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Test for ick?


Dane

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Hi everyone — so my fish got ick and are now in quarantine. I’ve read up on going fallow and that is my current plan. That’s said, has anyone gone fallow, and was it successful in eradicating your system of ick? I’m also curious if there is a way to test my tank for ick to see if I could get the fish back in the DT sooner than 2+ months. Thanks!

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I have never seen a study or other proof that ich cysts can lie dormant for any period of time when a suitable host is not present (some other parasites can).  The life cycle is pretty standard in length (give or take a week), which is why a fishless tank for 6-8 weeks is all that is needed to break the cycle.  Also why the "tank transfer method" works as well.  There is no test other than possibly a sacrificial fish that you removed at the first sign of infection, but that would be a horrible test with very little accuracy.  And it could start the entire thing over again.  

 

Do you have corals in the tank?  You could go fallow while also leveraging some of the other helpful methods such as salinity and temperature adjustment during the fallow time.  Not as possible if you have corals to keep alive though.

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Pretty much you are stuck going fallow for minimum 6 weeks, 8 weeks is better.

 

I got rid of velvet going fallow.

 

Theres tons of proof that going fallow gets rid of ich.

 

The proper way of going fallow is adding nothing to the tank during the 8 weeks so you don't unintentionally add ich from a coral pr invert. Most ppl don't follow this, they just don't keep fish during that time.

 

Ich can come in on anything so it's pretty hard to 100% prevent it without qt'ing corals and inverts.

 

 

Many ppl believe ich can be present always just in dormant stages, they believe thats why when fish are stressed or water quality drops, ich appears. 

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12 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Many ppl believe ich can be present always just in dormant stages, they believe thats why when fish are stressed or water quality drops, ich appears. 

I am not one of them.  Who wants to fight?  Haha.  🤬

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1 hour ago, paneubert said:

I am not one of them.  Who wants to fight?  Haha.  🤬

I'm not really sure on the right answer on this one because there is evidence on the beliefs.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

I'm not really sure on the right answer on this one because there is evidence on the beliefs.

 

 

Well....it depends on what you consider evidence I guess, and if the claim is that ich can be actually dormant versus just existing at low levels, constantly life cycling in the background unseen by us.  There are a ton of anecdotal stories of ich "randomly" and "suddenly" showing up in a tank, but I have never seen a scientific study showing it popping up in controlled conditions where there were quarantine conditions used for all the fish and rock, etc....

 

I 100% believe that people have ich outbreaks after long periods of what they consider to be no ich.  Especially since ich can exist at low levels where we don't notice it on our fish.  For the people that "suddenly" have a visibly infected fish out of nowhere, that could simply be the 12th ich cycle that has occurred, but the first 11 were just low level.  No dormancy involved.  You know what I mean?  It was not dormant at all, it simply was not so bad that we noticed it on the 12th or 24th or 87th life cycle of the parasite.

 

I think for me it all comes down to the claim of "dormant".  I am not quite as opposed to the claim of "it is in all our tanks at all times"  or "it breaks out due to stress".  But even those I would not take as 100% true in all cases since starting with a new tank, dry rock, and QT fish provides no way for the parasite to get into the tank.  Unless it floats in on the air currents like algae spores, which we know isn't how ich works.  Could stress cause the 145th ich life cycle to be especially bad and visible to the naked eye?  For sure!  Does that mean it was dormant for 8 months first?  Nope. 

 

End of my rant.  🙂

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5 minutes ago, paneubert said:

Well....it depends on what you consider evidence I guess, and if the claim is that ich can be actually dormant versus just existing at low levels, constantly life cycling in the background unseen by us.  There are a ton of anecdotal stories of ich "randomly" and "suddenly" showing up in a tank, but I have never seen a scientific study showing it popping up in controlled conditions where there were quarantine conditions used for all the fish and rock, etc....

