Are we over complicating tanks?

[Subsea]

@HarryPotter

 

[Corals may thrive in a (relativly) sterile environment equally to in a biologicaly diverse one. Are we talking diversity for tank stability or coral health?]

 

Considering the complex biochemistry going on within the coral biomass, there is nothing sterile about that environment .  I am glad that you included, relatively.  Interesting that you seperate diversity for tank stability or coral health.   In your scenario

coral is the priority.  In my use of diversity, neither coral or fish are the first priority.  I focus on diversity in the substrate that feeds the reef.  My end game is a diverse population of filter feeders:  flame scallops, sea apples, and NPS like Catcus Corals and deep water gorgonians.

 

Viva la difference.

 

[HarryPotter]

49 minutes ago, Subsea said:

@HarryPotter

 

[Corals may thrive in a (relativly) sterile environment equally to in a biologicaly diverse one. Are we talking diversity for tank stability or coral health?]

 

Considering the complex biochemistry going on within the coral biomass, there is nothing sterile about that environment .  I am glad that you included, relatively.  Interesting that you seperate diversity for tank stability or coral health.   In your scenario

coral is the priority.  In my use of diversity, neither coral or fish are the first priority.  I focus on diversity in the substrate that feeds the reef.  My end game is a diverse population of filter feeders:  flame scallops, sea apples, and NPS like Catcus Corals and deep water gorgonians.

 

Viva la difference.

 

 

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻👌🏼 😄

 

Makes sense to me, and viva la difference! 

 

For example the 300g is dry rock+ live sand. Within two weeks coralline spots were starting.  Then over the weekend I added these three walling hammers, which even after being double dipped, de-plugged, and scrubbed, bring a couple other colors of coralline and sponges, as well as probably dozens more invisible-to-the-eye organisms.

 

I prefer dry rock because it is more budget friendly, easier to scape, and your tank starts off with ONLY what you want. But if you are specifically seeking biodiversity, live rock is without a doubt the way to go. 

 

[mitten_reef]

 

1 hour ago, HarryPotter said:

Dry rock for the win 😬😝. Coralline still grows, bacteria finds its way in. Just gotta be more patient! 

 

So so many tanks I see locally are covered with Aptasia. Maybe that’s because local fish stores throws dry rock into their sumps, allow it to brown up and get infested with Aptasia, and sell it as “live rock”. 

 

I dont think there is something “missing” from tanks that were started with dry rock. Some biodiversity comes with every coral you add, and although biodiversity is theoretically what you want for stability, it is not the “recipe” for success.  Corals may thrive in a (relativly) sterile environment equally to in a biologicaly diverse one. Are we talking diversity for tank stability or coral health? I

I dont think there is something “missing” from tanks that were started with dry rock. The things you're missing tend to be those you usually cannot see.  Some biodiversity comes with every coral you add, and although biodiversity is theoretically what you want for stability, it is not the “recipe” for success. <<Completely agree with this. But your biodiversity will still be limited to where those corals come from (wild harvest > aquaculture/coral vendor > LFS/another hobbyist's tank, IMO). AND it may take more time to establish. Corals may thrive in a (relativly) sterile environment equally to in a biologicaly diverse one. << This is the catch-22 that had been catching many newbies off guard. They tend to not understand patience and how maturity affect this micro/nano-ecosystem.  Relatively sterile environment also need to worry about addition of supplement/nutrition and removal of waste created by the excess of those addition. It's not that it can't be done, balancing the act is just a bit harder in the beginning, or for the beginners.  Hence why many "brand-new" tanks struggle more than upgrade tank, per my few years of observation on this forums.  Are we talking diversity for tank stability or coral health? I I think we should always look from both angles for a healthy long-term solution.  

 

My thought in red from the quoted text.  Like @seabass had said, I can hardly argue with your success on the tanks that you'd set up - clearly it's working!  

 

Stepping back a little bit too, what we use to set up our tanks have much less impact on the long-term success, when compared to the day-to-day husbandry of the tank.  It's the latter that keeps things going.        

