Clownfish Question

[FrancineJ]

So my plan was not to add my 2 clownfish first but stock at the LFS’s dealer left me with no real choice... so moving on....

They have had a pair of clownfish there for about a month... maybe a bit less... I was in the store when the just finished getting acclimated and were put into the tank... they were the only 2 clownfish in the tank (small store) and have been the only 2 in there.... here lies my possible problem... I know when buying clowns you should buy one bigger one and one smaller one (yes I know how all the set changinf stuff works) so when they first added them and even a couple weeks later one was always smaller- not much but a bit... these clowns are not very old... they are NOW maybe an inch.... when we first seen them weeks ago at the pet store they would have been like 0.5” and 0.75”s maybe.... anyway now they are the same size.... I don’t understand how this happened... if they were the only 2 in the tank together (no other fish at all) should they not have already “changed” to their male/female roles? Since they were the only fish in the tank?

I am now a bit concerned that somehow they both went female..... so far no real aggression... a little bit of chasing but only from the one fish m, which gives me a tad bit of promise....

anyway are they still too young maybe to have changed? They were even shipped to the store in the same bag and only the 2 of them... I know these people well and they would not lie if let’s say they sold one and replaced it... they are telling me these are the same 2 that have been living together for close to a month.... so why the same size thing? I’m worried now about one killing the other... and I can’t find any real clear answer on when these fish change sexes.... 

anyone with clown experience... help? lol 

also kn wondering if maybe there supplier is an idiot and one is a Perc and Ken is a false Perc... I found out some differences like the black outline and eyes and spine count (which I won’t be able to do with my bad eyes lol)

But it’s lights out now so I’ll have to check in the morning... but is there any other differences?

a couple things I noticed today:

one fish- the more dominant one: her last white strip doesn’t quite go all the way around... it goes like 85-90% of the way or more but there is a little bit of orange...

The ventral fin on that same fish always seems to be pulled up.. I don’t know if that means anything or not as opposed to the other fish who’s ventral fins always seem to be down (they look split but I think they are supposed to have 2 right... on the first fish I can hardly tell because it’s always nearly pulled up but my son says there is still 2.... does this indicate anything about changing sexes?  Or is something wrong with one lol

Any advice would be great.... again my biggest concern is they appear very very close to the same size and how that happened when they were shipped at a young young age together and have always lived together is beyond me.... 

Thanks 

 

[Clown79]

A perc and ocellaris can be kept together.

 

 

Here is a very interesting read on the subject.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5066260/

 

 

 

 

[FrancineJ]

Oh yes I know they can... I didn’t get a chance to look at the link yet but in my research a lot of both that are labeled are actually a hybrid of both because they look so similar....

 

My question was mainly is that possibly why:

1- I am seeing what I am seeing: such as the ventral fin appearance (why does one fish very clearly have 2 and leave them down most of the time and one (my son says it looks the same) except that fish keeps it up most of the time or is that something to do with that one has already changed to a female...

 

2- if one is a female already why are they the same size

 

3- I KNOW 100% these fish have been sent from to the  lfs at basically the smallest salable size they were like 0.5” and 0.75” OR even smaller.... when they got to the fish store, But one was smaller than the other up until about a week ago (IF that) I seen them with my own eyes like 10 times in the close to the month they were there and they are the same 2 fish and ONLY 2 fish in the tank....

 

4- Are they of age to change? I know you can’t age a fish by their size or anything like that but at what age do they typically change? Some places I’ve read at sexual maturity of like a year and others 6 months and others a couple weeks is when they make their change

And is it possible (because the fish are the same size that they are both females? Even though they have never been apart and have been the only 2 fish in their tank (at both the store and my house) how would they both have changed to female? As I said I was there when they came in and started the acclimation and they were even shipped TO THE LFS (not my house) in the same bag.... I even acclimated them together so is there still a chance that they could have both ended up females? Even though they have been housed together and only these 2 fish.... I could see it if I bought 2 fish of similar size from a tank of like 50 but there were only ever 2 and now I have them both and at one time one of them was smaller.... now same size

