Fish keep dying? Mystery...

[Rathje70]

Hello all! I have a question for the community that I wanted to get some feedback on.

 

I have a three month old Nuvo 40 that I have been struggling to keep fish alive in. My corals (soft and SPS) are thriving so it has been a bit of mystery to me. I do weekly 5 gallon water changes with RO/DI water. The fish I have had are a sixline wrasse, black ice clown, and a purple firefish. They seem to do fine immediately and then they suddenly are passing away. The only pattern I have noticed is that it generally happens when I am gone for a day or two and am not feeding. Is it really possible that not feeding them for a day or two would cause this?

 

My specs are as follows:

• Nuvo 40
• Running ROX Carbon and GFO
• Vortech MP10
• Weekly water changes with RO/DI
• Nitrates - 0
• Nitrites - 0
• Ammonia - 0
• PH - 8.0
• Salinity - 1.026

 

Any thoughts here?

 

 

 

[WV Reefer]

5 minutes ago, Rathje70 said:

Hello all! I have a question for the community that I wanted to get some feedback on.

 

I have a three month old Nuvo 40 that I have been struggling to keep fish alive in. My corals (soft and SPS) are thriving so it has been a bit of mystery to me. I do weekly 5 gallon water changes with RO/DI water. The fish I have had are a sixline wrasse, black ice clown, and a purple firefish. They seem to do fine immediately and then they suddenly are passing away. The only pattern I have noticed is that it generally happens when I am gone for a day or two and am not feeding. Is it really possible that not feeding them for a day or two would cause this?

 

My specs are as follows:

• Nuvo 40
• Running ROX Carbon and GFO
• Vortech MP10
• Weekly water changes with RO/DI
• Nitrates - 0
• Nitrites - 0
• Ammonia - 0
• PH - 8.0
• Salinity - 1.026

 

Any thoughts here?

 

 

 

 

Are all fish from the same store?

[Rathje70]

35 minutes ago, WV Reefer said:

 

Are all fish from the same store?

The fish are from three different stores in the area - all of which are high quality....

[Clown79]

It's not from not feeding for a day or 2.

 

If you have had multiple fish die and then are replaced to only die again- could be a parasite in the tank.

 

You may have originally added a fish that was sick in your tank. Unless the tank goes fallow for a certain period- every other fish added after that, will get infected.

 

Many parasites have different life cycles, just cause we can' see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

 

That's why with parasites there is a fallow period in order to kill the parasite.

 

Most is 6-8 weeks no fish in the tank to kill the parasite in the tank.

 

 

Did you qt any of your fish?

 

 

[markalot]

How heavy do you feed?  I generally overfeed new fish since they are in pretty bad shape regardless of what store they are from.  Having new fish and not feeding could indeed kill them IMO.   

[Rathje70]

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

It's not from not feeding for a day or 2.

 

If you have had multiple fish die and then are replaced to only die again- could be a parasite in the tank.

 

You may have originally added a fish that was sick in your tank. Unless the tank goes fallow for a certain period- every other fish added after that, will get infected.

 

Many parasites have different life cycles, just cause we can' see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

 

That's why with parasites there is a fallow period in order to kill the parasite.

 

Most is 6-8 weeks no fish in the tank to kill the parasite in the tank.

 

 

Did you qt any of your fish?

 

 

I have not quarantined any of my fish before adding them to the tank. Never thought too much about it as I havent had the issues before with prior tanks. Is there anything you can dose to kill parasites in a tank to speed up the period?

 

1 hour ago, markalot said:

How heavy do you feed?  I generally overfeed new fish since they are in pretty bad shape regardless of what store they are from.  Having new fish and not feeding could indeed kill them IMO.   

When at home - I feed brine shrimp once a day. In most cases when the fish have had issues, it has been when I have been gone over a period of time. The last fish (six line wrasse) that passed only went one day without feeding and it was dead the next day. 

[Aurortpa]

Hmm that’s peculiar, +1 @Clown79 with possible parasite. How do you acclimate, do any profilactic baths?  

 

Is this newer rock?...maybe a large predatory hitchiker?  I really don’t think missing a feeding would kill them, typically I do not feed on water change day and I strictly never feed on any day i newly intro a fish.

[Rathje70]

32 minutes ago, Aurortpa said:

Hmm that’s peculiar, +1 @Clown79 with possible parasite. How do you acclimate, do any profilactic baths?  

