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Clown79

New law on fish medication

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Clown79

I just found out that here in Canada as of Dec, all medications for fish disease treatment will no longer be sold in stores.

 

Hobbyists will be required to get a prescription from a vet...super inconvenient and expensive. 

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vlangel
2 hours ago, Clown79 said:

I just found out that here in Canada as of Dec, all medications for fish disease treatment will no longer be sold in stores.

 

Hobbyists will be required to get a prescription from a vet...super inconvenient and expensive. 

O my, that is terrible news for Canadian seahorse keepers!  Antibiotics are a must to have on hand.

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Tamberav

Holy crap..why?

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Tamberav

I guess hypo and tank transfer are about to become real popupar. Don't help for flukes though...time to stock up on powders and store in a dark place?

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specore
5 hours ago, Clown79 said:

I just found out that here in Canada as of Dec, all medications for fish disease treatment will no longer be sold in stores.

 

Hobbyists will be required to get a prescription from a vet...super inconvenient and expensive. 

Good lord.  This is the problem with government, making laws for the sake of making laws.  

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OPtasia

.... meanwhile, behind the facade of this innocent looking Toronto fish store....   "Psst, hey buddy. Hey pal, listen. Come here. I got what you need. Praziquantel? Furan 2? Malachite green? I got you, fam."

 

Salmon-cocaine-MAIN.thumb.jpg.72b970be1a301c01fd3638becd07d9cb.jpg

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Humblefish

If true, this is absolutely ridiculous. Some are always going to abuse, but excessive rules & regulations for all only leads to one thing...

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Clown79

I have heard that this is being implemented due to people buying it and using it for themselves.

 

I don't know if I believe that being the cause because we have public health care, you can get prescriptions easily.

 

I'm not sure I believe ppl are buying these types of meds to have a good time- antibiotics and good time...um ya there are other choices and 1 that's legal here.

 

 

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Clown79
31 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

If true, this is absolutely ridiculous. Some are always going to abuse, but excessive rules & regulations for all only leads to one thing...

It is true. Documents listed everywhere advising aquarium hobbyists of the change.

 

It sucks!

43 minutes ago, OPtasia said:

.... meanwhile, behind the facade of this innocent looking Toronto fish store....   "Psst, hey buddy. Hey pal, listen. Come here. I got what you need. Praziquantel? Furan 2? Malachite green? I got you, fam."

 

Salmon-cocaine-MAIN.thumb.jpg.72b970be1a301c01fd3638becd07d9cb.jpg

Lmao. 

 

 

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Tamberav
2 hours ago, Clown79 said:

I have heard that this is being implemented due to people buying it and using it for themselves.

 

I don't know if I believe that being the cause because we have public health care, you can get prescriptions easily.

 

I'm not sure I believe ppl are buying these types of meds to have a good time- antibiotics and good time...um ya there are other choices and 1 that's legal here.

 

 

Oh yeah I saw reviews of people using it because they can't afford to go to the doctor but that's America ?? 

 

Looks like you getting punished for our health care. 

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Frag Factory

Might be a good time to stockpile, especially for clubs. This is terrible.

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specore

"Well, uh.. it hurts when he swallows. Expecially when he drinks orange juice. (Vet gives him a look) I mean, uh.. dog food.. juice."

 

Image result for kramer dog meds

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Clown79
4 hours ago, Tamberav said:

Oh yeah I saw reviews of people using it because they can't afford to go to the doctor but that's America ?? 

 

Looks like you getting punished for our health care. 

Apparently ppl here are doing the same thing and overdosed. That's coming from store employees so who knows the real cause of the ban.

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slowngreen

Better stock up!

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OPtasia

Me: (explaining to vet why I need antibiotics for zoapox)

 

Vet: 1753099348_fishdoc.png.497cf4975db43ca27103568f9af96c07.png

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WV Reefer
On 11/13/2018 at 3:30 AM, Clown79 said:

I just found out that here in Canada as of Dec, all medications for fish disease treatment will no longer be sold in stores.

