Torch and Duncan's Closed Up

[Lognor]

Over the last few days my Torch has completely shut down and the flesh actually looks like it's receding.  At first it was just the torch, but now my Duncan's are also shut up tight.  All of my other corals are looking okay, including the hammers, frogspawn, mushrooms, zoas, etc, so it has me worried and confused.  I tested my water and parameters were all the same as in tests done over the past few months, so it didn't appear to be something obvious.  I took a sample to my LFS to be tested as well.  The one thing he found was that the Ph is at 7.8.  I hadn't been testing Ph specifically, as my kit didn't have that in it.  I mistakenly thought the phosphate test was the same thing, which I was educated that it wasn't.  More newbie learning, ugh.  I've been adding buffer the past 3 days and did a water change last night.  I'm going to be changing my Chemipure and purigen media as soon as it arrives, hopefully tonight.

I'm wondering from other's experience, if Ph being low would match what I'm seeing in the tank?  Researching online says that a reef tank should have Ph between 8.0-8.4, so while 7.8 is lower than that, is that small of a difference in scale causing this big of a reaction?  The only changes in the past month is the addition of another torch, a ricordea, and a leptastrea, (dipped before they went in), some placement changes for other corals, and twice, water changes were stretched out to 2 weeks instead of 1 because I had to be out of town.  Not sure if any of that would have any impact. either.

 

Salinity - 1.024

Calcium - 400

Phosphate - 0.5

Nitrate - 5-10

Ph - 7.8

Temp - 80

 

The first pic is what the torch looks like today.  The second is what it was 2 weeks ago, which is smaller than it normally has been.

 

[Tamberav]

pH of 7.8 is fine, I never test pH because you shouldn't try to change it anyways as that would cause swings, pH is based on the carbon dioxide in your house. Some people correct it a bit by dosing at night or running an airline outside from a skimmer but for the most part you just ignore it. Many people have a pH of 7.8 so I wouldn't worry about it. 

 

What you should be testing is your Alkalinity. 

 

Salinity a touch low, phosphate a bit high but nothing alarming.... Alk is ???? Alk is one of the most important parameters, you have a lot of coralline algae and it could be sucking it up. Missing water changes means your alk may have dipped lower than normal. 

 

Magnesium is also nice to know because if it is low it could make raising your Alk difficult. 

 

 

[Lognor]

1 minute ago, Tamberav said:

pH of 7.8 is fine, I never test pH because you shouldn't try to change it anyways as that would cause swings, pH is based on the carbon dioxide in your house. Some people correct it a bit by dosing at night or running an airline outside from a skimmer but for the most part you just ignore it. 

 

What you should be testing is your Alkalinity. 

 

Salinity a touch low, phosphate a bit high but nothing alarming.... Alk is ???? Alk is one of the most important parameters, you have a lot of coralline algae and it could be sucking it up. 

 

Magnesium is also nice to know because if it is low it could raising your Alk difficult. 

Thanks for the follow up.  I test for Alk, but I didn't bring my notes with me to work, so I can't recall the actual number, but I thought it was the same as previous tests.  I will update the numbers tonight when I get home.  Thanks for pointing me in the right direction on possible causes though.

 

[FlytheWMark]

1 hour ago, Lognor said:

Thanks for the follow up.  I test for Alk, but I didn't bring my notes with me to work, so I can't recall the actual number, but I thought it was the same as previous tests.  I will update the numbers tonight when I get home.  Thanks for pointing me in the right direction on possible causes though.

 

I had a similar issue and found my Alk was "low".  It had been around 8.4, dropped to 7.6 for a while and once I got it back to mid 8-9 I noticed it coming out more.  Like most will say in here stability is key.  I seem to have better luck with my torches, hammers, and duncans when Alk is between 8.6-9.4ish but that's just my tank.