 

Basically just need to prepare myself for one to kill the other or know if they are still too young to have made the change and may be still fighting for dominance... the one fish definitely exhibits all the dominance right now but from everything I have read the male should and will always be smaller... but yet my 2 are the same size.... and the ventral fin thing...they look very different.... one looks like it’s down all the time and it’s one fin kind of split in 2 and the other one holds theirs up tighter to the body (but my son says it still looks like it’s split the same as the other clowns and this one just holds it up)

 

it was not a matter of if I had a Perc and an oceslleris (can’t spell that so we will just say false Perc 😂 lol)  but I’m most concerned if these have both somehow changed to 2 females.... does anyone know when they make the change? I know a single fish can change to a female if left alone but these ones haven’t been... neither of them.... so maybe one hasn’t changed yet? They are close to an inch I think... I’m gonna look at measuring better in the morning when I can see better... their moonlights were ramping down when I got a chance to really have a good good look at them for an extended period of time....

[Clown79]

Well the article explains that its generally determined by size and it occurs due to length of time together(stimuli). 

 

The 1 to 2 yrs is when they reach sexual maturity but it also depends on the social stimuli. 

That is what determines what they will change to. The social stimuli, how many clowns are kept together, length of time together, size, and dominance of 1 and submissive behaviour of another.

 

This answers your questions

 

https://www.bluezooaquatics.com/resources.asp?show=417

 

 

Unfortunately clown behaviour can't be determined. You can have a female/male and end up with only 1.

 

 

I explained that percs and ocellaris can be kept together because you said

 

one is a Perc and Ken is a false Perc... I found out some differences like the black outline and eyes and spine count (which I won’t be able to do with my bad eyes lol)

But it’s lights out now so I’ll have to check in the morning... but is there any other differences?

a couple things I noticed today

[FrancineJ]

Ya those are the same differences I found but it was lights out here too and my eyes won’t be counting no spines either especially when it’s like 1 or 2 difference 😂 

 

I know they have been together since salable size and always together and the only ones together... so basically what I am gathering from the article is that they are too young to tell what’s going to happen yet? I don’t know how fast they grow but they would be no where near a year old... like I said they are now only about an inch (maybe) but when my lfs got them they were like 0.5” and the other slightly bigger... that was roughly a month ago or so... to my understanding their growth kind of slows down around this point... and then speeds up again around sexual maturity... but I do not think they are anywhere near 1 year old....

So I guess we just wait it out and see? 

I would rather keep these 2 together that have been together (like the lfs only ordered 2 and these are the 2) so they lived alone in the tank at the fish store for a month with out killing each other yet... as I mentioned I do see a bit of “dominance” showing... but right now it’s just chasing the other one until “it” retreats to somewhere else... and it’s always the one that the last white band doesn’t go all the way around “it” so I’m thinking that’s the one that is or may end up female as the other one doesn’t try to fight back... he just retreats as I said...

im thinking maybe they are in the stage of accepting living together and going to start to want to transform if that makes sense....

should I be concerned about the difference in ventral fins? Like I said the “less dominant one” has “its” down all the time and I can see 2 but attached at the top.... the other one “dominant one” keeps its ventral fin/fins (I see 1 fin but my son says it’s the same as the other one with the split) but it’s hard to tell because “it” keeps it tucked up tighter to “its” body.....

 

ill take a piture of their ventral fins in the morning so you can see what I mean... I’m just not sure if one has an injury (swimming is not impaired in anyway) or if that’s just how it holds them - they have also only been added to the tank... so nerves are still there...

[A Little Blue]

Clownfish are sequential hermaphrodites. As you know, they’re born males and change to female later in life. Aggression is normal and most dominant alpha male will transform into a female. It might not be pretty, it might be even a little violent but necessary progression that will determine their sexuality and cohesiveness between a bonded pair. Unless they're killing each other, I wouldn’t stress myself too much about it. Just let it take its course. 

