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Clown79

New law on fish medication

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Clown79

Reef keeping here in Canada is vastly different than in the US.

We have only 36 million people here, so you can imagine how small the hobby is.

 

A reef show here has maybe 7 vendors. 

 

We don't have the large options to be choosy when shopping. Most provinces have a handful of stores, most of them don't ship.

 

The vast majority of the livestock sold here is not aquacultured.

 

So many hobbyists will need access to meds for their fish because they are coming from across the world and may possibly carry various parasites/bacterial issues.

 

 

Meds may not be something that many may depend on but it will make things very expensive and difficult for hobbyists.

Paying $65+/vet visit in the hope that the vet will prescribe meds for a fish, will be frustrating for many.

 

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Snow_Phoenix
27 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Reef keeping here in Canada is vastly different than in the US.

We have only 36 million people here, so you can imagine how small the hobby is.

 

A reef show here has maybe 7 vendors. 

 

We don't have the large options to be choosy when shopping. Most provinces have a handful of stores, most of them don't ship.

 

The vast majority of the livestock sold here is not aquacultured.

 

So many hobbyists will need access to meds for their fish because they are coming from across the world and may possibly carry various parasites/bacterial issues.

 

 

Meds may not be something that many may depend on but it will make things very expensive and difficult for hobbyists.

Paying $65+/vet visit in the hope that the vet will prescribe meds for a fish, will be frustrating for many.

 

Can you buy meds from overseas and get it shipped to you? Is that allowed? (As in, will it pass customs inspection)

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Clown79
42 minutes ago, Snow_Phoenix said:

Can you buy meds from overseas and get it shipped to you? Is that allowed? (As in, will it pass customs inspection)

No. The only real way is if the meds are approved to be sold in Canada without prescription. 

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mcarroll
8 hours ago, Tamberav said:

How does aquaculture relate to my 15-20 gallons of water?

An excellent question that can only really be answered by reading some of the stuff....along with some further googling or thread conversations as needed to get things explained a little along the way so you "get it".  (That's how I have to do it anyway.  😣☺️.) 

 

But I can tell you that aquaculture does relate...keeping ornamental fish in aquariums is part of their charter, so to speak...just considered one of five basic types of "RAS" or recirculating aquaculture system.  :)

 

I've added comments to a lot of the journal articles I've saved that should be more or less directly relevant to us, so reading those notes might help in some cases.

8 hours ago, Tamberav said:

Every time I put my fish through methods to eradicate disease, I had no issues.

The overarching purpose of any treatment is to re-establish the fish's own immune system....suppressing any excessive load of pathogens in the process...to the point that the animals natural immune system can function again.

 

So if you do all of it right, I'd say of course you didn't have issues. 😉

 

If you don't mind, tell me how what you do compares with the guidelines in the link below.  Sorry it's kinda long, but you can scan over some parts that obviously apply to non-aquarium categories of aquaculture and just dig into the parts that apply:

SRAC 4708: Biosecurity in Aquaculture, Part 2: Recirculating Aquaculture Systems

 

I'm curious what you find similar and what you find to be different from your practice.  (And if it gives you any new ideas.)

8 hours ago, Tamberav said:

The only ones that I purchased that may not have been exposed to med's was tank bred fish directly shipped from ORA and clowns directly bought from the breeder.

Retailers like those are clearly the way to go for anyone in your position....or especially for a newb in that position.  (A local option like that would be even better, obviously.)

 

(And after hitting save, I'm thinking we've veered off topic by a fair margin and maybe I should have PM'd......I can't un-post, but you're welcome to follow up with me via PM.   Sorry to the OP, but I clearly get carried away sometimes!! :) )

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mcarroll
5 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Paying $65+/vet visit in the hope that the vet will prescribe meds for a fish, will be frustrating for many.

I think part of the argument to doing the whole QT thing is that it's usually "worth it" even though it's expensive and difficult compared to the alternative of not QT'ing. 

 

In that light, another $65 to get the right med from someone qualified and able to determine that should be well worthwhile. 

 

It should be much more of a sure thing than shotgunning treatments at home without the aid of a vets knowledge, microscope, et al. 

 

It'll be interesting to see how the policy is implemented.

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Tamberav

I skimmed it but it looks like they use UV and ozone and still mention to QT. 

 

I don't really understand what you are trying to get at? Are you saying not to QT and just feed well and have low stress? Are you saying to QT but feed well and minimize stress?

