C2 da fish Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 So I have Chemi pure and poly filter recently put in my tank and I know it going to drop my phosphate to 0 and nitrate to 0 is that something to worry about I have been running my tank like that for a few months than took it out then just added new ones after 2 months should I try to avoid using those if I don’t need it ? I just have it in there as a precaution since my hand have been in there with water changes or anything unexpected but I’m worried about have a too clean of a tank because I know coral needs phosphate and nitrates will the Chemi pure and poly filter suck it all up or will my corals consume some also at undetectable rates Quote Link to comment
seabass Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 What test kits (nitrate and phosphate) are you using? The Poly Filter changes color so you know when to change it (unless you are just talking about filter floss, which should be changed at least weekly). ChemiPure claims to last for months, but I don't find that it lasts that long (maybe two or three weeks at best for me). I pretty much stick to a decent activated carbon now instead. Nitrate is produced as part of your bio-filter; and phosphate is introduced with food (so they are being imported daily). Without export mechanisms, they can build up. But you are right, you typically don't want either at 0.00 ppm levels. 2 Quote Link to comment
C2 da fish Posted December 13, 2018 Author Share Posted December 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, seabass said: What test kits (nitrate and phosphate) are you using? The Poly Filter changes color so you know when to change it (unless you are just talking about filter floss, which should be changed at least weekly). ChemiPure claims to last for months, but I don't find that it lasts that long (maybe two or three weeks at best for me). I pretty much stick to a decent activated carbon now instead. Nitrate is produced as part of your bio-filter; and phosphate is introduced with food (so they are being imported daily). Without export mechanisms, they can build up. But you are right, you typically don't want either at 0.00 ppm levels. I'm using salifert and hanna test kits and I'm using the poly filter the one that changes colors and I do feed everyday frozen food and feed my corals 2x a week sometimes barely started feeding corals 2 weeks in Quote Link to comment
seabass Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 So what are your tank's current phosphate and nitrate levels? Quote Link to comment
Clown79 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 I do the same as seabass. I buy my Kent carbon in bulk, bag it myself and change every 2-3 weeks. I bag my own purigen as well. I use floss pads which is changed 2 times a week. Chemipure didn't last as long as stated and I found it over priced. 1 Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 6 hours ago, C2 da fish said: So I have Chemi pure and poly filter recently put in my tank and I know it going to drop my phosphate to 0 and nitrate to 0 is that something to worry about I have been running my tank like that for a few months than took it out then just added new ones after 2 months should I try to avoid using those if I don’t need it ? I just have it in there as a precaution since my hand have been in there with water changes or anything unexpected but I’m worried about have a too clean of a tank because I know coral needs phosphate and nitrates will the Chemi pure and poly filter suck it all up or will my corals consume some also at undetectable rates Your concerns are valid. In a nutshell, your tank is way to young to be needing these things. To elaborate... PolyFilter (per their FAQ) should not alter nutrient levels very much. But neither of those media should be run preventatively...not IMO at least. (The only actual prevention for excess nutrients is to not put excess amounts into the tank in the first place...which is actually a function of stocking.) Remediation tools (GFO, activated carbon, resin, carbon source dosing, et al) are useful, but limited in overall effectiveness. First, none are capable of prevention unless they can eat the nutrients right out of your hand - before your animals or any of the microbes in the tank get started on them. Second, they are very selective vs the range of nutrients you're putting in the tank. In a situation where a tank is being fed more than it can process, what the use of these tools often does is to eliminate dissolved nitrogen and phosphorus sources in the tank. That's great, but use of these tools also leaves behind a wide range of dissolved and non-dissolved nutrients. If you "do it right" under the somewhat typical "prevention" formula (meaning you strive for "zero nutrients"), you end up with an environment where corals (which are dependent on some dissolved phosphate being available) can struggle, but algae, which can propagate themselves to settle anywhere there is light and space can gain access to phosphate that's naturally bound to the substrate they settle on. (ie bare aragonite, which binds phosphate just as well as GFO) So use tools when needed, but realize that they are not a substitute for actual prevention or even for a good cleanup crew. The CUC is the "right way" to manage algae, BTW, if that's the overarching fear driving the perceived need for prevention. (And you're the #1 member of the CUC!) 1 Quote Link to comment