There are many sources online that go in depth regarding this phenomena. 

[FrancineJ]

Yes I know how the whole process works... 

and yes I know the aggression is what determines it and yes I know it’s ok to mix those 2 types... half of them are already bred together (which I think is what I maybe have- one that’s A false Perc and one that’s half and half.... I’ll attach some photos.... there’s some odd differences.... but my concern was if the fact the are the same size (even though they were not before but have been living together for a month in a tank just the 2 of them already and are young.... I’m hoping they pair... we just fed them some NLS pellets and they ate them like it was no tomorrow however... I think I’m correct on which one is “most likely” going to be the female... she has been the bossy one, she hogged the food (I had to drop a couple pellets while she was snatching some so the “ maybe boy” got a little lol

neither of them appear to have injuries UNLESS that is what I am seeing in his ventral fin also with the black outline they both have it but one has like a patch missing of the black and it’s the same one that the white doesn’t go all the way around... you will see in pics hopefully

Darn fish are so hard to get pictures of lol 

So you will see in the pics

one has its ventral fins up and no black but just in one spot (it’s circled) and part of the last white stripe is missing 

 

and the other one has its ventral fins down (they are much more noticeable in real life) and he has full black on its top fin where the other one is missing it 

[A Little Blue]

🤣So you have a bit of an oddball Clownfish. No big deal. I’ve seen some oddballs, morphed incarnations or just strange looking Clownfish over the years. As long as they’re eating and appear to be healthy, I wouldn’t over hyperventilate. It’s hard to tell from these pics which one might be a female or not. I could take a guess but it would only prove that I got lucky if it turned out to be the case. Lol 

 

[Clown79]

16 minutes ago, A Little Blue said:

🤣So you have a bit of an oddball Clownfish. No big deal. I’ve seen some oddballs, morphed incarnations or just strange looking Clownfish over the years. As long as they’re eating and appear to be healthy, I wouldn’t over hyperventilate. It’s hard to tell from these pics which one might be a female or not. I could take a guess but it would only prove that I got lucky if it turned out to be the case. Lol 

 

This^

[FrancineJ]

Well now.... after I took the pictures lol the ones ventral fins look more normal... it’s not holding them up all the time now... go figures....but ya he ate today and was eating at the store etc.... so the only odd ball part now is the one with the missing part of the stripe lol and the black outline in some parts but not others lol 

How could you ever tell from the pictures?? I thought there was no “physical” way to tell? Only behaviors and size? And they are identical in size lol

but I am not convinced yet that either are... but if one is than it looks like it’s going to be or is the one with the missing part of white on the last stripe.... it’s the more agressive one... (only chasing so far? And it definitely tried hogging the food lol those are the signs that I have read about... but just curious how would you tell from pictures? 

And I was just more concerned that maybe the one was hurt or something so wanting to keep an eye on it... also by looking at them im pretty convinced that the one has some of both genes... because it has the black lines in some part and not in others lol

[FrancineJ]

6 hours ago, A Little Blue said:

Clownfish are sequential hermaphrodites. As you know, they’re born males and change to female later in life. Aggression is normal and most dominant alpha male will transform into a female. It might not be pretty, it might be even a little violent but necessary progression that will determine their sexuality and cohesiveness between a bonded pair. Unless they're killing each other, I wouldn’t stress myself too much about it. Just let it take its course. 

There are many sources online that go in depth regarding this phenomena. 

And yes I know and have read them all in depth but every single one mentions that the male should be substantially smaller and mine are the same size.... but have only ever lived together with no other fish since they were like 0.5” and maybe .75” s..... since they left the breeders and when my lfs orders them they get sent 2 different sizes for this purpose... and I’m not even sure there was hardly a snail in the tank with them... maybe a couple nerite’s....so you would think that you wouldn’t end up with 2 females... 