 

I don't find QT tanks to be expensive. At least not on a nano scale.

 

My vet has no real knowledge of fish and doubt he would use a microscope. I would have be bring the fish in due to laws that he has to physically assess an animal in order to prescribe and then I would just ask for chloroquine phosphate and prazipro to basically cover all bases in one go besides infections. 

 

CP requires a prescription in the US but you can still buy it though question of purity exsists but I did use it to successfully treat ich. Not sure if Canada can buy it though or what.

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mcarroll
12 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

I don't really understand what you are trying to get at? Are you saying not to QT and just feed well and have low stress? Are you saying to QT but feed well and minimize stress?

You don't know how funny/coincidental that post is.  And I'm not 100% sure where the confusion is coming from, but I'll try to address it anyway as best I can.

 

Here's what I said...

47 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

The overarching purpose of any treatment is to re-establish the fish's own immune system....suppressing any excessive load of pathogens in the process...to the point that the animals natural immune system can function again.

 

So if you do all of it right, I'd say of course you didn't have issues. 😉

 

For the rest I was just saying to check out the article because I like it and it has a lot better info that most hobby guides while also sounding to me like it's mostly compatible with what you did.  (From what I can tell from your post.)  Wondered if you'd agree or have comments is all.

 

I said it like this:

50 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

If you don't mind, tell me how what you do compares with the guidelines in the link below.  Sorry it's kinda long, but you can scan over some parts that obviously apply to non-aquarium categories of aquaculture and just dig into the parts that apply:

SRAC 4708: Biosecurity in Aquaculture, Part 2: Recirculating Aquaculture Systems

 

I'm curious what you find similar and what you find to be different from your practice.  (And if it gives you any new ideas.)

Sorry I wasn't more clear...or if you're just not into it, that's okay...you must be happy enough doing what you're doing.  If so, thanks for following up anyway!  :)

 

(PM me if you want to next time....this is pretty off-topic in this thread and we'll probably go back and forth at least a few more times if we dig into this.  Still sorry to the thread and OP that I didn't switch to PM on the last leg of our mini-discussion rather than continuing to post here.)

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Clown79
3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I think part of the argument to doing the whole QT thing is that it's usually "worth it" even though it's expensive and difficult compared to the alternative of not QT'ing. 

 

In that light, another $65 to get the right med from someone qualified and able to determine that should be well worthwhile. 

 

It should be much more of a sure thing than shotgunning treatments at home without the aid of a vets knowledge, microscope, et al. 

 

It'll be interesting to see how the policy is implemented.

Well the law is already implemented. It's simply illegal for any store to sell meds.

 

It will be extremely interesting, I suspect people will most often allow the fish to die because most vets(I know of 1) don't specialize in fish care. 

 

Not to mention the increase in cost for prescription meds. 

 

The sad Reality is buying a new fish will cost less than a vets visit and medication here.

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mcarroll
2 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Well the law is already implemented. It's simply illegal for any store to sell meds.

Law...simple?  Hahahahahaha.

 

Can you post a link to it?

 

2 hours ago, Clown79 said:

The sad Reality is buying a new fish will cost less than a vets visit and medication here.

 One of the common grapes I hear from areas outside the US, including in this thread, is that you guys have terrible prices and very few suppliers. Sounds to me like you guys have great prices on fish if you can have anything for under 65 bucks.

 

Maybe the way to think about it is that you can get all of your fist checked on the same "visit".

 

It's not like a prescription you get from them has to be used on only one fish.

 

And it's not like only one fish gets sick.

 

Maybe this makes more sense than we're thinking of?

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Clown79
5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Law...simple?  Hahahahahaha.

 

Can you post a link to it?

 

 One of the common grapes I hear from areas outside the US, including in this thread, is that you guys have terrible prices and very few suppliers. Sounds to me like you guys have great prices on fish if you can have anything for under 65 bucks.

 

Maybe the way to think about it is that you can get all of your fist checked on the same "visit".

 

It's not like a prescription you get from them has to be used on only one fish.

 

And it's not like only one fish gets sick.

 

Maybe this makes more sense than we're thinking of?

It's pretty simple. All antibiotics that can be used on livestock will require prescription via veterinarian care. It's a federal law. It's not complicated.

 

All the stores were selling off and removing all medication from the shelves and there are notices everywhere regarding the changes.

 

Its ridiculous for someone to pay the price for a vet visit and meds when the vast majority of vets don't treat fish. This also means someone may have to miss work to drive a couple hours to a vet who does work with fish.

