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Cyano keeps coming back the next day


paulsz

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Tell us about your lighting.  Your lack of coral growth may have more to do with it.  IMO, folks are using too much blue, which looks fantastic, but stunts coral growth.  You need several hours of full spectrum per day.

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4 hours ago, sarcophyton said:

Tell us about your lighting.  Your lack of coral growth may have more to do with it.  IMO, folks are using too much blue, which looks fantastic, but stunts coral growth.  You need several hours of full spectrum per day.

I have an AI prime HD over a 35 cube (20" each side). 

 

Runs for 10 hrs a day, ramping up blues for first hour, then the other colours come into play for another 2 hrs before everything reaches full intensity (at full, 80% blue, 70% purple, 45% whites and 7% red/green).

 

Full intensity lasts for 4 hrs and then starts ramping down in the same order as the ramp up 

 

 

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I am no lighting expert, but I would drop your feedings back down and boost your white percentage, at least during the full intensity portion of the day.   Another thing you might try on the cyano front is to increase current flow, at least for a portion of the day.  

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1 hour ago, sarcophyton said:

I am no lighting expert, but I would drop your feedings back down and boost your white percentage, at least during the full intensity portion of the day.   Another thing you might try on the cyano front is to increase current flow, at least for a portion of the day.  

I will try to slowly move whites up. As for the cyano, I'm pretty sure it's Dinos now that I've looked at it with a microscope

 

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I've got one word for you....Chemiclean, honestly this stuff is incredible! 

 

44931219325_bcf0db653c.jpg1454528-center-1 by kenpau01, on Flickr

 

I'd been battling cyano for a couple of months, used this stuff and it was gone 48 hours later, haven't seen a sign of it since! The water has been so clean afterwards that I'm going to make it part of my monthly maintenance.

Here's a before and after, photos taken within about 2 days of each other...

 

43992691230_e9b017fd41_c.jpgone by kenpau01, on Flickr

 

43992692050_3f986dfa45_c.jpgtwo by kenpau01, on Flickr

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5 hours ago, sarcophyton said:

If you haven't seen a sign of cyano since, why would you use chemiclean monthly ?

The water was absolutely crystal clear afterwards. It does actually say in the instructions that it can be used as part of a maintenance program. It has no harmful effects on the system other than depleting oxygen but the results were incredible!

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4 minutes ago, Perthreefer said:

The water was absolutely crystal clear afterwards. It does actually say in the instructions that it can be used as part of a maintenance program. It has no harmful effects on the system other than depleting oxygen but the results were incredible!

Did you leave your skimmer on, or do anything to help with oxygenation?

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12 hours ago, Perthreefer said:

I've got one word for you....Chemiclean, honestly this stuff is incredible! 

 

44931219325_bcf0db653c.jpg1454528-center-1 by kenpau01, on Flickr

 

I'd been battling cyano for a couple of months, used this stuff and it was gone 48 hours later, haven't seen a sign of it since! The water has been so clean afterwards that I'm going to make it part of my monthly maintenance.

Here's a before and after, photos taken within about 2 days of each other...

 

43992691230_e9b017fd41_c.jpgone by kenpau01, on Flickr

 

43992692050_3f986dfa45_c.jpgtwo by kenpau01, on Flickr

You have to be very careful dosing chemicals.  I used Chemiclean as a last resort to get rid of stubborn, persistent cyano that wouldn't go away no matter what and was made worse by water changes.  Despite dosing rather conservatively, I nearly lost my walking dendro (was dead up top and skin sloughed off the sides).  I never recommend chemical cleaners unless nothing else has worked, and would not make it a regular part of maintenance.

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4 hours ago, sarcophyton said:

Did you leave your skimmer on, or do anything to help with oxygenation?

 

I turned the skimmer off but had an air stone and plenty of flow running in the display.

1 hour ago, Lula_Mae said:

You have to be very careful dosing chemicals.  I used Chemiclean as a last resort to get rid of stubborn, persistent cyano that wouldn't go away no matter what and was made worse by water changes.  Despite dosing rather conservatively, I nearly lost my walking dendro (was dead up top and skin sloughed off the sides).  I never recommend chemical cleaners unless nothing else has worked, and would not make it a regular part of maintenance.

You do have to be careful dosing chemicals, however almost any time people have issues is because they do not follow instructions and do not notice warning signs.

With Chemiclean you HAVE to increase oxygen levels, I have read on forums people saying it doesn't work and they lost fish etc, when asked what they did it turns out they didn't increase oxygen as it says in the instructions. Chemiclean strips oxygen from the tank so an airstone is vital along with good flow.