MrObscura Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 I change my chemi blue every 4 weeks. I don't even really use it for reducing nutrients as waterchanges and proper husbandry keep things inline, but more for peace of mind just in case contaminates get into the tank or there's a sudden enexpected spike of nutrients. Polyfilter seems unnecessary to me and seems to be used more in an emergency to get high levels down, not something used regularly . I don't see a need for it and definitely wouldnt use both. Don't worry about a little phos and Nitrate. 2 1 Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 11 minutes ago, MrObscura said: Polyfilter seems unnecessary to me and seems to be used more in an emergency to get high levels down, not something used regularly . I don't see a need for it and definitely wouldnt use both. Both media seem similar like that to me. Fine to keep either (or both) around "just in case". But to use one or both continuously actually seems kinda "extra". I keep some dechlorinator and activated carbon around all the time on the same basis. But I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to use them over the ten+ years my system has been running. "Nutrient control" comes down to stocking levels, which dictates nutrient-input levels. "Algae control" comes down to herbivores/CUC (which includes the reefkeeper) in the end. 2 Quote Link to comment
C2 da fish Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 16 hours ago, mcarroll said: Your concerns are valid. In a nutshell, your tank is way to young to be needing these things. To elaborate... PolyFilter (per their FAQ) should not alter nutrient levels very much. But neither of those media should be run preventatively...not IMO at least. (The only actual prevention for excess nutrients is to not put excess amounts into the tank in the first place...which is actually a function of stocking.) Remediation tools (GFO, activated carbon, resin, carbon source dosing, et al) are useful, but limited in overall effectiveness. First, none are capable of prevention unless they can eat the nutrients right out of your hand - before your animals or any of the microbes in the tank get started on them. Second, they are very selective vs the range of nutrients you're putting in the tank. In a situation where a tank is being fed more than it can process, what the use of these tools often does is to eliminate dissolved nitrogen and phosphorus sources in the tank. That's great, but use of these tools also leaves behind a wide range of dissolved and non-dissolved nutrients. If you "do it right" under the somewhat typical "prevention" formula (meaning you strive for "zero nutrients"), you end up with an environment where corals (which are dependent on some dissolved phosphate being available) can struggle, but algae, which can propagate themselves to settle anywhere there is light and space can gain access to phosphate that's naturally bound to the substrate they settle on. (ie bare aragonite, which binds phosphate just as well as GFO) So use tools when needed, but realize that they are not a substitute for actual prevention or even for a good cleanup crew. The CUC is the "right way" to manage algae, BTW, if that's the overarching fear driving the perceived need for prevention. (And you're the #1 member of the CUC!) Thanks that some great advice now the question. Is do I leave it in or take it out ? I haven’t test my water in a few days before I put the Chemi pure and poly filter Quote Link to comment
C2 da fish Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 16 hours ago, Clown79 said: I do the same as seabass. I buy my Kent carbon in bulk, bag it myself and change every 2-3 weeks. I bag my own purigen as well. I use floss pads which is changed 2 times a week. Chemipure didn't last as long as stated and I found it over priced. So you run carbon and Purigen year around all the time ? Quote Link to comment
C2 da fish Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 What kind of preparation did you do before putting hands in tank for water change or moving corals etc do you wash hands with dish soap wait a few minutes ? Quote Link to comment