 

I love my fish but to miss work, drive a few hrs, cost of gas, cost of visit, and then meds, that's a lot more than the average $15-30 fish.

 

How about freshwater fish that are even cheaper?

 

How about when it takes a week or more to get an appointment? Your fish won't even live long enough to get treated.

 

 

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mcarroll
12 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

It's pretty simple. All antibiotics that can be used on livestock will require prescription via veterinarian care. It's a federal law. It's not complicated.

I've never heard of a federal law that was simple...but maybe Canada is really different from the US that way.  😉

 

For what it's worth I just tried googling for "canada pharmaceutical law" "canada medication pets law" "canada medication news" and a couple more variants and didn't find any postings about this at all.

 

Can you please link me to something that talks about this in some detail?  Did the law have a name or something?  Anything else I can search by?

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Clown79

https://www.cahi-icsa.ca/antimicrobial-stewardship

 

Simplicity of the law is a moot point.

 

you need a prescription for the vast majority of antibiotics for humans and livestock. There is no way around it unless someone wants to break the law.

 

How many small or large aquarium business owners will want a federal charge, go to a federal prison for illegal distribution of a medication?

 

 

Federal law- any antibiotic that can be used for humans in categories 1,11,111 can only be sold via prescription. 

 

Basically, if it's not approved by Health Canada for OTC sales, you will require a prescription for human consumption (always the law here) but now all livestock as well.

 

Most antibiotics require a prescription here, fluconazole is 1 that doesn't. 

 

Provincial law- each province  will determine where the prescription can be filled. Alberta may allow the script to be processed anywhere whereas Ontario, may only allow it via a veterinary clinic.

 

 

Canada law is different than US

There's a slew of OTC meds and prescription meds that aren't approved for sale in Canada that are in the US.

 

The point of my thread was for education purposes. There are Canadians on here that may not be aware of the changes

 

 

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squamptonbc
On 11/13/2018 at 12:30 AM, Clown79 said:

I just found out that here in Canada as of Dec, all medications for fish disease treatment will no longer be sold in stores.

 

Hobbyists will be required to get a prescription from a vet...super inconvenient and expensive. 

Assuming you can find a vet. I called 45 vets in my area and all said no. I would be willing to pay a vet and get a RX but issue is few few vets will treat fish let alone write a prescription. 

 

Fact is very few vets in Canada will treat fish and most people in the hobby will likely not live near a vet who does so even for those willing to take their fish to a vet, chances are they wont have access to a vet who is willing to treat fish and has knowledge in treating fish.

 

 

 

 

 

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Tamberav

My vet would write me a Rx but I have to bring the fish in. Pretty sure they are required to see the animal in person to prescribe medications. 

 

He treats my cats/dogs though so he knows me. I think it would be a lot harder if you had to just find one for your fish only.

 

I also printed out as much information on treatment of fish and the medications I was asking for to give it to him.

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Clown79
1 hour ago, Tamberav said:

My vet would write me a Rx but I have to bring the fish in. Pretty sure they are required to see the animal in person to prescribe medications. 

 

He treats my cats/dogs though so he knows me. I think it would be a lot harder if you had to just find one for your fish only.

 

I also printed out as much information on treatment of fish and the medications I was asking for to give it to him.

It's the same here. They have to see the animal to prescribe. There is a vet that works with fish here but he is in another city.

 

I don't think mine deals with pets outside the standard, I could ask but I still would have to pay $85 for the visit then the prescription.

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Clown79
1 hour ago, squamptonbc said:

Assuming you can find a vet. I called 45 vets in my area and all said no. I would be willing to pay a vet and get a RX but issue is few few vets will treat fish let alone write a prescription. 

 

Fact is very few vets in Canada will treat fish and most people in the hobby will likely not live near a vet who does so even for those willing to take their fish to a vet, chances are they wont have access to a vet who is willing to treat fish and has knowledge in treating fish.

 

 

 

 

 

exactly.

 

Vets aren't going to risk their license prescribing meds for an animal they haven't seen or even know how to treat.

 

There is one in Cambridge On who treats fish and the reason why - he deals with stores and treating their fish plus he is a hobbyist.

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squamptonbc

Learned today one of the nearby city's to me when they passed their new animal bylaw last year, they banned all saltwater fish, they don't seem to be enforcing it yet but its in the bylaw so now technically not allowed in that city to keep saltwater fish.