[metrokat]

I've always used uncured rock from the ocean to start my tanks. This current tank was the first time I started with dry rock and it drove me batty. To make it worse I actually did have a fresh shipment which was in the sump but I never connected the DT which was cycling to the sump which had the ocean rocks. Argh. The benefits of ocean rock far outweigh the bad hombres in my opinion after using fresh ocean rocks since I started in this hobby.

 

The new shapes of Caribsea rock and the flat pieces of marco rocks, and branch rock from RRR won me over to make a dry scape but I should have connected my ocean rocks to the whole system.

[dnadrifter]

Complete newbie here....just in the learning/researching mode for the day I decide to take the plunge.  I've already bought into some form of the "simple approach" because if I don't I will never stick with it due to taking too much time.  (I am already going to have to start in our laundry room to convince my wife I can do it and it will be nice enough, not smell and quiet enough to put in the office....heaven forbid the family room.  Sorry off topic)

 

Problem is, I have changed my mind like 5 times between live and dry rock just from reading this thread alone.  :-)   I was really looking forward to someday aqua-scaping with dry rock.  I am also personally not the biggest fan of the look of live rock with all the green algae all over it like the gulfliverock link subsea posted.

 

So, if one starts with dry, what is the best way of adding biodiversity as safely as possible?....because I can also completely buy into the stability of a bio-diverse system. What are the options?  Is "real reef rock" or the caribsea "life rock" a middle ground?

[seabass]

Real Reef Rock might be considered a compromise.  Although I'm not sure what it's actually exposed to (besides nitrifying bacteria).

 

There are steps that I took to add diversity to my sand and dry rocks.  This includes actual live sand (sometimes called live sand activator), or bits of actual live rock rubble (or even some live rock).  Detritivore and pod kits (sometimes sold as live food), or even macro algae that has fauna in it.  Live phytoplankton is often helpful to support your new fauna.

 

Some sites in no particular order (I'm sure there are many more).

http://www.ipsf.com

https://inlandaquatics.com (store not currently online)

https://www.reefcleaners.org

https://www.live-plants.com

http://www.garf.org

https://www.liveaquaria.com

https://aquariumdepot.com/live-food

http://www.tampabaysaltwater.com

 

Sometimes live rock sellers will sell the crud from the bottom of their pools.  Or if you have a good and trusted LFS, they might be willing to sell you crud from their curing tanks (or even a cup of sand from an Ich free display tank).  Local reef clubs can also be a good source.  Keep in mind that most bacteria in a bottle products don't contain diverse strains.  And it can help if you don't introduce predators until your additions can become established.

 

Oh, and if you think live rock is expensive, some of these kits +shipping will make you blush.  That, and the fact that you don't have the diversity to support the diversity that you are buying.  It can be frustrating, expensive, and take a long time.

 

^ complicated

(while live rock is simple)

 

But like you said, there are reasons to go with dry rock.  Creating an intricate aquascape is one.

[squamptonbc]

On 9/10/2018 at 6:25 PM, RayWhisperer said:

Kats kinda got it. 

 

Some of you may know, I’m really a K.I.S.S. kinda guy. But, I have to admit, I do love me some gadgets. That said, I like to keep those simple, too. I use a 2 channel doser. What for? 1 channel is for kalk (yeah, it’s simpler than 2 part), the other is for a mix of mag and stront. That makes up my top off system. Kill 2 birds with one stone. My lights..... well, I gotta admit, I do love the sunrise/sunset/ ramping of LED’s. Honestly, for growth and color, I’d rather have MH. But, between heat, power consumption, and programmability of LED’s, it’s kinda a toss up (usually won by the LED fixtures.) Not to mention bulb replacement. Plus, quality MH bulbs are getting pretty scarce these days. 

 

I do have a programmer that could run most things, but in reality, it’s too complicated for me. It’s become a glorified heater controller / surge protector. Yeah, it’s a waste. But a heater controller was damn near the same cost. So, why not? 

 

I have a nice skimmer. Still haven’t set it up yet. I haven’t used a skimmer in years. Why start now? It’s just one more thing I’d have to deal with. I run a tiny amount of GFO through a homemade reactor when phos starts to climb. Beyond that, carbon, floss, and water changes. However, I haven’t run GFO on this tank yet. No reason to, yet.

