Balanced Alk & Cal

[Aurortpa]

So I just discovered there is a chart and calculators for balancing Alk & Cal.  

 

Does this still hold true—is there a predetermined set of values that Alk should correspond to Cal?  😳

[Euphylin me]

if alk and calcium are not balanced then it will throw other numbers off as well (mainly magnesium) too high alk and too low calcium can cause ugly/receeding corals and too high cal and low alk can cause tissue recession/bleaching. but, if magnesium is off it will make it hard for these numbers to balance anyways. the numbers given in the charts/calculators are based off of chemistry and are valid. although i do believe there is a small range for each value

[FISHnChix]

38 minutes ago, Euphylin me said:

if alk and calcium are not balanced then it will throw other numbers off as well (mainly magnesium) too high alk and too low calcium can cause ugly/receeding corals and too high cal and low alk can cause tissue recession/bleaching. but, if magnesium is off it will make it hard for these numbers to balance anyways. the numbers given in the charts/calculators are based off of chemistry and are valid. although i do believe there is a small range for each value

I believe you are mostly correct but on the mag part if your mag is too low it messes with your alk and ca. I believe if mag is lower than 1200 it causes your ca to preceptiate out and that causes low ca levels and you will start to see little white ca deposits on your heater and other components of your system 

[Aurortpa]

So for those of us that keep higher mag, with little concern for precipitation—is this still relevant? I wasn’t sure if it was just for precipitation which is still a very valid and sensible point or if it is also to create a balanced environment for optimal absorption by corals??  I guess that is what I am truly curious about.

[markalot]

So my concern here is that you will start to try and dial in Alk and Calcium levels based on a chart.  Numerous combinations work.  Basically as long as Alk, Calcium, and Mg are in acceptable limits the tank will sort it out.   If you are dosing 2 part then dose the same amount of both parts.  Test Alk frequently, keep it stable, test calcium less frequently and make sure it stays in a good range.  Test MG even less frequently, but still regularly.  Water changes will keep Mg in check unless you have heavy Alk usage (SPS).

 

 

[paneubert]

4 minutes ago, Aurortpa said:

So for those of us that keep higher mag, with little concern for precipitation—is this still relevant? I wasn’t sure if it was just for precipitation which is still a very valid and sensible point or if it is also to create a balanced environment for optimal absorption by corals??  I guess that is what I am truly curious about.

Alk is going to impact pH.  So I suppose someone holding really high mag would still want to be careful not to have SUPER high Alk due to the pH impact.

[FISHnChix]

5 minutes ago, Aurortpa said:

So for those of us that keep higher mag, with little concern for precipitation—is this still relevant.  I wasn’t sure if it was just for precipitation which is still a very valid and sensible point or if it is also to create a balanced environment for optimal absorption by corals??  I guess that is what I am truly curious about.

Oh man now your getting into chemistry which I dont know jack about. The little I know is that is mag is below 1200 ca flashes out. Corals need ca to build skeletons.  Alk is a really weird thing google it . It's really a test of ph or acidity of the water I cant explain bc it gets too much for me lmoa

[Aurortpa]

4 minutes ago, paneubert said:

Alk is going to impact pH.  So I suppose someone holding really high mag would still want to be careful not to have SUPER high Alk due to the pH impact.

That’s very useful to know actually!  Ty!

 

Still curious if someone has had better results following the recommended Cal levels for their particular Alk on these charts/calculators online or if it didn’t bear any real relevance.

[markalot]

There is no impact to high PH, mine regularly gets up to 8.5 when the house is well ventilated.

 

BRS just came out with this video from WWC that talks about their big tank.  It just so happens he talks about running calcium unusually high and why ... as a buffer for goof ups.  I just went through a calcium accident, it fell to 270 and I lost a couple of acros due to a doser issue.   I now run it a little high for the same reason.  While Alk stability is critical Calcium seems to be just the opposite, not critical as long as in range.  

 

 

 

[FISHnChix]

3 minutes ago, markalot said:

There is no impact to high PH, mine regularly gets up to 8.5 when the house is well ventilated.

 

BRS just came out with this video from WWC that talks about their big tank.  It just so happens he talks about running calcium unusually high and why ... as a buffer for goof ups.  I just went through a calcium accident, it fell to 270 and I lost a couple of acros due to a doser issue.   I now run it a little high for the same reason.  While Alk stability is critical Calcium seems to be just the opposite, not critical as long as in range.  

 

 

 

Ok so I am trying to learn something here. You said high ph isn't critical but stable alk is? Isn't alk some sort of representation of ph? Therefore high ph of 8.5 isn't bad but if it gets higher then it will be bad bc alk would be through the roof.. also it's kind weird bc alk in a way represents ph but it's not a linear scale?? I am probably getting into stuff I may not understand and dont need to for reefing haha

[markalot]

You can raise PH by dosing certain Alk mixtures and it's easier to keep higher PH with higher Alk, but since my Alk is normally at 6.5 I just don't believe there's that big of a connection.   The reality is PH should not be tested with kits and if you have a probe then it's nice to see changes, but unless calibrated on a regular basis the PH accuracy is questionable.   I use my PH probe to kill the doser if PH suddenly spikes, which is a good indication of something being wrong.  Unfortunately the APEX doesn't have a way to react to change so I I have to adjust the PH limits throughout the season.