 

 

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Clown79
1 hour ago, squamptonbc said:

Learned today one of the nearby city's to me when they passed their new animal bylaw last year, they banned all saltwater fish, they don't seem to be enforcing it yet but its in the bylaw so now technically not allowed in that city to keep saltwater fish.

 

 

I wonder why?

 

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squamptonbc
51 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

I wonder why?

 

Nobody seems to know, normal bylaw for the most part then at the very bottom under prohibited animals list which some make total sense, but the at very bottom it says "and all saltwater fish." As of now it doesn't appear they are actively enforcing it as the 1 and only store in that city who sells saltwater fish is still selling, but the fact its on the books is concerning.

 

Here is the list

 

LIST OF PROHIBITED ANIMALS

1. all nonhuman primates

2. all felidae, except the domestic cat

3. all canidae, except the domestic Dog

4. all ursidae (bears)

5. all proboscidea (elephants)

6. all pinnipedia (seals, walrus)

7. all marsupials

8. all edentates (anteaters)

9. all xenartha (such as sloths, armadillos, and tamanduas)

10. all monotremata (spiny anteater and platypus)

11. all venomous or poisonous reptiles and amphibians

12. all reptiles and amphibians over 2 metres adult size

13. all venomous or poisonous invertebrates (such as black widow spiders, tarantulas, and blueringed octopus)

14. all ungulates, except the bison and the domestic breeds of cow, goat, sheep, pig, horse, mule, donkey, ass, llama, and alpaca

15. all hyenidae (hyenas)

16. all hyracoidean (hyraxes)

17. all erinaceidae (tenrecs and hedgehogs)

18. all mustelidae (skunks, weasels, otters, wild ferrets), except the domestic ferret

19. all procyonidae (raccoons, coatimundis)

20. all viverridae (civets and genets)

21. all herpestidae (mongooses)

22. all cetacea (whales, porpoises, dolphins)

23. all rodentia, except the hamster, gerbil, guinea pig, domestic mouse, and domestic rat

24. all chiroptera (bats), colugos (flying lemurs), and scandentia (treeshrews)

25. all lagomorphs (rabbits and hare), except the domestic rabbit

26. all birds except the domestic quail, pheasant, pigeon, chicken, duck, goose and turkey, plus the budgie, cockatiel, lovebird, finch, and canary; and

27. all saltwater fish

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Friendly
27 minutes ago, squamptonbc said:

Nobody seems to know, normal bylaw for the most part then at the very bottom under prohibited animals list which some make total sense, but the at very bottom it says "and all saltwater fish." As of now it doesn't appear they are actively enforcing it as the 1 and only store in that city who sells saltwater fish is still selling, but the fact its on the books is concerning.

 

Here is the list

 

LIST OF PROHIBITED ANIMALS

1. all nonhuman primates

2. all felidae, except the domestic cat

3. all canidae, except the domestic Dog

4. all ursidae (bears)

5. all proboscidea (elephants)

6. all pinnipedia (seals, walrus)

7. all marsupials

8. all edentates (anteaters)

9. all xenartha (such as sloths, armadillos, and tamanduas)

10. all monotremata (spiny anteater and platypus)

11. all venomous or poisonous reptiles and amphibians

12. all reptiles and amphibians over 2 metres adult size

13. all venomous or poisonous invertebrates (such as black widow spiders, tarantulas, and blueringed octopus)

14. all ungulates, except the bison and the domestic breeds of cow, goat, sheep, pig, horse, mule, donkey, ass, llama, and alpaca

15. all hyenidae (hyenas)

16. all hyracoidean (hyraxes)

17. all erinaceidae (tenrecs and hedgehogs)

18. all mustelidae (skunks, weasels, otters, wild ferrets), except the domestic ferret

19. all procyonidae (raccoons, coatimundis)

20. all viverridae (civets and genets)

21. all herpestidae (mongooses)

22. all cetacea (whales, porpoises, dolphins)

23. all rodentia, except the hamster, gerbil, guinea pig, domestic mouse, and domestic rat

24. all chiroptera (bats), colugos (flying lemurs), and scandentia (treeshrews)

25. all lagomorphs (rabbits and hare), except the domestic rabbit

26. all birds except the domestic quail, pheasant, pigeon, chicken, duck, goose and turkey, plus the budgie, cockatiel, lovebird, finch, and canary; and

27. all saltwater fish

probably someone having a blond moment worrying that if wild fish released into their lakes and ponds, they'll take over and decimate native populations.  ROFLMAO!!!