 

Hobbyists will be required to get a prescription from a vet...super inconvenient and expensive. 

Same rule for farmers in Canada now.........they have to go to a vet that “knows the animal” to have antibiotics prescribed for their livestock............to help prevent antimicrobial resistance.

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OPtasia

Who knew cipro was one of the eleven herbs and spices.

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mcarroll
On 11/14/2018 at 12:19 PM, OPtasia said:

Who knew cipro was one of the eleven herbs and spices.

It's interesting (to say the least) to see how dependent some folks are on meds.

 

As if it wasn't already "time" before, now it's time to get serious about your fish care abilities to eliminate the vast bulk of the "need" for meds!!!

 

Reducing stress reduces the incidence AND severity of disease.   

 

There are ALL KINDS OF WAYS that we needlessly stress out our animals that we can cease.

 

Stocking too fast, stocking too soon, stocking too many, stocking the wrong animals for the tank, stocking the wrong animals together, feeding inappropriate foods, over-medicating, pre-medicating, etc. 

 

The list is long. 

 

SRAC 0474: The Role of Stress in Fish Disease is a great guide to understanding the basics.  Tho opening lines...

 

Quote

The environmental conditions and handling practices of aquaculture can be stressful to fish. Fish reared in commercial aquaculture are confined to ponds, pens, tanks, or raceways and are routinely stressed by intensive production management practices.

 

Same applies to us and our fish as the fish "reared in commercial aquaculture":  The environmental conditions we provide and handling practices we use can be stressful.   Read the whole doc for lots more! :)

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mcarroll
On 11/13/2018 at 6:07 AM, vlangel said:

O my, that is terrible news for Canadian seahorse keepers!  Antibiotics are a must to have on hand.

The available docs I can find on Google Scholar seem to indicate that this kind of thinking belongs in the 1990's.

 

Quote

We found that prior to the 1990s, seahorse aquaculture was plagued by problems with disease and feeding. In the late 1990s and early 2000s there was considerable expansion in the number and size of aquaculture operations and the number of species in culture. 

 

According to Culturing the oceanic seahorse, Hippocampus kuda (PDF link) you should be able to get a success rate of almost 100% at the nursery stage and 70+% in the growout stage just by feeding the best food.

 

If you're still dependent on antibiotics to produce, then there are probably some improvements you can make so you won't be dependent in the future.   

 

(If you're a breeder I'd like to discuss this more outside of this thread...can you PM me?) 

 

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Tamberav

Stress is a factor but many lfs run enough copper to hide disease but not cure it. The LFS is a stressful place and then a stressful ride home and now the copper is gone and Bam...

 

The fishes immune system is already possibly lower by the time it makes it to our house so how do propose we eliminate stress? It doesn't seem like we have much control on the handling of fish before we purchase it.

 

At least for ich..people could employ TTM which requires no meds and Brook or velvet tend to kill so fast often people are to late treating anyways.

 

Personally I don't do the feed good food approach...or rather I feed good but don't rely on it. I have had prolonged power outages and severe temp swings from blizzards and moved all my fish 13 hours to another state and no disease ever showed up even though they were very stressed. The disease wasn't there in the first place to cause any issues.

 

I like ich eradication over ich management.

 

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mcarroll
29 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

I like ich eradication over ich management.

A pair of dubious concepts, both originating within the hobby and not well-supported in the literature. 

 

Nobody assigns undue value to "ich management" though - it's a term that was invented by the same hobby folks who coined "ich eradication" out of thin air.  "Ich management" has no real definition other than "not ich eradication".

 

Folks in aquaculture don't believe in "eradication" that I can tell and neither do I.  Pathogens, like anything else alive, are extremely capable of "finding a way".   "Ich eradication" doesn't even fully account for ich's capabilities, let alone any other pathogens.

 

Aquaculture and science use all tools and they use them appropriately - especially dealing with nutrition and stress in regards to pathogens. 

 

It would be instructive for most hobbyists to see/read how aquaculture uses meds and other tools differently that the "eradicationists".  Tools like microscopes are integral, but somehow never get used (other than a few people I know who ironically get placed in the "ich management" camp by the eradicationists). 

