"Shocking" electrical issue...

[paneubert]

Ok folks.  What in the hell.....

 

I am reading stray voltage in my tank, but it is acting in the opposite manner I would expect.  Anyone able to work this one out for me?

 

If I am touching the wire hanging harness that I have mounted in the ceiling at the same time I touch the tank water, I get zapped.  This was my first indication of an issue.  Haha.  Multimeter black probe in the grounding hole of an extension cord with red probe in tank shows around 25V.  Which seems to be "Acceptable" voltage according to the threads I can find online and most likely from induced voltage from my magnetic pumps.  Unavoidable.  

 

Here is where it gets weird.  If I turn off all my electrical equipment, it jumps to 33V........  I was trying the "unplug one item at a time" method and all that seemed to happen was an INCREASE in voltage.  I literally had everything unplugged and it was still reading 33V.  When I turned back on all my sump equipment and in-tank pumps, it drops to 25V.

 

Hypothetically when I cut my return pump power and the flow of water up and down cut, there should either have been no electrical path from my sump to my display, or a very weak/infrequent connection due to salt film in my tubing.  Most of my equipment is in my sump, so I would have expected the voltage in the display tank to rise not only due to powering on a lot of stuff in my sump, but also due to the electrical loop created by my overflow and return tubes being filled with water.

 

So....... ideas? 

[dandelion]

Have you tried measuring the neutral-to-ground voltage?

[paneubert]

2 minutes ago, dandelion said:

Have you tried measuring the neutral-to-ground voltage?

How do I do that?  Would it just be sticking the red in the ground and the black in the tank?  I have a pretty feature loaded multimeter, so if it is sticking one probe in one spot and the other in another, I probably have the correct setting on my meter to read it.

[paneubert]

It was getting late last night, so I am not sure I was thinking straight, but another piece of info is I did not see and current when I tried to measure that. Don't know if that helps diagnose. I am going to start fresh tonight logging what I see with various states of equipment powered on and off. Maybe that will help. 

[seabass]

Try testing the light hanger to ground (with light on, off, and unplugged).

[paneubert]

29 minutes ago, seabass said:

Try testing the light hanger to ground (with light on, off, and unplugged).

Good plan. I have a nagging suspicion that my lights shocked me years ago when I had this tank up. But I might be fabricating that memory. Plus.....most of my equipment is the same as last time.  So it could still be a pump or heater. Maybe the lights are just a really good ground and that why I feel it strongest when bridging them and the water. 

[seabass]

1 minute ago, paneubert said:

Maybe the lights are just a really good ground and that why I feel it strongest when bridging them and the water.

Possibly, but I'm thinking that the current is coming from the lights, and the tank water is acting as a ground.

[paneubert]

Just now, seabass said:

Possibly, but I'm thinking that the current is coming from the lights, and the tank water is acting as a ground.

Yeah. I sort of want to grab a grounded wire and then touch my water.  Or somehow grab a wet metal kitchen faucet and touch the tank. No shock means it is the lights. But shock means my wife yells at me.  Last night was fun. I'm like "come here and touch this babe!" Not risky at all!

[paneubert]

I used to play with a Tesla coil in high school. 250 thousand volts. This is nothing!  Yeah, the Tesla coil was like 1 millionth of an amp. But still. Haha. 

[paneubert]

If you dont hear from me in an hour.....

[seabass]

 

Use your multimeter.

[ffoott]

SOMEBODY CALL 911!!!

[paneubert]

4 minutes ago, seabass said:

 

Use your multimeter.

Already dead. 

[seabass]

R U still there? 

[Where'sWally]

Have you tied a multimeter with a lower input impedance?  Sometimes with standard DMMs the high input impedance can fool you by showing high values(called ghost voltage), but something with a LoZ terminal of function (Fluke 117, and Fluke 289) have this.  The LoZ function reduces high readings by provide a low impedance load on the measurement circuit.

[seabass]

Paneubert?

[1891Bro]

1 hour ago, Where'sWally said:

Have you tied a multimeter with a lower input impedance?  Sometimes with standard DMMs the high input impedance can fool you by showing high values(called ghost voltage), but something with a LoZ terminal of function (Fluke 117, and Fluke 289) have this.  The LoZ function reduces high readings by provide a low impedance load on the measurement circuit.

Regular people aren’t gonna spend money on Fluke. I’m not gonna spend money on them. I can just steal one from whatever wormo Kontractor I’m working for. 

 

2 hours ago, paneubert said:

I used to play with a Tesla coil in high school. 250 thousand volts. This is nothing!  Yeah, the Tesla coil was like 1 millionth of an amp. But still. Haha. 

What does that even mean? You can take a ####zillion (this is a new unit Measuring potential, look it up) volts as long as there’s no path to ground. 

[1891Bro]

1 hour ago, seabass said:

Paneubert?

He’s fine. Not any smarter though. 

[paneubert]

54 minutes ago, seabass said:

Paneubert?

I am alive!

 

Ok....so...forgot to measure any of this with the lights on.  Haha.  These are all with the lights "off".  What I mean by "off" is that the literal rocker switches on the fixture are in the ON position, but the cords for the lights are plugged into Wi-Fi enabled timers/switches that are OFF.  I ASSUME there is a literal switch inside each timer breaking the flow of electricity since......that is how you make a timer function, right?  So let's assume the lights have no power running into their power cords.  

 

With everything (except lights) running/on.  Circulation pumps, ATO, heaters, return pump....