[Lognor]

Stopped at an LFS on the way home and added some more tests to my kit.  Results were:

 

ph test 1 - 8.05

ph test 2 - 8.0

alkalinity - 5.5

calcium - 480

phosphate - 0.25

nitrate - 5

nitrite - 0

ammonia - 0.25

 

Everything looks normal, right?  I changed my filter floss, purigen, and chemipure tonight, so we’ll see how things fare the next couple of days. 

[Clown79]

Chasing ph is not a good thing. It's an old school method.

 

Ph fluctuates all day and is effected by photosynthesis. 

Ph also works with alk.

 

Ph buffers are dangerous to use. They alter other parameters like alk.

 

Alk fluctuations or being too low is the more likely culprit of your coral issues than ph at 7.8.

 

I would not try to alter ph, focus on alk(5.5 is very low)

[Lognor]

8 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Chasing ph is not a good thing. It's an old school method.

 

Ph fluctuates all day and is effected by photosynthesis. 

Ph also works with alk.

 

Ph buffers are dangerous to use. They alter other parameters like alk.

 

Alk fluctuations or being too low is the more likely culprit of your coral issues than ph at 7.8.

 

I would not try to alter ph, focus on alk(5.5 is very low)

Ok, thanks.  Alkalinity is the one that I wasn't sure about.  It was late when I got home and running all the tests took me well over 30 minutes, so I didn't have time to do much more than update my post.  I'll do my homework on Alkalinity and start working on that.  Thanks for the great guidance.

 

[Recci]

1 hour ago, Lognor said:

Ok, thanks.  Alkalinity is the one that I wasn't sure about.

 

LOL ALK is probably the most important parameter there is! This is something that you need to keep on top of constantly in every tank that has LPS or SPS corals in them. You will probably need to set up a dosing pump or kalkwasser drip to keep it at stable value between 8 and 11.5. Find out what value your salt mixes to and use that as the default to keep it at. You will have to test every day or two untill you figure out how many dkh your tank is dropping per day so you can figure out how much to dose. 

[FlytheWMark]

11 hours ago, Lognor said:

Stopped at an LFS on the way home and added some more tests to my kit.  Results were:

 

ph test 1 - 8.05

ph test 2 - 8.0

alkalinity - 5.5

calcium - 480

phosphate - 0.25

nitrate - 5

nitrite - 0

ammonia - 0.25

 

Everything looks normal, right?  I changed my filter floss, purigen, and chemipure tonight, so we’ll see how things fare the next couple of days. 

Wow 5.5 Alk... my bet is that's the culprit.  Also, a cycled tank should have no ammonia... you should keep a close eye on that as that's a red flag.

[Clown79]

6 hours ago, Lognor said:

Ok, thanks.  Alkalinity is the one that I wasn't sure about.  It was late when I got home and running all the tests took me well over 30 minutes, so I didn't have time to do much more than update my post.  I'll do my homework on Alkalinity and start working on that.  Thanks for the great guidance.

 

Alkalinity is one parameter that is very important. Stability is key.

Stony corals use alkalinity, so it is an element that can drop significantly when you have lps and sps.

 

 

 

Your target number for alk is what your salt mixes at( your tank is usually about the same)

 

So to get on track and have a better understanding of what is going on in your tank with Alk is :

 

Test the alk of your newly mixed salt water and your tank after the waterchange.

 

Then test alk every day until the day of your next waterchange(7 days of testing)

 

After a week, you will see how much your tank is consuming as well as knowing what your salt originally mixes at because if your salt mixes low, it will be an issue, which means dosing your newly mixed water every week.

 

 

Now if your tank is consuming a decent amount of alk every day, dosing will become necessry. Using a 2 part liquid doser like ESV Bionic is very easy and keeps alk and ca in balance because as one rises, the other drops. These 2 elements also work together.

 

You can manually dose and there are online calculators to help with correct dosage amounts.

 

 

I would start on the testing aspect and worry about dosing once you know what is going on.