 

I suppose some might consider my actual tank as complicated, but it makes sense to me. I plan out a tank. I don’t always stick to that plan (admit it. We all do that.) this one is new. I’m trying out some new ideas I’ve been tossing around in my head for years. Oddly enough, I see Subsea is doing something similar. Which, makes me feel my thoughts were on the right track. It’s not that I haven’t done some of these things before, I’ve just never set up a system that is in part, based on these ideas. It’s not groundbreaking stuff, it’s just simple biological ideas, and basing a tank, in part off that. 

 

One thing i will throw out there, that is bound to ruffle some feathers. (Hell, I don’t really care. If you’re offended by my statement, you need some thicker skin.) I think all of you setting up whole systems from dead rock are nuts. I’ll say it again. There are a thousand ways to run a reef. Don’t think my way is the only way. Do what works for you. But, I’ll take the few odd bad HH, over bacteria in a bottle any day. It’s what I’ve been doing for around 30 years, and I’m sticking with it. However, I’m now a big fan of the man made or mined rock, stuck in the ocean for a few years. Way fresher than even air shipped indo, or Fiji rock ever was. And you can’t beat a 0 to 3 day cycle. 

 

As as far as my tank goes, it’s still just starting off. I don’t know if it’ll work out, so I’m not posting about it in any detail. If it does go over well, I’ll be happy to throw out all the details. However, until I have at least some anecdotal evidence as to it’s viability on a somewhat long term basis.... my lips are sealed. Still, don’t expect a tank thread from me, EVER.

 

 

 

 

I will agree with you on the live rock, the tank I set up in 2007 with all live rock from the ocean had so much life, so much variety, way more variety then I could possibly ever add myself.

 

Now as live rock is more or less a thing of the past in my region and the closest thing is real reef rock which I do not like, too uniform, just man made rock they tossed into land based tanks, still little variety of life beyond bacteria, but current tank, nowhere near the same level of life the tank 10 years ago had in it from using live rock from the ocean.
 

I have no problem with man made rock or land rock that spent time in the ocean though, I would pay a small premium for it if it were possible, but up here north of the 49th Florida rock isn't available anywhere that I am aware of, and the stores that do sell live rock, well its just mostly boat rock with limited to no life they receive dry, and toss into aquariums and call it live rock.

 

I am tempted at times to just move across the border live on the US side so I can get some live rock......lol

 

Sometimes it sucks being in this hobby and seeing all the awesome things you all have in the US. 

 

Worst I ever got with live rock hitch hiker wise was a few pest anemones, but a peppermint shrimp and about 20 minutes a week for 3 weeks took care of that problem and it never returned.

 

The good ole days....lol

[Ebn]

Dry rock (Tonga branches) in current setup and wouldn't do it any differently. 

 

As for over complicating things, yes, for the most part. Some of it is definitely needed though, such as quality light, flow, input/output for the system.

 

For me, my system is pretty simple. 87 gallon tank (100 or so total volume with sump) sps dominant tank with very little rockwork. Approximately 25# of dry Tonga branches was used (you can't find live Tonga any more) and along with 1 marinepure brick and 1 plate. No carbon, GFO, or socks used. I feed 5-6 cubes of frozen into the tank on weekdays and 2x pellets, via Apex AFS, on the weekends when I'm not in the office. Pretty heavy input into the tank due to fish load and food added to the tank, which is pulled out by my BK skimmer. Other than that for nutrient export, a 5 gallon water change is performed weekly when I remember. Been stretching this out since my nutrient levels are still low on this 5 month old tank. 

 

Light is LED, but I don't tinker with the levels. I just unpacked it from the box, tossed it over the tank, and then set it on the sps mode that the light shipped with. It does its own thing and I'm happy with the results. Flow is handled by two Jebao crossflows which sits on the upper opposite ends of the tank. They're not sync'ed or anything. Just on and battling each other through the day as they produce flow which crashes against each other. 

 

This tank is high energy and the corals suck up both nutrients and alk like there's no tomorrow. Currently maxing out on the Kamoer at 120 mL/min of effluent (need to switch over to Reborn media instead of bulk) through a calcium reactor since it became expensive and time consuming to use 2 part. ATO is automated, which tops off approximately 0.6 gallon/day and I dump a 5 gallon bucket of RO water into the reservoir every couple of weeks.