seabass Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 41 minutes ago, C2 da fish said: What kind of preparation did you do before putting hands in tank for water change or moving corals etc do you wash hands with dish soap wait a few minutes ? Regular hand soap is fine, then rinse thoroughly. Try to avoid scented soaps if possible. 50 minutes ago, C2 da fish said: now the question. Is do I leave it in or take it out ? I haven’t test my water in a few days before I put the Chemi pure and poly filter They shouldn't be doing any real harm. ChemiPure (or similar media, like activated carbon) will help remove the dissolved organics in the water (kind of like what a protein skimmer does). It also helps improve water clarity, allowing maximum light to reach your corals. Regular activated carbon won't remove nitrate or phosphate. In fact, activated carbon can release some phosphate (the amounts depend on the brand). Usually, cheaper carbon will release more phosphate. In general, most people actually have an excess of nitrate and phosphate. So many efforts have been developed to help reduce these nutrients. You just don't want them to get too high (especially phosphate, which is often responsible for algae blooms), or too low. I probably wouldn't run a Poly Filter (more from a cost perspective than from any real harm that it might do). However they can be effective when trying to remove unwanted (and sometimes unknown) substances. 2 Quote Link to comment
Tamberav Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Just wash your hands and there is no worries... its not like there isn't air pollution. We take corals and dip them in harsh dips and pesticides.... I would like to know where your hands have been that could harm corals 😛 Quote Link to comment
seabass Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Tamberav said: I would like to know where your hands have been that could harm corals While at a LFS, I heard this guy say he was working with paint thinner (supposedly even washed his hands afterwards), then did some work in his tank, and his fish died. I suppose it could have been what he did and not what was on his hands. IDK, I don't like having sunscreen or household cleaners on my hands. I always wash my hand before putting them in my tanks (for the livestock); but more importantly, I wash my hands after putting them in my tanks (for my protection). Quote Link to comment
Tamberav Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 46 minutes ago, seabass said: While at a LFS, I heard this guy say he was working with paint thinner (supposedly even washed his hands afterwards), then did some work in his tank, and his fish died. I suppose it could have been what he did and not what was on his hands. IDK, I don't like having sunscreen or household cleaners on my hands. I always wash my hand before putting them in my tanks (for the livestock); but more importantly, I wash my hands after putting them in my tanks (for my protection). Well I more meant from day to day of a normal person with acceptable hygiene. If a person doesn't wash after...yikes! Those be some dried out hands! 3 Quote Link to comment
Clown79 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 6 hours ago, C2 da fish said: So you run carbon and Purigen year around all the time ? Yes. Activated carbon like Kent or Seachem matrix removes toxins, polishes the water, and reduces issues between coral secretion(chemical warefare) Purigen removes nitrogenous waste. 1 Quote Link to comment
C2 da fish Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 23 hours ago, seabass said: Regular hand soap is fine, then rinse thoroughly. Try to avoid scented soaps if possible. They shouldn't be doing any real harm. ChemiPure (or similar media, like activated carbon) will help remove the dissolved organics in the water (kind of like what a protein skimmer does). It also helps improve water clarity, allowing maximum light to reach your corals. Regular activated carbon won't remove nitrate or phosphate. In fact, activated carbon can release some phosphate (the amounts depend on the brand). Usually, cheaper carbon will release more phosphate. In general, most people actually have an excess of nitrate and phosphate. So many efforts have been developed to help reduce these nutrients. You just don't want them to get too high (especially phosphate, which is often responsible for algae blooms), or too low. I probably wouldn't run a Poly Filter (more from a cost perspective than from any real harm that it might do). However they can be effective when trying to remove unwanted (and sometimes unknown) substances. So Ill leave it in for now then take it out when it’s all used up and switch to using carbon or put an other one in ? Quote Link to comment
seabass Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 4 hours ago, C2 da fish said: So Ill leave it in for now then take it out when it’s all used up and switch to using carbon or put an other one in ? Yeah, some people swear by ChemiPure. I just think it doesn't last as long as advertised; otherwise it's fine to use. A component of ChemiPure is activated carbon, so I assume that (over time) it gets clogged, exhausted, or covered with a biological film pretty much like regular activated carbon does. 1 Quote Link to comment