 

Is this newer rock?...maybe a large predatory hitchiker?  I really don’t think missing a feeding would kill them, typically I do not feed on water change day and I strictly never feed on any day i newly intro a fish.

I acclimate by floating them for 30 and then drip for another 30 or so. I don't do any baths.

 

The base rock has been in there for 90 days.....though I have bought corals incrementally over the last couple of months and with that comes new pieces of rock introduced into the tank.

 

Any thoughts on what I should do here as next steps? I have tried the "let's buy another fish and see what happens" and it hasnt ended well so the more proactive I can be the better..

 

Thanks!

[Aurortpa]

10 minutes ago, Rathje70 said:

I acclimate by floating them for 30 and then drip for another 30 or so. I don't do any baths.

 

The base rock has been in there for 90 days.....though I have bought corals incrementally over the last couple of months and with that comes new pieces of rock introduced into the tank.

 

Any thoughts on what I should do here as next steps? I have tried the "let's buy another fish and see what happens" and it hasnt ended well so the more proactive I can be the better..

 

Thanks!

Mmm, how long is tranpsort, not running into a possible ammonia burn here are we?  It seems since you went to 3 different LFSs, the common variable is probably happening at home.  Working in the pet industry, it is also possible they all have the same source vendor or a common one that has spread something.

 

I am just wondering if there is a chance you have a predator in there maybe, especially you said it starts when the tank isn’t fed, maybe it gets hungry. Maybe look at night with a flashlight and “surprise” suspect hideaways like holes and large crevices.  Just to eliminate that possibility.

 

Otherwise, you’ll have to leave the tank fallow for a couple months to ensure some smaller parasite wasn’t introduced and just wanes without fish.

 

Perhaps another possibility is a foreign contaminant...maybe add more fresh carbon and some purigen or Polyfilter just for good measure.

 

Lastly, you could try to give it another go but I suggest if you can’t setup a QT, at the very least give these fish a bath.  It is not an absolute guarantee by any means BUT I have not any incidents following this regimen. Protocol below:

 

Methylene blue is the safest fish dip I have used and a great value (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00025646W/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_IHSpBbN8B0WD6).  Reef experts and commercial facilities often use methylene blue within their own fish handling protocols. Using this bath procedure is the same concept we use with dipping and bathing new coral.  

 

1. Add drop by drop to temp-matched, half-gallon of RODI freshwater in a container until very dark blue.
2. Bath should be 5-15 minutes if possible, try not to mix any bag water with bath solution.
3. Constantly provide water movement or agitate surface of water with an airstone or baster for O2 (methylene blue depletes O2). You should watch them the whole time anyway. 
4. Because of salinity drop, the fish can sometimes just lay there so don’t be startled BUT typically they are surprisingly calm...my clownfish even seemed to enjoy it. Just carefully watch gills for any distress, or if they were calm and suddenly want to start carpet surfing, bath is done. 
5. Net, rinse in another container with some display water, and plop in display without xfer of any water.

 

I have personally seen critters crawl out of their bodies and squirm away, listless in moments. This is not a guarantee, for if the fish is already extremely deeply infected (as in parasites hidden well within slime coat or body) there is a possibility of an issue, yet significantly less than with no bath at all. I have had no issues with any of the fish I have used this procedure with including, my current 2 clowns, 1 tailspot, 1 springerii, and 1 yellow watchman.

 

 

 

 

[Clown79]

There is no reef safe in tank cure for parasites besides fallow period and no way of knowing without seeing the signs of disease.

[seabass]

13 hours ago, Rathje70 said:

I feed brine shrimp once a day.

Possibly the worst food ever.  It's like feeding your dog candy.  He might like it, but there is little nutritional value.  Switch to mysis and/or try some other frozen or quality flake or pellet.

[Rathje70]

On 7/5/2018 at 9:01 PM, Aurortpa said:

Mmm, how long is tranpsort, not running into a possible ammonia burn here are we?  It seems since you went to 3 different LFSs, the common variable is probably happening at home.  Working in the pet industry, it is also possible they all have the same source vendor or a common one that has spread something.

 

I am just wondering if there is a chance you have a predator in there maybe, especially you said it starts when the tank isn’t fed, maybe it gets hungry. Maybe look at night with a flashlight and “surprise” suspect hideaways like holes and large crevices.  Just to eliminate that possibility.