54V - Light fixture to tank water

34V - LIght fixture to ground plug of an extension cord

24V - Tank water to ground plug of an extension cord

 

With the power to everything removed from the wall outlet of my house.  Literally unplugged my two power strips from the wall.

 

12V - Light fixture to tank water.  No shock when I touch things.  42V drop.  Good sign that my problem is power somehow flowing to the light fixture, even when light timers are off (but timers still plugged in to power)?

3V - LIght fixture to ground plug of an extension cord.  31V drop.  Another good reason to believe my problem is somehow related to my lights?

14V - Tank water to ground plug of an extension cord.  So a 10V drop by unplugging all my stuff from the wall......

 

But!  I question my multimeter a bit since my notes seem to say I accidentally repeated one measurement, the LIght fixture to ground plug.  The second time I did it with eveything unplugged I got 8V.  So.....3V and then 8V with no apparent change to anything receicving or bein depried of power.

 

Long story short....I think I have 24V in my tank as one "problem".  I think I ALSO have a higher voltage issue in my lights that prompts the "shock" I felt, causing me to investigate all this to begin with.  I bet if I had measured the voltage before I even pulled my lights out of storage, I would have seen 24V in my tank.

 

Sound right?

 

 

 

[paneubert]

1 hour ago, Where'sWally said:

Have you tied a multimeter with a lower input impedance?  Sometimes with standard DMMs the high input impedance can fool you by showing high values(called ghost voltage), but something with a LoZ terminal of function (Fluke 117, and Fluke 289) have this.  The LoZ function reduces high readings by provide a low impedance load on the measurement circuit.

I have not.  I am working with a "Mastech MS8268 Series Digital AC/DC Auto/Manual Range Digital Multimeter".  From Amazon.  Says...

"AC/DC 1000V/10a 200kHz 200Uf 40Mohm relative measurement hfe diode check continuity"

[paneubert]

7 minutes ago, 1891Bro said:

 

 

What does that even mean? You can take a ####zillion (this is a new unit Measuring potential, look it up) volts as long as there’s no path to ground. 

Means with a Tesla Coil, the point is the higher the voltage, the lower the amperage.  Hence why we could make a chain of people holding hands, have the last person grab a metal desk, and then have the first person send 250 thousand volts thru their finger and shock the hell out of anyone who broke the chain (and the person touching the desk).  Haha.  Holding a pencil and having the voltage enter your hand thru the graphite was not pleasant either.  Or if you had on metal rings on your fingers.

[1891Bro]

2 minutes ago, paneubert said:

I am alive!

 

Ok....so...forgot to measure any of this with the lights on.  Haha.  These are all with the lights "off".  What I mean by "off" is that the literal rocker switches on the fixture are in the ON position, but the cords for the lights are plugged into Wi-Fi enabled timers/switches that are OFF.  I ASSUME there is a literal switch inside each timer breaking the flow of electricity since......that is how you make a timer function, right?  So let's assume the lights have no power running into their power cords.  

 

With everything (except lights) running/on.  Circulation pumps, ATO, heaters, return pump....

54V - Light fixture to tank water

34V - LIght fixture to ground plug of an extension cord

24V - Tank water to ground plug of an extension cord

 

With the power to everything removed from the wall outlet of my house.  Literally unplugged my two power strips from the wall.

 

12V - Light fixture to tank water.  No shock when I touch things.  42V drop.  Good sign that my problem is power somehow flowing to the light fixture, even when light timers are off (but timers still plugged in to power)?

3V - LIght fixture to ground plug of an extension cord.  31V drop.  Another good reason to believe my problem is somehow related to my lights?

14V - Tank water to ground plug of an extension cord.  So a 10V drop by unplugging all my stuff from the wall......

 

But!  I question my multimeter a bit since my notes seem to say I accidentally repeated one measurement, the LIght fixture to ground plug.  The second time I did it with eveything unplugged I got 8V.  So.....3V and then 8V with no apparent change to anything receicving or bein depried of power.

 

Long story short....I think I have 24V in my tank as one "problem".  I think I ALSO have a higher voltage issue in my lights that prompts the "shock" I felt, causing me to investigate all this to begin with.  I bet if I had measured the voltage before I even pulled my lights out of storage, I would have seen 24V in my tank.

 

Sound right?

 

 

 

No. 

And the earlier post referring to black and red leads on the DMM tell me you don’t know how to use it either. Reading will be the same with either a positive or negative value depending on what you’re reading. 

[1891Bro]

3 minutes ago, paneubert said:

Means with a Tesla Coil, the point is the higher the voltage, the lower the amperage.  Hence why we could make a chain of people holding hands, have the last person grab a metal desk, and then have the first person send 250 thousand volts thru their finger and shock the hell out of anyone who broke the chain (and the person touching the desk).  Haha.  Holding a pencil and having the voltage enter your hand thru the graphite was not pleasant either.  Or if you had on metal rings on your fingers.

Fine. I understand that. It’s voltage. Same as a stun gun. Without the Amps it’s harmless. Maybe make you piss or shit yourself, like a stun gun. But harmless. Unless you have a pacemaker. That’s different though.   Something being made

of metal doesn’t equal a path to ground either. 

[seabass]

Now that I know you're OK.

[paneubert]

Just now, 1891Bro said:

Fine. I understand that. It’s voltage. Same as a stun gun. Without the Amps it’s harmless. Maybe make you piss or shit yourself, like a stun gun. But harmless. Unless you have a pacemaker. That’s different though. 

Yeah, we were dumb high school kids and our techer was ex-Navy.  So there ya go.