You also have to monitor your livestock, I saw no detrimental signs at all, however if I'd notice heavy breathing in any fish, no polyp extension in corals, my clam not opening etc I'd have immediately done a 50% water change. As it happened I had no issues at all and the product worked very well, for that reason I've got no worries about using it as part of my maintenance. Most of us use Phosban/carbon etc, it's no different than using those products if used correctly.

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2 hours ago, Perthreefer said:

 

I turned the skimmer off but had an air stone and plenty of flow running in the display.

You do have to be careful dosing chemicals, however almost any time people have issues is because they do not follow instructions and do not notice warning signs.

With Chemiclean you HAVE to increase oxygen levels, I have read on forums people saying it doesn't work and they lost fish etc, when asked what they did it turns out they didn't increase oxygen as it says in the instructions. Chemiclean strips oxygen from the tank so an airstone is vital along with good flow.

You also have to monitor your livestock, I saw no detrimental signs at all, however if I'd notice heavy breathing in any fish, no polyp extension in corals, my clam not opening etc I'd have immediately done a 50% water change. As it happened I had no issues at all and the product worked very well, for that reason I've got no worries about using it as part of my maintenance. Most of us use Phosban/carbon etc, it's no different than using those products if used correctly.

I had added an airline with air pump at a vigorous bubble rate, so failure to increase oxygen was not the problem here. I simply found that one of my tank's inhabitants was very sensitive to it, and I'm not the first. 

 

Using carbon and such as part of chemical filtration is very different from using chemicals like vibrant, chemiclean, etc. Just because they can be used as part of a maintenance routine doesn't mean it's a good idea or necessary and that it shouldn't be done with caution. Non-chemical methods should ideally always be exhausted first before resorting to chemical methods. I'm glad you had no issues using it, but your experience is not universal and chemical interventions should always be recommended cautiously because sometimes they interact poorly with the life in our tanks. 

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3 hours ago, Lula_Mae said:

I had added an airline with air pump at a vigorous bubble rate, so failure to increase oxygen was not the problem here. I simply found that one of my tank's inhabitants was very sensitive to it, and I'm not the first. 

 

Using carbon and such as part of chemical filtration is very different from using chemicals like vibrant, chemiclean, etc. Just because they can be used as part of a maintenance routine doesn't mean it's a good idea or necessary and that it shouldn't be done with caution. Non-chemical methods should ideally always be exhausted first before resorting to chemical methods. I'm glad you had no issues using it, but your experience is not universal and chemical interventions should always be recommended cautiously because sometimes they interact poorly with the life in our tanks. 

I definitely appreciate what you're saying here. I wasn't implying at all that you had not followed the instructions. With everything in reefkeeping when things go wrong after a little investigation it tends to be the case that people haven't followed instructions, however that is definitely not always the case. As an example I have had horrible experiences with the tank transfer method and more sensitive species, powder tangs etc. That doesn't mean TTF isn't a valid method, just that it's not a generic cure for everything. Same can be said for adding chemicals to the tank, there are many different occasions when chemical methods are employed, they do not always have good outcomes (as you know). The thing with forums is people are quick to comment a bad experience but slow to comment a good experience so it's difficult to gauge the effectiveness of a particular product. I agree that non chemical methods should be explored first, I would stop short of not recommending chemical methods that have been proven though and if a reefkeeper has had particular success with a product I see no harm in continuing to use that product in a responsible and methodical way.

Cyanobacteria can be a difficult problem to cure, it's not always as easy as cutting back on feeding, once it takes a hold it is persistent and can cause damage to corals within a tank, for this reason I would rather take an aggressive form of action to protect my corals. I agree certain species may show a negative reaction, which is why a responsible reefkeeper will monitor and understand coral behaviour, and take appropriate action if negative signs are seen.

There is more of a write up about Chemiclean here if anyone is interested in the effects of it's use:

 

https://reefhacks.com/how-to-get-rid-of-cyanobacteria/

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Thanks for the input @Lula_Mae and @Perthreefer but I've concluded it's dino prorocentrum, not cyano. I tried chemiclean a few weeks ago but didn't do anything, which got me thinking it wasn't cyano.

 

Anyway, someone is helping me with the dinos. Hopefully it'll help clear it up in the coming weeks

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2 hours ago, paulsz said:

Thanks for the input @Lula_Mae and @Perthreefer but I've concluded it's dino prorocentrum, not cyano. I tried chemiclean a few weeks ago but didn't do anything, which got me thinking it wasn't cyano.