[FrancineJ]

9 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Well the article explains that its generally determined by size and it occurs due to length of time together(stimuli). 

 

The 1 to 2 yrs is when they reach sexual maturity but it also depends on the social stimuli. 

That is what determines what they will change to. The social stimuli, how many clowns are kept together, length of time together, size, and dominance of 1 and submissive behaviour of another.

 

This answers your questions

 

https://www.bluezooaquatics.com/resources.asp?show=417

 

 

Unfortunately clown behaviour can't be determined. You can have a female/male and end up with only 1.

 

 

I explained that percs and ocellaris can be kept together because you said

 

one is a Perc and Ken is a false Perc... I found out some differences like the black outline and eyes and spine count (which I won’t be able to do with my bad eyes lol)

But it’s lights out now so I’ll have to check in the morning... but is there any other differences?

a couple things I noticed today

Sorry just noticed... no they are both “supposed” to be false Percs lol (I can not spell Ocellaris? Lol) I just said maybe that was the case because of the ones odd ball looks.... but no if I did say one is a Perc and one is not... that’s not what I meant lol I just meant that it didn’t quite fit the exact looks of a false Perc lol 

[A Little Blue]

My understanding is that as a juvenile, Clownfish is basically “gender neutral”. 

And as it matures, it develops social hierarchy, more profound behavioral characteristics and more defined gender. At 0.5-0.7” size,  I can say with confidence that those are still juveniles. Would have been a little more straightforward and less “stressful” to have your supplier address pairing issue to begin with? Probably, but it doesn’t mean that it won’t work out or that you will run into more issues with these guys than any other scenario. You would like to get some guarantees and confirmation that your guys will get alone and pair up over time and I get it, however. I will make these two points in closing:

• since these are still juveniles, it’s possible and probable that they didn’t developed their gender  yet

• assuming that “pairing” much larger female with juvenile clown would get a better results or chance in pairing, isn’t a formula for predictable outcome. 

And I didn’t say that I can tell their gender.... I said that I can take a guess. Huge difference. 😏

[FrancineJ]

No I think you misunderstood me sorry (I am terrible at explaining)

 

ok to start: we had no intentions of starting off with the clowns.... they are the most agressive fish on our list...

we wanted to start with 1x Blue Green Chromis.... I live in the boonies and where I am from in Canada the town that is The closest... is very small like 8000 or so.... after that I would have to drive over an hour or so to a fish store but my lfs is great... it’s a mom and pop shop that branched out to a small chain (like 5-6 stores in surrounding towns)

 

so In my town there are like maybe 5-10 people that have salt water tanks lol

 

When I get any fish (they call or text me every Thursday to see if I need anything, because I also have a thousand FW tanks from like 75g down to 8g, from fish to frogs to axoltyls- over like 30 years in FW)

so long story short they couldn’t get a blue Green Chromis.... I even checked at the like 3 or 4 places where we can buy fish online in Canada and they were also out of stock so we decided oh well let’s go ahead and add the clownfish- side note... they have been at the pet store for a month... together, the only 2 fish in that SW tank and I was in the store a month ago when they got them and one was about 0.5” s and the other maybe .75” s..... definitely a size difference... even a week and a half ago when we seen them they were bigger but still different sizes.... my son went and grabbed them on Thursday for me (older son) because I was waiting for a package but I phoned ahead to the owner and told her I’d just take them... I figured even better they have been paired together for a month so all should be mich easier.... as of now both fish are about an inch.... that was my concern... how the heck did they get the same size If the male is supposed to stay smaller and it was just the 2 of them in the tank together for about a month.... 