 

Keeping things simple is a measurement of equipment, methodology, and to me, time/convenience spent on the tank. Most of my time is spent on feeding and looking at the fish through the week. The equipment and the methodology used provides me with the convenience to enjoy the tank. 

[Clown79]

I think in general most of us buy things because marketing is really well done in the industry. Most is not needed.

 

I think  peer pressure online is another thing many ppl deal with. If you don't do things a certain way and buy certain equipment you are often not part of the "clique", sometimes totally shunned. It can be very high school like.

 

 

Honestly, after trying many types of lights, powerheads, pumps- they all do the job.

 

My cheap light fixtures have been growing corals as well as the name brand one and the cheap hydor powerheads did just as good of a job as my expensive brands.

 

In the end, I have found less fussing, less stressing, less trying to perfect things often works out for the better.

 

I wish I had known all this yrs ago when I started. 

[squamptonbc]

The clique part can be so true, I see a lot of that in a red sea group towards those who don't buy into/use the entire red sea branded stuff. I really like ESV 2 part, why would I use Red Sea just because I have a tank made by them?

 

Keep in mind just because something is $$$ doesn't mean its quality, we consumers have been convinced by companies that more $$$ is better quality to their advantage and while this might be true for some items, its not true for every item.
 

[seabass]

32 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

I think  peer pressure online is another thing many ppl deal with. If you don't do things a certain way and buy certain equipment you are often not part of the "clique", sometimes totally shunned. It can be very high school like.

Really?  Here on Nano-Reef? 

[Clown79]

41 minutes ago, seabass said:

Really?  Here on Nano-Reef? 

No. Not so much here. Nano is like a whole different world.

 

Other forums. They can be very cut throat.

 

Especially with new hobbyists.

[RayWhisperer]

6 hours ago, squamptonbc said:

The clique part can be so true, I see a lot of that in a red sea group towards those who don't buy into/use the entire red sea branded stuff. I really like ESV 2 part, why would I use Red Sea just because I have a tank made by them?

 

Keep in mind just because something is $$$ doesn't mean its quality, we consumers have been convinced by companies that more $$$ is better quality to their advantage and while this might be true for some items, its not true for every item.
 

I don’t know for sure, but chances are, most of the Red Sea line is just rebranded Fritz products. In fact, most companies probably do that. ESV is one of the few that I know make their own line.

7 hours ago, Clown79 said:

5 hours ago, Clown79 said:

No. Not so much here. Nano is like a whole different world.

 

Other forums. They can be very cut throat.

 

Especially with new hobbyists.

 

Oh, it’s here, too. I don’t think any less, either. Just sort of different. I’ll even drop a couple of names as examples. Metokat, and HarryPotter. Don’t take it wrong, guys.  You are both fantastic and talented reefers. Which is what much of your forum presence is due to. Plus, you both seem like really nice people. I say seem, only because I haven’t actually met either of you. But you’ve gotta admit, you are like the prom king and queen of the reefing forums. At least here, I can’t say for other forums. 

 

I mean that in the nicest way possible:)

[seabass]

31 minutes ago, RayWhisperer said:

I mean that in the nicest way possible:)

 

"Woah woah, I said with all due respect".

- Ricky Bobby, Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Ricky Bobby (2006)

 

IDK Ray, you're kind of a rock star in my book. 

[RayWhisperer]

Yeah, a legend in my own mind.

[HarryPotter]

Fair enough @RayWhisperer. I’m just a ridiculously bored & somewhat awkward student. I surf reef forums in class and post photos I took the day before. I like to think I contribute, but acknowledge that there must be a better use of my down-time somewhere.  1200 days on NR since May 2015,  20k posts. Jeezus. I need a girlfriend. 

 

I’m definitly more kind in person than on forums tho 😂

[Nano sapiens]

13 minutes ago, RayWhisperer said:

Yeah, a legend in my own mind.

Well, ain't that true for all of us  😏

[RayWhisperer]

Honestly, Harry. I say a lot of smart assed comments, but I do respect you both, and you both contribute... a lot. As far as being bored and awkward, we all are. I’m a nerd, I know it, and I’m fine with it. 

