade peroxide.

[Mros]

13 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Mushrooms can do that when they aren't happy with their location. Usually from too much flow or light.

Is it possible that something ate it? I have a few blue legged hermit's, one scarlet, 3 turbo snails, 3 nassarius. Huge population of pods and Bristol worms. The mushroom was neon orange so I'd think it's be easy to locate it but it's for real gone. Only thing I can think is that it's under a rock or under the sand if it's still in there.

[Clown79]

5 hours ago, Mros said:

Is it possible that something ate it? I have a few blue legged hermit's, one scarlet, 3 turbo snails, 3 nassarius. Huge population of pods and Bristol worms. The mushroom was neon orange so I'd think it's be easy to locate it but it's for real gone. Only thing I can think is that it's under a rock or under the sand if it's still in there.

Not likely with that list of livestock.

 

It's most likely under a rock, if it gets under sand, it may not make it.