Clown79 Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 2 hours ago, seabass said: Yeah, some people swear by ChemiPure. I just think it doesn't last as long as advertised; otherwise it's fine to use. A component of ChemiPure is activated carbon, so I assume that (over time) it gets clogged, exhausted, or covered with a biological film pretty much like regular activated carbon does. I also never found it lasted that long. I found the added media to their carbon didn't do enough to help issues when they did occur. It was such a small amount it exhausted quickly. I myself prefer to bag my own media and I have gotten better results with controlling per say phos or algae when I did have issues. 1 Quote Link to comment
C2 da fish Posted December 17, 2018 Author Share Posted December 17, 2018 On 12/15/2018 at 6:57 AM, Clown79 said: I also never found it lasted that long. I found the added media to their carbon didn't do enough to help issues when they did occur. It was such a small amount it exhausted quickly. I myself prefer to bag my own media and I have gotten better results with controlling per say phos or algae when I did have issues. Do you have a link that you can post the recommended products your mentioning ? I want to make the switch once the Chemi pure is exhausted and just to recap the carbon your mentioning removes toxins and not “ nitrates or phosphates correct ? Quote Link to comment
C2 da fish Posted December 17, 2018 Author Share Posted December 17, 2018 And I always will leave the carbon inside my tank and replace how often ? I don’t have a skimmer only do water changes weekly sometimes twice weekly about 10% and have the poly filter and Chemi pure Quote Link to comment
seabass Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 On 12/13/2018 at 3:55 AM, seabass said: So what are your tank's phosphate and nitrate levels? I don't believe that you ever said what they were; but you seem very concerned that they might get too low. You might be worried about nothing. 38 minutes ago, C2 da fish said: just to recap the carbon your mentioning removes toxins and not “ nitrates or phosphates correct ? Correct, activated carbon does not actively remove any inorganic nitrate or phosphate. It might even release a little inorganic phosphate. Here's the brand I'm using: https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-Matrix-Carbon-1-Liter/dp/B000255S00? I recommend using less than what they suggest, and changing it out more frequently (at least once every two weeks). 1 1 Quote Link to comment
C2 da fish Posted December 17, 2018 Author Share Posted December 17, 2018 21 minutes ago, seabass said: I don't believe that you ever said what they were; but you seem very concerned that they might get too low. You might be worried about nothing. Correct, activated carbon does not actively remove any inorganic nitrate or phosphate. It might even release a little inorganic phosphate. Here's the brand I'm using: https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-Matrix-Carbon-1-Liter/dp/B000255S00? I recommend using less than what they suggest, and changing it out more frequently (at least once every two weeks). I just tested my tank it’s night time though and I know it may vary but I usually test late at night and afternoon nitrate 10ppm phosphate 0.06ppm so it looks like I still have some and I did a water change and a week ago it’s been about a week since I added the Chemi pure and poly filter . And I’m going to do a water change in the morning . My phosphate was 0.13 the last time I tested it about a little over a week Quote Link to comment
C2 da fish Posted December 17, 2018 Author Share Posted December 17, 2018 Ok I saw the link you sent me so I would put it in a fine mesh bag and throw it in my sump and use less than recommend and change every 2 weeks or so and that would remove contaminates in the water metals etc any cologne , lotions on hands ps I don’t spray cologne in my room or air fresheners Quote Link to comment
seabass Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 Your levels are a bit over desired levels, but shouldn't be a problem. You should be able to drop phosphate down to as low as 0.01 ppm (as long as you are still feeding) without a problem. You don't need to worry about low levels just yet. Yes, you need a fine mesh bag to hold the loose carbon. Passively placing it in your sump won't be as effective as having water flow through it. You might consider a cheap internal filter for it (I think Wallmart sells them). Activated carbon isn't a cure all. It will remove most meds, chemical warfare from corals, discoloration from the water, dissolved organics, etc. But it won't remove everything (like metals and oils). 1 Quote Link to comment
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