[Lognor]

34 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Alkalinity is one parameter that is very important. Stability is key.

Stony corals use alkalinity, so it is an element that can drop significantly when you have lps and sps.

 

 

 

Your target number for alk is what your salt mixes at( your tank is usually about the same)

 

So to get on track and have a better understanding of what is going on in your tank with Alk is :

 

Test the alk of your newly mixed salt water and your tank after the waterchange.

 

Then test alk every day until the day of your next waterchange(7 days of testing)

 

After a week, you will see how much your tank is consuming as well as knowing what your salt originally mixes at because if your salt mixes low, it will be an issue, which means dosing your newly mixed water every week.

 

 

Now if your tank is consuming a decent amount of alk every day, dosing will become necessry. Using a 2 part liquid doser like ESV Bionic is very easy and keeps alk and ca in balance because as one rises, the other drops. These 2 elements also work together.

 

You can manually dose and there are online calculators to help with correct dosage amounts.

 

 

I would start on the testing aspect and worry about dosing once you know what is going on.

I really appreciate all the detailed feedback.  My current plan is to take another test today, to verify my first test was accurate, as well as check the kit against the reference sample.  Assuming it is as low as I suspect, I'm going to pick up some bicarbonate this afternoon and work to increase the level gradually.  Daily checks to monitor.  Once stable I'm going to check daily for regular consumption as well as the level i'm getting from the LFS.  Then I can figure out if I need to be dosing, how much, and what frequency.  Lots of learning the past few days.  Not sure how I managed to survive 10 months without having been testing for alkalinity specifically.  

[A Little Blue]

Salinity is low, Alk is a bit too low (if it fluctuates often up and down by 2 or more points, that’s even worst). Try keeping it around 8dKh (+/- 1). You should not have ANY ammonia in your tank at this point. I would question integrity/accuracy of your test kit. If your reading is accurate, fix it. 

Whatever you do to correct your parameters, do it slowly. 

[Lognor]

1 minute ago, A Little Blue said:

Salinity is low, Alk is a bit too low (if it fluctuates often up and down by 2 or more points, that’s even worst). Try keeping it around 8dKh (+/- 1). You should not have ANY ammonia in your tank at this point. I would question integrity/accuracy of your test kit. If your reading is accurate, fix it. 

Whatever you do to correct your parameters, do it slowly. 

Agreed.  New kits and it was late, so my eyes might have been a little off.  I'm going to be running a full panel of tests everyday for the next few weeks.

[OPtasia]

Once you get your parameters correct and stable, check your flow. Euphyllia have skeletal scutes that are sharp and can cut the flesh of the coral if the flow is too high. It'll show signs by receding much in the same way yours appears to be doing. Just make sure it's in a low flow area, especially while it's recovering.

[A Little Blue]

Address Alk and ammonia levels first. Everything else can be progressively addressed later on. It would be nice to get to the roof of the problem as far as elevated ammonia is concerned. If reading was accurate ofcause.

[Lognor]

6 hours ago, A Little Blue said:

Address Alk and ammonia levels first. Everything else can be progressively addressed later on. It would be nice to get to the roof of the problem as far as elevated ammonia is concerned. If reading was accurate ofcause.

I retested ammonia and it was zero. Salinity is at 1.025.  Everything else is the same as yesterday.  I added the first dose of sodium bicarbonate this evening. I’ll restest all parameters each day and dose again until the alkalinity is at 8, provided nothing else starts acting up.  I’m targeting a .5 increase per day.  

[MrObscura]

If everything is in line address that low  Alk. But do it slowly as raising it quickly will only do more damage.

 

7dkh is usually the minimum people run their tanks, which matches natural sea water. 7-11 is what's suggested. I'm personally aiming for 9 as it's right in the middle and new corsls will likely have no problem adjusting and any small changes in either direction won't have any drastic effects. 

 

Also for future reference, if you ever notice your Duncan close up for a day or two and everything is in line, it's likely fine. They tend to do that once in a while and then open back up as big as ever and happy as can be. 