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Friendly
On 11/13/2018 at 12:30 AM, Clown79 said:

I just found out that here in Canada as of Dec, all medications for fish disease treatment will no longer be sold in stores.

 

Hobbyists will be required to get a prescription from a vet...super inconvenient and expensive. 

can you post a source article that talks about this?

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Clown79
9 hours ago, squamptonbc said:

Nobody seems to know, normal bylaw for the most part then at the very bottom under prohibited animals list which some make total sense, but the at very bottom it says "and all saltwater fish." As of now it doesn't appear they are actively enforcing it as the 1 and only store in that city who sells saltwater fish is still selling, but the fact its on the books is concerning.

 

Here is the list

 

LIST OF PROHIBITED ANIMALS

1. all nonhuman primates

2. all felidae, except the domestic cat

3. all canidae, except the domestic Dog

4. all ursidae (bears)

5. all proboscidea (elephants)

6. all pinnipedia (seals, walrus)

7. all marsupials

8. all edentates (anteaters)

9. all xenartha (such as sloths, armadillos, and tamanduas)

10. all monotremata (spiny anteater and platypus)

11. all venomous or poisonous reptiles and amphibians

12. all reptiles and amphibians over 2 metres adult size

13. all venomous or poisonous invertebrates (such as black widow spiders, tarantulas, and blueringed octopus)

14. all ungulates, except the bison and the domestic breeds of cow, goat, sheep, pig, horse, mule, donkey, ass, llama, and alpaca

15. all hyenidae (hyenas)

16. all hyracoidean (hyraxes)

17. all erinaceidae (tenrecs and hedgehogs)

18. all mustelidae (skunks, weasels, otters, wild ferrets), except the domestic ferret

19. all procyonidae (raccoons, coatimundis)

20. all viverridae (civets and genets)

21. all herpestidae (mongooses)

22. all cetacea (whales, porpoises, dolphins)

23. all rodentia, except the hamster, gerbil, guinea pig, domestic mouse, and domestic rat

24. all chiroptera (bats), colugos (flying lemurs), and scandentia (treeshrews)

25. all lagomorphs (rabbits and hare), except the domestic rabbit

26. all birds except the domestic quail, pheasant, pigeon, chicken, duck, goose and turkey, plus the budgie, cockatiel, lovebird, finch, and canary; and

27. all saltwater fish

A lot of places have bylaws not allowing certain pets for  various reasons.

 

Turtles here were illegal for a long time due to Salmonella risks.

 

Theres also the concern of over fishing, depletion of species in the ocean. 

 

 

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Mark2442

This is pathetic, I have had my tank running for 20 years, I have saved many of my fish from disease and death from medications. I have a silver dollar that’s been with me for 15 years and he needs antibiotics which I now can’t get from the store. I’ve called 5 and all but one said they can’t prescribe meds for fish since they have no experience with fish. One vet said I have to bring the fish in and they weren’t in for a few days. So my 15 year old fish has to die a slow deaths because of the Canadian government... losers

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Clown79
On 6/30/2019 at 7:40 AM, Mark2442 said:

This is pathetic, I have had my tank running for 20 years, I have saved many of my fish from disease and death from medications. I have a silver dollar that’s been with me for 15 years and he needs antibiotics which I now can’t get from the store. I’ve called 5 and all but one said they can’t prescribe meds for fish since they have no experience with fish. One vet said I have to bring the fish in and they weren’t in for a few days. So my 15 year old fish has to die a slow deaths because of the Canadian government... losers

It was a really bad move especially since it apparently started because of farming/livestock being medicated without seeing a vet.

 

 

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Tamberav
On 6/30/2019 at 6:40 AM, Mark2442 said:

This is pathetic, I have had my tank running for 20 years, I have saved many of my fish from disease and death from medications. I have a silver dollar that’s been with me for 15 years and he needs antibiotics which I now can’t get from the store. I’ve called 5 and all but one said they can’t prescribe meds for fish since they have no experience with fish. One vet said I have to bring the fish in and they weren’t in for a few days. So my 15 year old fish has to die a slow deaths because of the Canadian government... losers

wow, so sad 😞 I would try and make the water super clean and feed high quality foods (live?) and selcon in hopes that he can fight it off. Silver dollar is a freshwater fish? Not sure if some salt helps with infections or fungal, maybe if it was external. 

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