 

I 100% believe that people have ich outbreaks after long periods of what they consider to be no ich.  Especially since ich can exist at low levels where we don't notice it on our fish.  For the people that "suddenly" have a visibly infected fish out of nowhere, that could simply be the 12th ich cycle that has occurred, but the first 11 were just low level.  No dormancy involved.  You know what I mean?  It was not dormant at all, it simply was not so bad that we noticed it on the 12th or 24th or 87th life cycle of the parasite.

 

I think for me it all comes down to the claim of "dormant".  I am not quite as opposed to the claim of "it is in all our tanks at all times"  or "it breaks out due to stress".  But even those I would not take as 100% true in all cases since starting with a new tank, dry rock, and QT fish provides no way for the parasite to get into the tank.  Unless it floats in on the air currents like algae spores, which we know isn't how ich works.  Could stress cause the 145th ich life cycle to be especially bad and visible to the naked eye?  For sure!  Does that mean it was dormant for 8 months first?  Nope. 

 

End of my rant.  🙂

I think that the reality behind ich just showing up can really be chalked up to it coming in on something added.

 

We cannot see it on corals and inverts but it can come in on it- that's why from day 1 of fallow period you aren't supposed to add anything to prevent reintroduction.

 

So for those who believe it's always present, it may just be that it was reintroduced because unless you qt fish, inverts, corals, and rocks it's pretty hard to be 100%.

 

Now the argument for ich being always present, the only thing that makes me question this belief as possibly true is that tangs are notorious for getting ich when stressed even in tanks that haven't had ich outbreaks and even after they have been qt'd and treated.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

tangs are notorious for getting ich when stressed even in tanks that haven't had ich outbreaks and even after they have been qt'd and treated.

That makes me wonder what it would be about the skin/scales of tangs that make them more prone to successful attachment.  Or what it is about them that makes the impacts of the parasite that much worse.   And on the flip side, what do other fish have that makes them stronger against ich?  These are the eternal questions. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

In my reefer 350, about 5 months old I had 1 clown 1 coral beauty 6 bluegreen chromis. The tank was flourishing then I added 3 bangai cardinals from lfs. Turns out they had ich. I lost the coral beauty and bangai first then my clown a week later to ich. It has now been 3 weeks and the Chromis have no signs of ich. Will the ich always stay dormant in the tank if there is fish in there even if they seem not infected?

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12 minutes ago, Cutter79 said:

In my reefer 350, about 5 months old I had 1 clown 1 coral beauty 6 bluegreen chromis. The tank was flourishing then I added 3 bangai cardinals from lfs. Turns out they had ich. I lost the coral beauty and bangai first then my clown a week later to ich. It has now been 3 weeks and the Chromis have no signs of ich. Will the ich always stay dormant in the tank if there is fish in there even if they seem not infected?

IMHO the answer is a resounding YES. Some fish have thicker slime coats making it more difficult for the trophonts to attach. 75 days seems to be the magic number for fallow systems, although I suppose it is possible for the disease to remain in small numbers even in a fishless system. QT of all new residents is really the only way to hopefully avoid tank contamination. Hyposalinity, which interferes with organism osmosis, is a good way to help eliminate the beast, but copper tx has been proven to kill it completely, especially in the gills where it can reside unnoticed. 

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31 minutes ago, Oldsalt01 said:

IMHO the answer is a resounding YES.

Yeah, I am another vote for absolutely.  Think of it this way....did you notice the ich on the bangai cardinals when you bought or added them?  Probably not.  Same goes for the ich living and life cycling on and off your remaining fish in the tank.

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54 minutes ago, Cutter79 said:

In my reefer 350, about 5 months old I had 1 clown 1 coral beauty 6 bluegreen chromis. The tank was flourishing then I added 3 bangai cardinals from lfs. Turns out they had ich. I lost the coral beauty and bangai first then my clown a week later to ich. It has now been 3 weeks and the Chromis have no signs of ich. Will the ich always stay dormant in the tank if there is fish in there even if they seem not infected?

Yes.

 

Ich needs a host.

 

The only way to 100% free a tank of ich would be an 8 week fallow period.

