Hi, new nano reefer

[Clown79]

So sorry for the loss. 

The fish may have already been sick and poor appetite is a sign.

Is the other clown exhibiting symptoms?

 

As a new hobbyist, sticking with the KISS approach is less risky and simpler.

 

Advanced methods can go bad quick when first starting out.

 

Feeding fish daily with good quality food and feeding corals 1 time a week should help with providing nutrients.

 

over feeding can lead to the opposite problem- too much nutrients.

 

I wouldn't be overly concerned with 10ppm nitrates, thats not really high.

A few more waterchanges and it most likely will drop, especially with one fish. 

 

 your corals aren't overly sensitive. 10ppm is fine.

 

Many phos testers aren't sensitive enough for low levels.

What kit did you use? 

 

Using activated carbon and floss are common filter medias most use

I wouldn't use gfo at this point. If you have 0 to low levels of phos, gfo isn't needed.

 

In new tanks and even mature ones, less can be more.

 

The leather looks healthy.

 

 

 

 

 

[AlexB]

19 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

So sorry for the loss. 

The fish may have already been sick and poor appetite is a sign.

Is the other clown exhibiting symptoms?

 

As a new hobbyist, sticking with the KISS approach is less risky and simpler.

 

Advanced methods can go bad quick when first starting out.

 

Feeding fish daily with good quality food and feeding corals 1 time a week should help with providing nutrients.

 

over feeding can lead to the opposite problem- too much nutrients.

 

I wouldn't be overly concerned with 10ppm nitrates, thats not really high.

A few more waterchanges and it most likely will drop, especially with one fish. 

 

 your corals aren't overly sensitive. 10ppm is fine.

 

Many phos testers aren't sensitive enough for low levels.

What kit did you use? 

 

Using activated carbon and floss are common filter medias most use

I wouldn't use gfo at this point. If you have 0 to low levels of phos, gfo isn't needed.

 

In new tanks and even mature ones, less can be more.

 

The leather looks healthy.

 

 

 

 

 

The other clown is exhibiting the same symptoms, poor appetite and very skinny but so far he is still kicking. Not holding out much hope for him. If I do loose him should I wait a while to get replacement fish. If I do wait will the tank continue maturing without any feeding in the tank?

I use the salifert phos test kit using the sensitive test. Going to test it again this week as I have removed the gfo and carbon almost a week ago. The only filtration I'm running is floss and the protein skimmer.

[Clown79]

The tank should go fallow, depending on the disease will depend on the length of time. 

 

It would be best to set up a qt tank. When you get new fish you can observe them and if they have issues, you can then medicate.

 

Feeding the corals once a week would be good if the tank has no fish in it.

 

All my tanks read 0 with salifert, that was over 3 yrs.

 

 

[Lula_Mae]

On 12/13/2018 at 10:17 AM, mcarroll said:

The disparity of having a plentiful supply of nitrates and ZERO phosphates can be problematic to coral and can encourage some of the worst pest algae.

 

If the test result for phosphate didn't turn very blue at all, and if nitrates continue to hold at 10 ppm or rise, then you have a problem.  

 

As was already suggested, stop dosing any more ammonia and hope that's all that was driving your numbers in that direction.

 

If so, test results should normalize on their own, with nitrates decreasing with usage+denitrification and phosphates increasing slightly.

 

If you are doing anything else to "remove nutrients" like algae filtration, GFO, etc, then I would suggest taking them offline as well, at least until the tank stabilizes and matures a bit.

 

Since you have stony corals in the tank already (a good thing for the tank IF you can take care of them) and assuming your nutrient numbers straighten out after you stop ammonia dosing, alkalinity should be the most important test number to watch.  When alk dips down to 7.0, either dose a real two-part system or do a water change large enough to make the correction.  Verify by retesting until you have your process down pat.   I would try not to let alkalinity dip any lower than 7.0. 

 

As long as you do that and as long as nitrates and phosphates remain non-zero, your tank should be fine.

 

Be sure to keep algae managed by hand AND/OR with the generous addition of herbivores to the tank.  Don't skimp on the "by hand" part....you're the #1 member of the cleanup crew!  🙂

It also matters what test kit he's using. If it's an API test, his phos. probably isn't 0. I'd only believe the zero maybe if it were a low range test. And 10 is hardly what I'd call plentiful nitrates. For a new tank and new hobbyist, it's fine. I try to be careful not to throw too much information at newbies because I remember how overwhelming it was when I started. 