 

And yes what happens is the group is all born gender less... and then around the size they are now one of the biggest one will bully their way to be the female and will change to a female.... once a female they can never go back.... the next biggest will claim the role of the male and the rest remain genderless if you will.... what happens if the female dies is that one that changed to a male will become the new female (again once he makes the change to female he can’t go back) then usually the next biggest or aggressive in the pack will become the new male and the rest remain “genderless)

so when my pet store ordered the 2 clowns a month ago there was a big one and a smaller one so I assumed they would have already had all this figured out... because there was no one to fight for gender roles and there was a big one and a smaller one.... upon getting them and realizing they are the same size it concerned me because I was worried they both had changed to female.... but they are no where near “sexually mature yet” so I honestly think they are just about there (they have to fight it out until the male becomes submissive and sometimes they don’t especially when they are close to the same size because every one of them wants to be the female.... 

so i have known how all of this worked for a long time... well before the fish came to me but like I said now that they are about an inch or so they are very close to the same size so what can happen is that if one does not give in and be submissive they will fight to the death basically.... that’s what I was worried about but just having them for about 48 as of now... I can already see which one is the agressive one (the messed up stripe one lol) she took over at this mornings feeding... would have ate it all (and the other one would have let her.... but I got him some while she was eating a piece of NLS) There has been some chasing but he just retreats and then about 90% of the time they just swim around together in the same area the odd time one will wonder off or be chased off (but it’s always the same one doing the chasing) from my research this is basically the time where he will fight back or just give in and from what I have seen he is just giving in.... so I think they are in the final process of changing or they already have.... they sleep beside each other near the front corner which they have chose as their “host”.... so I think I am ok but where the deaths usually happen is because during this change If one does not become submissive then they can fight to the death (happens more when the fish are the same size) Hence both my confusion and concern.... they are most definitely still juveniles (don’t reach sexual maturity until like a year or more) 

The only time that one will turn female pretty quickly is within a month of being alone or so because she has no one to compete with, that’s why they suggest adding a big one and a small one at the same time so that you don’t end up with 2 females... because let’s say I had a big chain store (I don’t know where you are from but we don’t have like Walmart’s that sell fish or petcos or those types of places) and I went in and they had 20 baby clowns in a tank and I picked one out brought it home.... she would quickly turn female (as I said usually within a month because now she has no competition) what can then happen is I want to then add a second one 2 months later... I could go back and pick one out but it could have already changed to female in the tank as well (that’s why they tell you to try and either add them together a big one and a small one or when buying the second seperate chose one that’s really small because once they go female they can not go back... however in that tank only one will be a female and one will be a male with the rest being “genderless” but the males can turn into females still) so the hopes in choosing a big and small one is that the bigger one will be able to make the smaller one intimidated therefore she will become the female and the other the male.... the problem is they don’t really known”exactly” when this happens (at what size or age) just around or before sexual maturity.... 

 

so now can you see my concern: I’m worried that if they have not already made the change (there will be nothing physically different about them) now that they are the same size (my guess is some employee was thinking she was doing good and probably noticed the one taking all the food and she probably over fed the other one... and that’s how they got caught up in size... so now if they haven’t changed the fight may come down to the death because one won’t be as intimidating because now they are the same... but I think I will be ok... the one definitely is showing dominance and the other is retreating and not fighting back (so far) and they have been together for a month at the lfs with no other fish at all... no other clowns nothing but a couple snails.... but if they haven’t changed yet then problems can arise if they both decide to try and be dominant.... that’s why it’s not even a guarantee it will work out of you get a small one and a big one because if you get a stubborn small one he may not get intimidated and try and fight back and it will lead to his death... or when people buy ones that are around the same size and wake up one morning to one dead or they both dead because they have literally faught to the death....

ugh that was a lot lol but ya that’s why I am concerned if they have not made the change yet (because of their size) but unfortunately it’s  one of those wait and see... monitor their behavior and it appears so far anyway that the one “normal” looking one will be the male as when she chases he retreats... when I fed them and she tried to eat it all he retreated... ect.... 

goodness I hope that makes sense lol it was a lot of typing (now my fingers are sore lmao 😂 pay back for the kps j guess haha)

[A Little Blue]

Yeah, that was a lot. But I am kinda glad as it only seems fair. Since we are kinda even as far as blisters are concern, I assure you that nature has its way and it will figure out how to solve your Clown gender issues. I did not know that you are Canadian. That kinda explains gender confusion (sorry, I could not help it with the sarcasm). 🤣

I also didn’t know that getting saltwater livestock is as hard as watching Trudeau with straight face. ( can’t help it 😎).