 

Generally aquaculture folks have LOTS more money tied up in their endeavor than we do.  On top of that, it's not play/hobby money either - these folks operate on an investment for profit.  Not that we aren't serious in many cases, but they and their info are on a different level of serious in most cases.  Everything - including the effects of fish stress - goes to their ROI.  ROI = fish survival AND fish quality.  That's a motivation I can understand...and probably trust.

 

With immune systems, there's nothing to debate or "believe" like there is with the eradication theory....all fish have an immune system...and it's a pretty well-studied thing.  Make use of it.  :)

 

33 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

Stress is a factor but

This is how nearly everyone seems to view fish stress inside our hobby, so I understand where you're coming from. 

 

Most of the emphasis goes on the "but" and the details on stress go out the window.

 

Of course you have to deal with the fish in front of you....aquaculture folks do too.  That's our responsibility when we buy sick fish.

 

The way you deal with the kind of places you mentioned is preventatively - by not buying from them.   Using sub-therapeutic levels of copper is looked down on in fish retail for a good reason.  Patronizing a place that does it encourages the practice AS WELL AS the bad results that follow (sick or dead fish, excessive med usage, etc) . 

 

1 hour ago, Tamberav said:

The disease wasn't there in the first place to cause any issues.

Not to put you on the spot for no reason, but how was this verified?  

 

"No disease" is visually indistinguishable from healthy fish or even from immune fish.  (Not identical.)   

 

Unless it was verified explicitly somehow (e.g. sampling and microscope use) you were just guessing like the rest of us....which adds a lot of uncertainty to statements like that.

 

Based on the evidence so far I'd place the reason for success on the health immune systems of your fish.

 

If you're into some reading beyond the Stress guide I posted above I'd suggest going through some of the journal articles I've collected and added notes to under the Stress section of my blog.  The amount of info we routinely ignore on the topic is huge, and out of no better reason than lack of familiarity with it....too much to post at once.  There's innate immunity, social immunity, ecological effects and lots more that matter tremendously, but simply do not enter the discussion in the hobby.  (Or not nearly often enough.)

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vlangel
2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

The available docs I can find on Google Scholar seem to indicate that this kind of thinking belongs in the 1990's.

 

 

According to Culturing the oceanic seahorse, Hippocampus kuda (PDF link) you should be able to get a success rate of almost 100% at the nursery stage and 70+% in the growout stage just by feeding the best food.

 

If you're still dependent on antibiotics to produce, then there are probably some improvements you can make so you won't be dependent in the future.   

 

(If you're a breeder I'd like to discuss this more outside of this thread...can you PM me?) 

 

I am not a breeder, just a hobbyist.  I did raise fry once when I first got seahorses and I raised 15 out of 22 to 4-6 mos. which at that point I sold them.  I did not use any antibiotics for the fry, only probiotics.  Raising fry was way too much work and then I had the stress of trying to find responsible aquarists to buy them.  No thank you!

 

However occasionally one of my 3 adult ponies will show up with a skin abrasion or puncture and I always immediately move them to a HT and treat with either Furan 2 or Triple Sulfa.  It does not happen as much now that I have simplified their tank with a lot less LR in the display.  My display is all natural however and I think some times they get scraped by a reef creature spinning a home.  I have even injured my hands that way.

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mcarroll
8 minutes ago, vlangel said:

I did raise fry once when I first got seahorses and I raised 15 out of 22 to 4-6 mos.

Sounds like you're hitting the modern percentage, so it was a success!  No call for antibiotics.

 

Treatment for injuries isn't in the same category of things, so it's very possible that antibiotics were called for there.

 

(It's not specific to seahorses, but CIR 84/FA084: Use of Antibiotics in Ornamental Fish Aquaculture might be interesting for future reference if you've never seen it.  It's surprisingly complete.)

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vlangel
2 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Sounds like you're hitting the modern percentage, so it was a success!  No call for antibiotics.