 

Anyway, someone is helping me with the dinos. Hopefully it'll help clear it up in the coming weeks

Do some research on peroxide dosing for dino treatment.

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8 hours ago, Perthreefer said:

I definitely appreciate what you're saying here. I wasn't implying at all that you had not followed the instructions. With everything in reefkeeping when things go wrong after a little investigation it tends to be the case that people haven't followed instructions, however that is definitely not always the case. As an example I have had horrible experiences with the tank transfer method and more sensitive species, powder tangs etc. That doesn't mean TTF isn't a valid method, just that it's not a generic cure for everything. Same can be said for adding chemicals to the tank, there are many different occasions when chemical methods are employed, they do not always have good outcomes (as you know). The thing with forums is people are quick to comment a bad experience but slow to comment a good experience so it's difficult to gauge the effectiveness of a particular product. I agree that non chemical methods should be explored first, I would stop short of not recommending chemical methods that have been proven though and if a reefkeeper has had particular success with a product I see no harm in continuing to use that product in a responsible and methodical way.

Cyanobacteria can be a difficult problem to cure, it's not always as easy as cutting back on feeding, once it takes a hold it is persistent and can cause damage to corals within a tank, for this reason I would rather take an aggressive form of action to protect my corals. I agree certain species may show a negative reaction, which is why a responsible reefkeeper will monitor and understand coral behaviour, and take appropriate action if negative signs are seen.

There is more of a write up about Chemiclean here if anyone is interested in the effects of it's use:

 

https://reefhacks.com/how-to-get-rid-of-cyanobacteria/

You make some good points.  I tend to be conservative when recommending chemicals no matter what because I've seen a lot of folks looking for a bandaid fix over the years without first trying to correct the problems. Chemicals doi have their place, I just feel it's last in line lol. 

4 hours ago, paulsz said:

Thanks for the input @Lula_Mae and @Perthreefer but I've concluded it's dino prorocentrum, not cyano. I tried chemiclean a few weeks ago but didn't do anything, which got me thinking it wasn't cyano.

 

Anyway, someone is helping me with the dinos. Hopefully it'll help clear it up in the coming weeks

There's a lot of things you can try with dinos. I tried dosing bacteria and live phyto along with pods, a prolonged blackout, and avoiding water changes which made it worse. Good luck on your battle. I think I may be developing them again in my big tank. Sigh. 

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6 minutes ago, Lula_Mae said:

You make some good points.  I tend to be conservative when recommending chemicals no matter what because I've seen a lot of folks looking for a bandaid fix over the years without first trying to correct the problems. Chemicals doi have their place, I just feel it's last in line lol. 

 

I agree.  It does work for a lot of people; however, I think too many get caught up in treating the symptoms and never get around to correcting the root of the problem

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21 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Do some research on peroxide dosing for dino treatment.

Given I've had undetectable nitrates and phosphates since i started the tank (mix of low bioload, and frequent water changes, etc.), I decided to raise them for a little bit. Get my nitrates to 5 ppm and phosphates to 0.05-0.1. Hopefully this will allow algae to grow and out-compete the dinos. 

 

If this doesn't work in the next few weeks, i will give peroxide a try. 

 

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I didn’t have much luck with Chemiclean, didn’t really do anything. API Erythromycin at half or quarter dose got rid of every last cell of it, and never came back. The stuff I had was maroon and stringy in flow, and when that erythromycin hit it, turned my water pink for a day or two. Corals didn’t like it, but no worse than something like PraziPro. 

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1 hour ago, paulsz said:

Given I've had undetectable nitrates and phosphates since i started the tank (mix of low bioload, and frequent water changes, etc.), I decided to raise them for a little bit. Get my nitrates to 5 ppm and phosphates to 0.05-0.1. Hopefully this will allow algae to grow and out-compete the dinos. 

 

If this doesn't work in the next few weeks, i will give peroxide a try. 

 

Yes, please let us know what works on the dinos.

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3 hours ago, paulsz said:

Given I've had undetectable nitrates and phosphates since i started the tank (mix of low bioload, and frequent water changes, etc.), I decided to raise them for a little bit. Get my nitrates to 5 ppm and phosphates to 0.05-0.1. Hopefully this will allow algae to grow and out-compete the dinos. 

 

If this doesn't work in the next few weeks, i will give peroxide a try. 

 

dosing nitrate is what got rid of most of my dino.  

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