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I don’t know of any studies that prove one way or another that the organism can survive by parasitizing snails or crustaceans. Once the fish vector is removed I don’t believe the organism can survive.

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4 minutes ago, Oldsalt01 said:

I don’t know of any studies that prove one way or another that the organism can survive by parasitizing snails or crustaceans. Once the fish vector is removed I don’t believe the organism can survive.

The cysts survive for a certain period of time. That's why it can be introduced into a tank via corals and inverts but there is no way of knowing if they are attached to these.

 

That's also why you can never be 100% safe from it entering your tank without qt corals and inverts for 8 weeks.

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11 minutes ago, Oldsalt01 said:

parasitizing snails or crustaceans

Like clown said, I bet the cysts would be able to travel anywhere the water is wet.  But I don't think there is much of a chance of ich living on snails or crustaceans.  Maybe the snails since they have a soft accessible area.  But the crustaceans I can't imagine at all due to the exo-skeleton.  I mean....some fish with thick mucous are known to be pretty resistant to ich. So a crab would be on an entirely different level of defense!

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2 hours ago, paneubert said:

Like clown said, I bet the cysts would be able to travel anywhere the water is wet.  But I don't think there is much of a chance of ich living on snails or crustaceans.  Maybe the snails since they have a soft accessible area.  But the crustaceans I can't imagine at all due to the exo-skeleton.  I mean....some fish with thick mucous are known to be pretty resistant to ich. So a crab would be on an entirely different level of defense!

They can come in on anything but only affect fish.

 

It can come in on plugs, rocks, shells, sand, corals, inverts then it become a problem when there is a host(fish).

 

The worst is never knowing if it's on something or not. 

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So to be clear. Before I add any new fish I have to catch and quarantine my remaining fish even if they dont look affected and have no fish in main tank for 8 weeks. After 8 weeks move fish from quarantine to display tank and guarantee the new fish for 4 week? So by xmas I can have my foxface ? lol    

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13 minutes ago, Cutter79 said:

So to be clear. Before I add any new fish I have to catch and quarantine my remaining fish even if they dont look affected and have no fish in main tank for 8 weeks. After 8 weeks move fish from quarantine to display tank and guarantee the new fish for 4 week? So by xmas I can have my foxface ? lol    

For the first part yes.  QT the existing fish out of the tank for 6-8 weeks, treating them with copper while being QT'd.  Not due to the fish needing QT for that long, but due to needing the main tank to have no fish for that long since the cysts in the tank bottom can take that long to hatch and look for a host.  They die very fast if they don't find a host, I believe within about 48 hours. 

 

For the second part where you said "guarantee" about the foxface, but I know you meant QT, you don't need to QT the new fish for 4 weeks.  If you assume they have ich on them when you buy them, and you have copper in your QT tank, you only really need to wait the amount of time that the ich parasite lives on the host before it drops off and turns into a hibernating cyst on the floor of the tank.  I don't recall the exact time-frame for that  But it is less than or equal to two weeks since that is the dosing time range for Cupramine.  The logic is that copper kills the free swimming babies when they hatch, and very quickly.  Some say copper even stops them from hatching to begin with.  So no ich is going to hatch and survive the swim up to infect your fish in QT.

 

If you are in a "rush", and if you had the space in your QT tank for all of them,  I would personally be comfortable QTing existing fish with copper for 3 weeks, then adding a foxface to QT at week 4 , then doing another 2 weeks of copper for a total of 6.  Then wish yourself luck and add them all back to the main tank.  Assuming you only want to wait 6 weeks and not 8.  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, paneubert said:

For the first part yes.  QT the existing fish out of the tank for 6-8 weeks, treating them with copper while being QT'd.  Not due to the fish needing QT for that long, but due to needing the main tank to have no fish for that long since the cysts in the tank bottom can take that long to hatch and look for a host.  They die very fast if they don't find a host, I believe within about 48 hours. 