 

Edit. I expect an angry text from Kat sometime soon because of that other post.

[vlangel]

17 hours ago, Clown79 said:

 

 

I think  peer pressure online is another thing many ppl deal with. If you don't do things a certain way and buy certain equipment you are often not part of the "clique", sometimes totally shunned. It can be very high school like.

 

 

 

I suppose there is something to feeling peer pressure but mostly I think its in our own minds.  I remember when I first joined forums (and I came late to the party because I am a bit older and not computer savvy) and I was very intimidated to post anything.  I knew my methods were old school and I imagined them to be percieved as outdated.  In reality however, folks were nice to me and it did not seem to matter that my first tank on here had T5s, rio powerheads, a HOB overflow , was skimmerless and I used tap water.  In fact some folks were genuinely surprised and complimentary that I ran a tank so simply.  If there is peer pressure and shunning, I have not experienced it.

[Nano sapiens]

3 hours ago, vlangel said:

If there is peer pressure and shunning, I have not experienced it.

I concur.  IME, NR has the least peer pressure of all the major reef keeping sites.  Perhaps being focused on small reef aquariums is the reason as many younger folks that are new to reef keeping drop in and, being new, tend to be more open to various reef keeping possibilities.

[A Little Blue]

13 hours ago, HarryPotter said:

Fair enough @RayWhisperer. I’m just a ridiculously bored & somewhat awkward student. I surf reef forums in class and post photos I took the day before. I like to think I contribute, but acknowledge that there must be a better use of my down-time somewhere.  1200 days on NR since May 2015,  20k posts. Jeezus. I need a girlfriend. 

 

I’m definitly more kind in person than on forums tho 😂

Haven’t you heard, nice guys finish last. Just saying. 😏

[metrokat]

18 hours ago, RayWhisperer said:

Oh, it’s here, too. I don’t think any less, either. Just sort of different. I’ll even drop a couple of names as examples. Metokat, and HarryPotter. Don’t take it wrong, guys.  You are both fantastic and talented reefers. Which is what much of your forum presence is due to. Plus, you both seem like really nice people. I say seem, only because I haven’t actually met either of you. But you’ve gotta admit, you are like the prom king and queen of the reefing forums. At least here, I can’t say for other forums. 

 

I mean that in the nicest way possible:)

 

18 hours ago, RayWhisperer said:

Honestly, Harry. I say a lot of smart assed comments, but I do respect you both, and you both contribute... a lot. As far as being bored and awkward, we all are. I’m a nerd, I know it, and I’m fine with it. 

 

Edit. I expect an angry text from Kat sometime soon because of that other post.

WTF RAY!

[metrokat]

[ReefWeeds]

18 hours ago, RayWhisperer said:

I don’t know for sure, but chances are, most of the Red Sea line is just rebranded Fritz products. In fact, most companies probably do that. ESV is one of the few that I know make their own line.

Oh, it’s here, too. I don’t think any less, either. Just sort of different. I’ll even drop a couple of names as examples. Metokat, and HarryPotter. Don’t take it wrong, guys.  You are both fantastic and talented reefers. Which is what much of your forum presence is due to. Plus, you both seem like really nice people. I say seem, only because I haven’t actually met either of you. But you’ve gotta admit, you are like the prom king and queen of the reefing forums. At least here, I can’t say for other forums. 

 

I mean that in the nicest way possible:)

Red Sea is most definitely not a rebranded fritz product - I would be cautious about making claims like that without backing it up. 

 

And as for calling out members, both of which I consider good friends, good people and exceptional reefers - I don’t know how that can be taken in any sort of “nice” way. It’s like saying “no offense intended” to give reasoning why someone says something not so nice. 

 

Both Harry and Kat are big supporters of this forum and not “cliquey”. They’re both knowledable and continually, unselfishly help other reefers, me included. 

 

They are tbe opposite definition of clique actually as both are very welcoming to others and big proponents of getting others involved. 

 

clique

klēk,klik/

noun

1. a small group of people, with shared interests or other features in common, who spend time together and do not readily allow others to join them.

   synonyms:

   coterie, set, circle, ring, in-crowd, group;More

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

1 minute ago, metrokat said:

That's awesome lol