 

On 12/14/2018 at 2:56 AM, Wonderboy said:

Jump starting the nitrogen cycle with ammonia is perfectly fine - It is common practice for fish-less cycling in aquaponics, and I have also experienced its usefulness with many saltwater systems, working best with seeded bacteria (liverock or bottled - both is great, good job). I think that you have done a thorough job setting everything up; nonetheless, I agree that the tank is still young and prone to unseen fluctuations that you will need to respond to with water changes. Just be ready after any addition or routine change you do with the tank. You did push the limits, but I still get the idea you have a good plan with what you're doing - now you just need to watch parameters and organic responses.  Oh and that leather is one tough cookie; if it's not melting by now, it's probably going to be fine. I am positive the firefish will work, get it in there like @Tamberav suggested, before the clowns develop a solitary disposition. Also, you can try adding and rearranging some rocks upon tank-mate additions to distort territories. Also, make sure to keep feeding super minimal (fasting if needing) when nitrates approach 10. Phosphorus is a macro nutrient that all life needs in some ratio. Looking forward to the updates!

Ammonia is not necessary with live rock and can actually delay the cycle which will naturally occur with die off from the rocks. Aquaponics and freshwater cycling are very different, and I have used ammonia to cycle freshwater before, but only used in saltwater when starting with dry rock.

 

 OP, it's time to hit the pause button until at least sometime in January. Rushing in this hobby never leads to good things. You need to wait at least two weeks, preferably a month, in between additions, to let the tank settle in and adjust. My leathers take a few weeks or more to start looking happy, so give it time.

 

Regarding the fish-- look around for common fish diseases and see if one fits your clown's symptoms. I'm sorry you lost it. Your remaining one probably will need treatment (not in the reef tank), and to let the tank lie fallow for a while. I highly recommend a quarantine set up for future additions, it can be a simple 10 gallon with a sponge filter or even a 5 gallon bucket. I try to quarantine at least 6 weeks. 

[Wonderboy]

I have found that monitoring and dosing the first stage of the nitrogen cycle has helped to prepare many systems for conquering fluctuations after new additions. If you are preparing to add 200 fish to a system, it is a gamble to just add them and see what happens. Any system (fresh or salt) can be and should be prepared for the new bio load by increasing the bacterial population; this can (there's many ways) be done with particular ammonia dosing and testing - at the rate your colony can convert things to nitrate anyways. This way, upon addition, there will be 0 ammonium spike. No, it is not necessary with live rock, but it maintains an ample bacterial population, and this essentially assures success. You do have to be ready to remove nitrate though (macroalgae!). Nitrogen cycle responses in aquaponics are identical to nitrogen cycle responses in freshwater aquariums in my experience, but not sure why this is a point. I was once taught that cycling saltwater is different than fresh also, but after retraining my practices, all of my freshwater systems glass sides now become covered with copepods and amphipods before I add fish or invertebrates, too.

 

Sorry about your loss - it was likely distribution practices, but it could definitely be parasitic as brought up. If it were me, I would wait also, as previously recommended, a few weeks before a new addition, just in case it was parasitic.

 

*Hoping the other one can pull through

[Clown79]

Ammonia dosing with any life isn't advised, especially when the liverock is established(cured) and there is coral in the tank already.

 

Ammonia rosing is really only required with dry rock.

 

Putting a tiny bit of food in the tank 1 time a week with keep the bacteria flourishing.

 

[Wonderboy]

24 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Ammonia dosing with any life isn't advised, especially when the liverock is established(cured) and there is coral in the tank already.

 

Ammonia rosing is really only required with dry rock.

 

Putting a tiny bit of food in the tank 1 time a week with keep the bacteria flourishing.

 

I agree 99% lol. Ammonia dosing should not be a common approach; It is very easy for one to overdue it if not mathematically tracking and proving influences over time. I agree that the "left over" food approach is more than sufficient for 90% of systems (you can do this for dry rock startups too - it does the same thing that ammonia would do).

 

**So basically most hobbyists should avoid ammonia because there's easier, safer ways. Regardless, I think that the OP has a good handle on things, despite losing a clown.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Wonderboy

[Wonderboy]

@AlexB

@AlexB

@AlexB

[specore]

2 minutes ago, Wonderboy said:

@AlexB

@AlexB

@AlexB

?

?

?

🙂

 

[Wonderboy]

Don't ask me - cursor was stuck in the highlighted name and I couldn't type... a few successive deletes and enters and deletes later, and now we're her lol.

 

I was trying to mention that @AlexB could try increasing his aquarium temp a couple degrees to aid in metabolism and in turn immune system responses.

[mcarroll]

16 hours ago, specore said:

Sometimes there is such a thing as too much information.

I would suggest that bad info is the only "too much info" that's possible.