 

For the second part where you said "guarantee" about the foxface, but I know you meant QT, you don't need to QT the new fish for 4 weeks.  If you assume they have ich on them when you buy them, and you have copper in your QT tank, you only really need to wait the amount of time that the ich parasite lives on the host before it drops off and turns into a hibernating cyst on the floor of the tank.  I don't recall the exact time-frame for that  But it is less than or equal to two weeks since that is the dosing time range for Cupramine.  The logic is that copper kills the free swimming babies when they hatch, and very quickly.  Some say copper even stops them from hatching to begin with.  So no ich is going to hatch and survive the swim up to infect your fish in QT.

 

If you are in a "rush", and if you had the space in your QT tank for all of them,  I would personally be comfortable QTing existing fish with copper for 3 weeks, then adding a foxface to QT at week 4 , then doing another 2 weeks of copper for a total of 6.  Then wish yourself luck and add them all back to the main tank.  Assuming you only want to wait 6 weeks and not 8.  

 

 

Thank you. My QT tank is fluval edge 6 gal. I dont know if I would be able to keep up with the water changes that would be required with 6 chromis and a foxface lol. Thanks for your help I love coming to this site when I have questions

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Yeah.....I would not want a fox-face in 6 gallons, even just for QT.  If I were you I would wait for a Petco dollar per gallon sale and at least get a 10, 15, or 20g tank for QT.  Or figure out a Rubbermaid bin or plastic tub you could use.  Just need something with some volume. 

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10 minutes ago, paneubert said:

Yeah.....I would not want a fox-face in 6 gallons, even just for QT.  If I were you I would wait for a Petco dollar per gallon sale and at least get a 10, 15, or 20g tank for QT.  Or figure out a Rubbermaid bin or plastic tub you could use.  Just need something with some volume. 

I wondered about that. 1 thing i have not read to much about is the tank cycle of a QT. I dont think you can grab a cheap tank from the lfs fill with water and throw a $100 fish in there. What are you guys doing for cycling your qt and filtration?

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Your current fish that have been exposed to ich will need to be put into qt and treated to prevent reintroduction of ich unti your display tank.

 

Your display needs to be with no fish minimum 8 weeks.

 

Any new fish should be qt'd for 4 weeks minimum before being added to your display once it has gone through the fallow period.

 

Some ppl choose to just observe new fish for 4 weeks and if signs of illness occur then they treat them.

Some choose to pretreat all new fish in qt.

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4 minutes ago, Cutter79 said:

I wondered about that. 1 thing i have not read to much about is the tank cycle of a QT. I dont think you can grab a cheap tank from the lfs fill with water and throw a $100 fish in there. What are you guys doing for cycling your qt and filtration?

I took water from my existing tank to start my qt. (My fish have no disease)

 

I put a bio sponge in the filter and added used floss from my current tank to get the sponge started for bio filter.

 

I added liverock from my tank to the qt because I only observe new fish and so far have needed to not treat any of them because once you treat a tank with liverock with per say copper, the liverock is pretty much garbage after.

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4 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

I took water from my existing tank to start my qt. (My fish have no disease)

 

I put a bio sponge in the filter and added used floss from my current tank to get the sponge started for bio filter.

 

I added liverock from my tank to the qt because I only observe new fish and so far have needed to not treat any of them because once you treat a tank with liverock with per say copper, the liverock is pretty much garbage after.

Copy that! 

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15 minutes ago, Cutter79 said:

What are you guys doing for cycling your qt and filtration?

I bought a new tank and then heavily dosed it with bottled bacteria while also sticking some sponges in there for the bacteria to colonize.  I eventually (only took some time because shipping was delayed) added an air pump powered "foam/sponge" filter since that sucks water thru the sponge and super charges the bacterial growth and processing of waste.  Also keeps the water very well oxygenated. 

 

Added a heater and a small power head.  Also have a cheap light and a cheap HOB filter that I can add carbon to when I want to remove medications (or copper).  Pretty basic setup.  No sand or rock or anything.  Some plastic hiding tubes, and the sponges have a hole thru them like a doughnut, so the fish hide in there as well. 

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