Tropic Marin All In One Dosing?

[Travis]

Anyone here try this yet? I just ordered some along with a BRS doser.

 

If this works out, we have entered the Golden Age of reefing IMO 😂

 

 

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/all-for-reef-tropic-marin.html

 

It's going to be nice to only have to use one outlet from my Apex Jr to control the BRS doser.

 

I suppose the only test that will need to be done regularly is Alk.  Maybe test Ca and Mag once every month or two.

 

What do you folks think?

 

Useful Links:

• Starting Dose Calculator
  https://www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com/en/minerals/all-for-reef.html#open-5
• Apex Code Generator for BRS and Drews Dosers.
  https://www.reeftronics.net/adpg/dosingcalc.php

[Joevember]

Damn, I didn't think you could put all those elements together without something precipitating out. Let us know how well it does.

[Travis]

2 minutes ago, Joevember said:

Damn, I didn't think you could put all those elements together without something precipitating out. Let us know how well it does.

That's what I thought too. Will keep you all posted.

 

The reviews I have read, although not many, have been positive.

[MrObscura]

I know a guy named randy, who posts over on other forum and is a chemist(or some type of scientist) said the one kalk on the market that claims to dose Mag as well is bs because they can't be combined all together. When I saw this I figured that be the case as well. 

[Travis]

Just now, MrObscura said:

I know a guy named randy, who posts over on other forum and is a chemist(or some type of scientist) said the one kalk on the market that claims to dose Mag as well is bs because they can't be combined all together. When I saw this I figured that be the case as well. 

But this isn't Kalkwasser.

[Travis]

Found this nifty Apex Code generating form. This just got even easier lol.

 

https://www.reeftronics.net/adpg/dosingcalc.php

[Christopher Marks]

That’s pretty cool! The golden age of reefing indeed! Let us know how it works out for you 🙂

[Travis]

4 minutes ago, Christopher Marks said:

That’s pretty cool! The golden age of reefing indeed! Let us know how it works out for you 🙂

I'll do my bestest 😂

[Travis]

And a handy dandy dosing calculator on the Tropic Marin website.

 

https://www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com/en/minerals/all-for-reef.html#open-5

[MrObscura]

9 hours ago, Travis said:

But this isn't Kalkwasser.

All kalkwasser is is calcium hydroxide mixed with water causing the calcium and hydroxide to seperate. The point was that mag cannot be combined before hand. 

 

 

[A Little Blue]

It’s a neat idea. A guy at BRS have been using it for several months with no complaints in SPS dominated tank. 

A little pricey but you save on dosing pumps. 

[MrObscura]

I'd be interested to see if it's actually doing anything for Mag though, or are Mag levels simply being maintained despite its use, as is often the case. 

[Travis]

1 hour ago, A Little Blue said:

It’s a neat idea. A guy at BRS have been using it for several months with no complaints in SPS dominated tank. 

A little pricey but you save on dosing pumps. 

My tank has very little hard coral. It only uses 1dkh per week. So I don’t think this will get all that expensive lol. 

[Travis]

On 12/6/2018 at 6:12 PM, MrObscura said:

All kalkwasser is is calcium hydroxide mixed with water causing the calcium and hydroxide to seperate. The point was that mag cannot be combined before hand. 

 

 

I do believe that this product uses Calcium Acetate instead of Calcium Hydroxide. 

 

EDIT 12-9-18: We now have confirmation from Randy Holmes-Farley, that this is actually Calcium Formate.

[A Little Blue]

13 hours ago, Travis said:

My tank has very little hard coral. It only uses 1dkh per week. So I don’t think this will get all that expensive lol. 

It won’t. Lol 

[Travis]

Here's a quote about Calcium Acetate from Randy Holmes Farley

 

Quote

One-part balanced additive systems: Calcium Acetate

Calcium acetate is a product that has gotten relatively little publicity despite its apparent ease of use and the commercial availability to aquarists. In some ways it is similar to the combination of limewater and vinegar. When dissolved in water (fresh or salt), you have calcium ions and acetate ions. The acetate is rapidly metabolized by tank organisms to form bicarbonate, carbon dioxide, and water:

CH3CO2– (acetate) + 2 O2 → HCO3– + CO2 + H2O

This equation suggests that pH of such tanks may stay near the low end of normal, because of the excess carbon dioxide, but the practical experience of people using calcium acetate suggests that this is not a big concern.