 

16 hours ago, specore said:

Your tank is only in its infancy so please don't go and try to raise nutrient levels just yet.  Give it a few months to begin maturing and settle into a groove, then think about these sort of things.

Indeed! The advice so far has been to stop adding nutrients, stop removing nutrients and to see how things go. 

 

I think a few months time is a very reasonable period unless there's a change for the worse in the mean time...in particular if the nutrient imbalance does not self-correct as predicted.

 

16 hours ago, specore said:

Seems like there are more and more new hobbyists having nuisance algae or cyano outbreaks from trying to increase nutrient levels.

Anything is potentially harmful if misused.  And arbitrarily tweaking/"chasing numbers" is to be avoided.   But that applies to adding to or removing things from the water.  (e.g. fertilizer vs GFO) 

 

That may partly be what got us into the current situation, in fact.

 

The algae outbreak we hope to prevent in this case is (mainly) dino's.  As long as a green algae grows, then all should be well....normal management practices will prevail.

 

17 hours ago, AlexB said:

Great info in those articles, thx!

You're welcome!  You might like the stuff I've collected in the Fish section as well.  

 

 

[AlexB]

I did a 20% water change yesterday and this morning tested the parameters. 

 

                    TUES- Dec.11.       SUN.- Dec.16

Salinity -             1.026                   1.026

temperature -    78.3F                    77.9

pH -                      8.15                      8.15

Nitrate -                 10                           5

Phosphate -            0                         .01

Calcium -               480                      430

Magnesium -       1350                    1370

Alk -                         8.0                       8.2

 

Appears that the nitrates have reduced a bit due to the water change and

the phosphates are very slowly increasing since I removed the GFO from the filter.

My remaining Ocellaris clown appears to be doing better, its active and forages on the bottom but still feeds very little from whatever I offer him and looks skinny. I noticed this morning that one of my five bluelegged hermits is MIA, not sure what happened to him. Guess I should put some empty slightly bigger shells in the tank for these guys as they grow. He was the smallest. If he did stroll out of his shell could the peppermint shrimp have eaten him?

So far i'm very pleased with the tank, it's looking good. The only hard part of this is sitting on my hands trying to avoid jumping in and buying more livestock. Guess I'll have to wait till the new year. 

 

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

3 hours ago, AlexB said:

                  TUES- Dec.11.       SUN.- Dec.16

Salinity -             1.026                   1.026

temperature -    78.3F                    77.9

pH -                      8.15                      8.15

Nitrate -                 10                           5

Phosphate -            0                         .01

Calcium -               480                      430

Magnesium -       1350                    1370

Alk -                         8.0                       8.2

 

Appears that the nitrates have reduced a bit due to the water change and

the phosphates are very slowly increasing since I removed the GFO from the filter.

Water changes do not account for the decrease in calcium though, do they?  Alk and Mg both went up at the same time.

 

I'd like to think corals and microbial life in general have all been seeing a growth spurt as conditions have been returning to normal.

 

But those test results are somewhat contradictory.  It may be worth testing your fresh-mixed saltwater as well as your tank water next time.

 

Generally, that's the start of a good set of trends though!

 

BTW, what are you feeding your fish?

[AlexB]

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Water changes do not account for the decrease in calcium though, do they?  Alk and Mg both went up at the same time.

 

I'd like to think corals and microbial life in general have all been seeing a growth spurt as conditions have been returning to normal.

 

But those test results are somewhat contradictory.  It may be worth testing your fresh-mixed saltwater as well as your tank water next time.

 

Generally, that's the start of a good set of trends though!

 

BTW, what are you feeding your fish?

I alternate between Omega One marine flakes and mysis shrimp but I feed very sparingly.

[AlexB]

My clown seems to think the zoas are an anemone and seems to nip and rub against it. Is this normal? Some polyps are not opening up because of this. Will this cause any longterm harm?

[Wonderboy]

They should be fine, they're tough; still getting used to the new stimulus. It might be time to get a better hosting option pretty soon.

[AlexB]

The tank seems to be doing ok except for a finger on the leather, it appears to be dying off. The rest of it looks fine. Is there anything I should do or just leave it resolve itself?

 

 

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, AlexB said:

The tank seems to be doing ok except for a finger on the leather, it appears to be dying off. The rest of it looks fine. Is there anything I should do or just leave it resolve itself?

 

 

If it is indeed a piece dying off, could be algae or even another coral causing it, simply cut the piece off. 

 

I attached the pic to where you should cut it.

 

It will be fine and regrow

[AlexB]

Thx Clown79, I will perform the operation tomorrow. 😆