 

I don't test PH in my 40 gallon, ever, and it does pretty well.  

[Euphylin me]

16 hours ago, Weikel said:

I believe you are mostly correct but on the mag part if your mag is too low it messes with your alk and ca. I believe if mag is lower than 1200 it causes your ca to preceptiate out and that causes low ca levels and you will start to see little white ca deposits on your heater and other components of your system 

right! i didnt want to get really technical and i stated that mag being off will cause an imbalance with other numbers as well. thanks for the info on the low mag! i never knew the number at which precipitation occurs. i have only experienced this issue once (when i was new to keeping sps)

[Aurortpa]

So in summary, having balanced alk & cal just helps reduce the chances of precipitation. There is no known cause for it helping with optimal absorption by livestock. Furthermore cal can be kept at whatever as long as it’s within range, contigent on mag being above 1200 to help eliminate the chances of any precipitation caused by an imbalance of alk & cal anyway.

[paneubert]

1 minute ago, Aurortpa said:

There is no known cause for it helping with optimal absorption by livestock

Some will claim keeping things artificially on the high side or "hot" does show "better" uptake and growth over time.  But that is another topic of discussion.  So I will go with "correct @Aurortpa, there is no known cause".  😉

[Euphylin me]

14 minutes ago, Aurortpa said:

So in summary, having balanced alk & cal just helps reduce the chances of precipitation. There is no known cause for it helping with optimal absorption by livestock. Furthermore cal can be kept at whatever as long as it’s within range, contigent on mag being above 1200 to help eliminate the chances of any precipitation caused by an imbalance of alk & cal anyway.

kind of. it has been shown that alk and ph all play a role in calcification rates in corals (alk being the main one but the others have to follow proper proportions. Sps need higher alk as this is how they secrete their calcium skeletons. using a reef calculator is a good idea to see what the other levels should be at. having an imbalance in magnesium will throw calcium and alk out of proportion

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1179702

this is a pretty decent thread that is not super lengthy to get a general idea of how it works....

[MrObscura]

I'm not at a point we're dosing is necessary yet, but from my research it seems like Alk is the most important and you should keep that steady. Calcium is fine as long as it's in an ideal range. And mag you only really need to start worrying about if Alk and cal are acting funny.  Or you have a reason to suspect it's way off. 

 

Alkalinity isn't really anything specific, in that it's not a particular mineral or chemical but rather a characteristic of the water being tested. Alk = waters ability to neutralize acids. Ph=acidity of water.

 

I may be preaching to the chrior here and you may already know all this, but point being, I definitely wouldn't bother with a chart. Just test your tank and take the necessary steps. 

[Euphylin me]

11 minutes ago, MrObscura said:

I'm not at a point we're dosing is necessary yet, but from my research it seems like Alk is the most important and you should keep that steady. Calcium is fine as long as it's in an ideal range. And mag you only really need to start worrying about if Alk and cal are acting funny.  Or you have a reason to suspect it's way off. 

 

Alkalinity isn't really anything specific, in that it's not a particular mineral or chemical but rather a characteristic of the water being tested. Alk = waters ability to neutralize acids. Ph=acidity of water.

 

I may be preaching to the chrior here and you may already know all this, but point being, I definitely wouldn't bother with a chart. Just test your tank and take the necessary steps. 

alkalinity is the availability of bicarbonate in the water. it does buffer ph so you are right on that. the chart is recommended for those that dont know what levels the elements should be at. for example they say your tanks alk should be between 7-12 dkh. if you have 7 dkh and 500ppm calcium, you are probably going to experience some problems. if you introduce sps corals into the tank i would check all three levels everyday for a week and then weekly after that. after a month, see how much alk,cal,and mag are consumed and that will let you know how much you should dose (for now) this is mainly for reefs that have quite a few sps as weekly water changes should be sufficient for those of us with only a few sps

[MrObscura]

A good rule of thumb seems to be to rule simply chose a quality salt you like and then maintain the levels in naturally mixes to. 

 

I have sps in my tank but they are only a few frags. I'm not testing anything daily. I just make sure Alk hasn't changed much before each wc. Though I could go without testing that even right now since they're not consuming much. 

 

Once the tank is fully stocked and frags are growing things will probably change. 

[mcarroll]

On 9/25/2018 at 7:04 PM, Aurortpa said:

So I just discovered there is a chart and calculators for balancing Alk & Cal.  

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

 

I'd use this to calculate any dose for ca, alk or mg....the balance is part of the calculation you get