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, Lognor said:

I retested ammonia and it was zero. Salinity is at 1.025.  Everything else is the same as yesterday.  I added the first dose of sodium bicarbonate this evening. I’ll restest all parameters each day and dose again until the alkalinity is at 8, provided nothing else starts acting up.  I’m targeting a .5 increase per day.  

Does your salt mix to 8?

 

The target number that is to be maintained is what your salt mixes at

 

If one doses to reach a number that a salt doesn't mix at, when  waterchanges are done the tank will go through a fluctuation.

 

Essentially causing more problems.

[MrObscura]

Yea, either stick to the numbers your salt mixes to or if you have specific numbers you want to hit for a certain reason then try to find a salt to match. 

 

You can adjust the levels of your mix water before each water change, but there's usually an easy solution.   

 

What salt are you using? 

[A Little Blue]

9 hours ago, Lognor said:

I retested ammonia and it was zero. Salinity is at 1.025.  Everything else is the same as yesterday.  I added the first dose of sodium bicarbonate this evening. I’ll restest all parameters each day and dose again until the alkalinity is at 8, provided nothing else starts acting up.  I’m targeting a .5 increase per day.  

1.025 isn’t too bad. Keep it as stable as possible. Check your refractometer often and calibrate it as needed. 1.026 would be my target but 1.025 is acceptable. It’s easier to keep Alk level close to your salt mix levels but there are ways around it if you wanna get into it. It’s not rocket science, just some common sense logic. Ask if you have specific question regarding your saltmix, Alk, water change and how to keep all these factors interact with each other for stable and consistent parameters. 

Last note, check your Alk at the same time of the day. Alk fluctuates during 24h period. 

[Lognor]

Appreciate all the feedback.  I started dosing a tsp of sodium bicarbonate on Friday (2 doses so far).  After the first day, no change, still at 5.5, but the duncans are starting to open again.  The torch is about the same. 

I haven't tested yet today.  As per advice above, I'm sticking to the evening hours to check since that's the only time of day I'm consistently home.  I'm planning on doing another water change this afternoon.  To answer another question, I get my water from my LFS.  Other than checking salinity, I hadn't done parameter tests on it, but I hear what you're saying and will start testing to see what it is before adding.  It makes total sense that if I'm adding water that is low, i'm only furthering the issue.  

[Lognor]

Well, I think I've found the root of the Alkalinity issue.  2 batches/bottles of water from the LFS store tested at alkalinity of 4.  Salinity was 1.023 and 1.021.  I had to doctor it to get the salinity and alk up in it before putting in the tank.  Reading from last night after water change was 5.5-6.0 so i'm finally heading in the right direction.

[Lognor]

Alkalinity was up to 6 before dosing last night, so I think I'm finally making progress.  The Duncan's are opening up more each day, but the torch is not doing well.  It's not completely gone, but it's not responding at all yet.  Hopefully it will still recover.

[Clown79]

On 11/5/2018 at 9:09 AM, Lognor said:

Well, I think I've found the root of the Alkalinity issue.  2 batches/bottles of water from the LFS store tested at alkalinity of 4.  Salinity was 1.023 and 1.021.  I had to doctor it to get the salinity and alk up in it before putting in the tank.  Reading from last night after water change was 5.5-6.0 so i'm finally heading in the right direction.

I'd start making your own water.

 

Salinity being inconsistent will cause nothing but issues with corals and your alk will be inconsistent too.

[Lognor]

5 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

I'd start making your own water.

 

Salinity being inconsistent will cause nothing but issues with corals and your alk will be inconsistent too.

My LFS guy is a really good friend, so I'm going to talk with him about to see what he says.  I really don't want to invest in a RODI system and/or have to deal with salt mixing all the time, but at this rate, if things don't change, it would be easier than what I'm having to deal with the past few weeks.