Well, with all seriousness, there is nothing wrong with rearranging your introduction priority list if this depends entirely on limited availability and stocking of your LFS. Introducing Chromis can and will be a little tricky. Clowns are a lot more aggressive by nature and will give it a chase when first introduced to your tank. Good news is that Chromis swimming abilities are superior to clumsy Crowns and it your tank size, you just might get away with it. 

I should know, I did exactly the same thing and despite some initial bullying, things come down a bit since. 

Back to Clowns..... well, you mentioned some obvious signs of aggression and dominant behavior from one of your Clowns. So, I am not really sure if your concerns are valid in the light of events you just mentioned...... I would just take a breather, step back and let those Clowns figure things out. If you never had Clowns before, brace yourself for some disturbing violence. Again, I assure you that it’s a normal behavioral path and you’ll have to try to look at that with some distance. Because, if you are freaking out a bit about fins and spots now...... you are going to go insane in months to come. Lmao 

PS

I’m from New York so no real problems with Clownfish shortages 👍

[FrancineJ]

Lol I’m used to agressive fish... maybe not salt water ones but I have had 200g-300g FW tanks in the past with some of the most agressive and mean cichlids only difference was some of my fish were 12”-15” big lol and would act like that I hope I’ll be ok with a 1-4” clownfish lol 

ya I chose pairings that were all compatible with one another the only one that showed “use caution” was clownfish and clownfish lol 

they have tried to see what my Truchus snails are lol trying to take a little bite off the shell... (probably never seen one before lol) there were like 1-2 nerites with them for a short time at the store.... lol but they almost looked not afraid to try and bite it then them being able to do any harm to the snail lol 

[A Little Blue]

Curious I suppose. They would nibble on strangest things as a juvenile (not that they’re getting any smarter with age 🙄), including your hand. Not exactly 12” cichlids but annoying at the very least. 

[FrancineJ]

Haha I’ve been lucky so far... until I add my goby/shrimp pair... and will have to spot feed lol right now it’s just drop in a couple pellets or some mysis lol

[A Little Blue]

Why are you concern about goby/shrimp  combo? For once, I don’t have an opinion on this subject. Lol 

I had pistols and various sand sifting gobies but never a bonded pair in the same tank. 

[FrancineJ]

No no I meant that’s when I’ll get my hands/arms bit from the clowns lol when I’m trying to spot feed them lol if I don’t spot feed them I doubt with the way these 2 took to food on the first day home (technically the 2nd) but still lol

sometimes fish won’t eat after you bring them home for a couple days and I gave them food they never had before too lol (NLS) and they snatched it up like no tomorrow lol so I doubt there will be any that will make it down to the shrimp/goby if I don’t spot feed lol 

But I’m used to having to do it.... I have to spot feed 5 gobies in my 75g (4 bumblebee gobies and a dragon goby) because I keep them in my brackish tank with 7 mollies (its a really good way to do it because the mollies are always having babies the gobies generally have a good food supply.... and my mollies are kind of on a really good schedule where they have a good batch (takes the gobies usually 2-3 days to finish them all off) but a bumblebee goby is nearly blind.... people often can’t even keep them in small tanks because they literally will not eat anything that doesn’t directly move near them.... that’s why the fry are great plus really nutritional for them too... so I just spot feed them anything from blood worms to mysis and then the big dragon goby is also blind but at least he has a better sense of smell and the food doesn’t have to be moving... just close to him lol he’s just a baby and he’s already like probably 6-7” or so but they are scared of their own shadow lol! 

But that’s all I meant is that that’s when the clowns will start biting me.... everything else on our stock will come up for food thankfully lol