Calcium acetate will also facilitate the growth of bacteria and the reduction of nutrients in systems, similar to that with folks dosing vinegar or vodka for that purpose. It will also facilitate conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas (N2) in anoxic regions of live sand and rock by providing the carbon source necessary for the process. The equation below shows the process that could take place:

5 CH3CO2– (acetate) + 8 NO3– → 10 CO2 + 4 N2 + 13 OH– + H2O

 

[MrObscura]

He's said a calcium component and mag cannot be combined. 

[Travis]

5 minutes ago, MrObscura said:

He's said a calcium component and mag cannot be combined. 

Well, let's see what he's got to say. 🙂

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/calling-randy-tropic-marins-all-the-reef.520092/

[MrObscura]

You know what I'm confused about? Why does it have 2 caps? Is it two seperate solutions? 

[Travis]

5 minutes ago, MrObscura said:

You know what I'm confused about? Why does it have 2 caps? Is it two seperate solutions? 

It’s a Betix bottle. Makes for easy quick maual measuring. 

[MrObscura]

I always wondered what those were when I see two part. Lol

[Tamberav]

Looks neat... I wonder how much it effects pH. I would like you try it but I have so much 2part and kalk to go through yet 😞

[Travis]

@MrObscura, I guess this is his approval? lol 😂

 

 

 

[Tamberav]

Hehe I asked him how it works 🙂 I wouldn't mind some carbon dosing for my clams.

[Travis]

14 hours ago, Tamberav said:

Hehe I asked him how it works 🙂 I wouldn't mind some carbon dosing for my clams.

And here is his reply 🙂

 

There have been a number of such products for a long time.  Calcium acetate was the most common one, but this is calcium formate, so it provides less organic material per alk and calcium dose.  But it works similarly.

 

here's a description of how these work (article is older so prices are not current):

 

The Many Methods for Supplementing Calcium and Alkalinity - REEFEDITION

http://www.reefedition.com/the-many-methods-for-supplementing-calcium-and-alkalinity/

 

One-part balanced additive systems: Calcium Acetate

 

Calcium acetate is a product that has gotten relatively little publicity despite its apparent ease of use and the commercial availability to aquarists. In some ways it is similar to the combination of limewater and vinegar. When dissolved in water (fresh or salt), you have calcium ions and acetate ions. The acetate is rapidly metabolized by tank organisms to form bicarbonate, carbon dioxide, and water:

 

CH3CO2– (acetate) + 2 O2 → HCO3– + CO2 + H2O

 

This equation suggests that pH of such tanks may stay near the low end of normal, because of the excess carbon dioxide, but the practical experience of people using calcium acetate suggests that this is not a big concern.

 

Calcium acetate will also facilitate the growth of bacteria and the reduction of nutrients in systems, similar to that with folks dosing vinegar or vodka for that purpose. It will also facilitate conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas (N2) in anoxic regions of live sand and rock by providing the carbon source necessary for the process. The equation below shows the process that could take place:

 

5 CH3CO2– (acetate) + 8 NO3– → 10 CO2 + 4 N2 + 13 OH– + H2O

 

One of the sources of calcium acetate available to aquarists is Salifert’s All in One (a product that also contains some strontium, amino acids, and some trace elements). It is a liquid product that can be poured directly into a tank with no immediate concerns about pH. The current version of their commercial product is 250,000-mg/L calcium acetate, so it contains the equivalent of 3,160 meq/L of alkalinity. This product sells in the US for about $45/L. Consequently, it costs about $14 per thousand meq/L of alkalinity. That price makes it very expensive for an aquarium with a large demand for calcium and alkalinity, but the zero equipment cost (unless you automate it with a dosing pump) makes it attractive for small aquaria, especially nano-reef tanks.

 

I have no information on the purity of the material, or the exact nature of the “trace elements” in it. Everything in the bottle will be delivered to the tank. It poses no unusual safety concerns. The upper limit to how much calcium and alkalinity can be supplied to a tank in this fashion depends on two factors. If the metabolism of acetate is rapid and the dose is very high, oxygen might be depleted. If the conversion is slow then acetate can build up in the tank (not itself a significant concern except perhaps at very high levels where it might confound an alkalinity test). Habib Sekha of Salifert has indicated that using the doses recommended on the bottle will not lead to either of these issues being problematic.

 

Overdosing is not expected to be an unusual problem, but if one makes significant additions in this fashion, the alkalinity will take time to show up completely in the tank because the acetate takes time to be metabolized. Consequently, I’d wait a day after adding it to measure alkalinity. Calcium measurement won’t be similarly impacted. Tank salinity will not increase over time using calcium acetate.