 

Treatment for injuries isn't in the same category of things, so it's very possible that antibiotics were called for there.

 

(It's not specific to seahorses, but CIR 84/FA084: Use of Antibiotics in Ornamental Fish Aquaculture might be interesting for future reference if you've never seen it.  It's surprisingly complete.)

0k, thanks!

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Tamberav
1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

A pair of dubious concepts, both originating within the hobby and not well-supported in the literature. 

 

Nobody assigns undue value to "ich management" though - it's a term that was invented by the same hobby folks who coined "ich eradication" out of thin air.  "Ich management" has no real definition other than "not ich eradication".

 

Folks in aquaculture don't believe in "eradication" that I can tell and neither do I.  Pathogens, like anything else alive, are extremely capable of "finding a way".   "Ich eradication" doesn't even fully account for ich's capabilities, let alone any other pathogens.

 

Aquaculture and science use all tools and they use them appropriately - especially dealing with nutrition and stress in regards to pathogens. 

 

It would be instructive for most hobbyists to see/read how aquaculture uses meds and other tools differently that the "eradicationists".  Tools like microscopes are integral, but somehow never get used (other than a few people I know who ironically get placed in the "ich management" camp by the eradicationists). 

 

Generally aquaculture folks have LOTS more money tied up in their endeavor than we do.  On top of that, it's not play/hobby money either - these folks operate on an investment for profit.  Not that we aren't serious in many cases, but they and their info are on a different level of serious in most cases.  Everything - including the effects of fish stress - goes to their ROI.  ROI = fish survival AND fish quality.  That's a motivation I can understand...and probably trust.

 

With immune systems, there's nothing to debate or "believe" like there is with the eradication theory....all fish have an immune system...and it's a pretty well-studied thing.  Make use of it.  🙂

 

This is how nearly everyone seems to view fish stress inside our hobby, so I understand where you're coming from. 

 

Most of the emphasis goes on the "but" and the details on stress go out the window.

 

Of course you have to deal with the fish in front of you....aquaculture folks do too.  That's our responsibility when we buy sick fish.

 

The way you deal with the kind of places you mentioned is preventatively - by not buying from them.   Using sub-therapeutic levels of copper is looked down on in fish retail for a good reason.  Patronizing a place that does it encourages the practice AS WELL AS the bad results that follow (sick or dead fish, excessive med usage, etc) . 

 

Not to put you on the spot for no reason, but how was this verified?  

 

"No disease" is visually indistinguishable from healthy fish or even from immune fish.  (Not identical.)   

 

Unless it was verified explicitly somehow (e.g. sampling and microscope use) you were just guessing like the rest of us....which adds a lot of uncertainty to statements like that.

 

Based on the evidence so far I'd place the reason for success on the health immune systems of your fish.

 

If you're into some reading beyond the Stress guide I posted above I'd suggest going through some of the journal articles I've collected and added notes to under the Stress section of my blog.  The amount of info we routinely ignore on the topic is huge, and out of no better reason than lack of familiarity with it....too much to post at once.  There's innate immunity, social immunity, ecological effects and lots more that matter tremendously, but simply do not enter the discussion in the hobby.  (Or not nearly often enough.)

 

How does aquaculture relate to my 15-20 gallons of water?

 

I didn't use a microscope so I can't tell you with 100% certainty but all my fish were put through TTM, CP, or copper before being added to the tank and corals came from coral only system and the snails came from snail only systems. Actually I was more slack with my recent tank and already regret it as I am dealing with flukes. The fish can survive it sure, they appear healthy but I don't want my dog to have fleas but survive either.

 

Every time I put my fish through methods to eradicate disease, I had no issues. Every time I slack I eventually pay the price. Maybe nano's are just more stressful for fish in general but a nano is what I have so I employ methods that work with it.

 

Every LFS here uses medications and so does Diver's Den. The only ones that I purchased that may not have been exposed to med's was tank bred fish directly shipped from ORA and clowns directly bought from the breeder.

 

These are my options and probably most peoples options. So I have to base my methods on reality not what is ideal. 

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