 

Otherwise, you’ll have to leave the tank fallow for a couple months to ensure some smaller parasite wasn’t introduced and just wanes without fish.

 

Perhaps another possibility is a foreign contaminant...maybe add more fresh carbon and some purigen or Polyfilter just for good measure.

 

Lastly, you could try to give it another go but I suggest if you can’t setup a QT, at the very least give these fish a bath.  It is not an absolute guarantee by any means BUT I have not any incidents following this regimen. Protocol below:

 

Methylene blue is the safest fish dip I have used and a great value (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00025646W/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_IHSpBbN8B0WD6).  Reef experts and commercial facilities often use methylene blue within their own fish handling protocols. Using this bath procedure is the same concept we use with dipping and bathing new coral.  

 

1. Add drop by drop to temp-matched, half-gallon of RODI freshwater in a container until very dark blue.
2. Bath should be 5-15 minutes if possible, try not to mix any bag water with bath solution.
3. Constantly provide water movement or agitate surface of water with an airstone or baster for O2 (methylene blue depletes O2). You should watch them the whole time anyway. 
4. Because of salinity drop, the fish can sometimes just lay there so don’t be startled BUT typically they are surprisingly calm...my clownfish even seemed to enjoy it. Just carefully watch gills for any distress, or if they were calm and suddenly want to start carpet surfing, bath is done. 
5. Net, rinse in another container with some display water, and plop in display without xfer of any water.

 

I have personally seen critters crawl out of their bodies and squirm away, listless in moments. This is not a guarantee, for if the fish is already extremely deeply infected (as in parasites hidden well within slime coat or body) there is a possibility of an issue, yet significantly less than with no bath at all. I have had no issues with any of the fish I have used this procedure with including, my current 2 clowns, 1 tailspot, 1 springerii, and 1 yellow watchman.

 

 

 

 

Thank you - this information is very helpful...probably should start dipping new inhabitants going forward!

 

On 7/6/2018 at 7:54 AM, seabass said:

Possibly the worst food ever.  It's like feeding your dog candy.  He might like it, but there is little nutritional value.  Switch to mysis and/or try some other frozen or quality flake or pellet.

Another "good to know"....perhaps the food has something to do with it. Will switch to mysis and give it another go. I picked up a clownfish yesterday so will see how things go. A recent FTS below....so as you can see - the corals seem to be very happy.

 

 

[docshipwreck]

How is oxygenation? When I first started I had lost some fish and after ruling out as much as I could I chalked it up to not having enough turnover in the water.

[specore]

On 7/6/2018 at 8:54 AM, seabass said:

Possibly the worst food ever.  It's like feeding your dog candy.  He might like it, but there is little nutritional value.  Switch to mysis and/or try some other frozen or quality flake or pellet.

Yep...may as well not feed them.  I honestly don't even understand why LFS's stock this stuff, it's like 99% water.  I have found mysis and flake to be the best bet to get new fish eating.  

[Rathje70]

5 hours ago, docshipwreck said:

How is oxygenation? When I first started I had lost some fish and after ruling out as much as I could I chalked it up to not having enough turnover in the water.

I believe oxygen is fine. Have a MP10 and then the stock pump with spin streams - plenty of surface agitation. The pair of clowns I bought on Saturday seemed to be doing fine....though just got home and it looks like one has ick and the other is breathing hard - WTH?!

 

5 hours ago, specore said:

Yep...may as well not feed them.  I honestly don't even understand why LFS's stock this stuff, it's like 99% water.  I have found mysis and flake to be the best bet to get new fish eating.  

Picked up some mysis and that is what I am feeding them now.

[Rathje70]

Here is a picture with my clown which has ich most certainly.....is there anything I can do at this point? Is this also possibly the reason my other fish have died? I have never noticed signs this intense on the others....

 

I bought a cleaner Shrimp on Saturday as well and he appears to be doing great and eating well. Corals are thriving too!

[seabass]

48 minutes ago, Rathje70 said:

The pair of clowns I bought on Saturday seemed to be doing fine....though just got home and it looks like one has ick and the other is breathing hard - WTH?!

Too bad they aren't in QT.  Can you setup a hospital tank for them?

 

[Rathje70]

4 minutes ago, seabass said:

Too bad they aren't in QT.  Can you setup a hospital tank for them?

 

Thanks for passing on - never have setup a hospital tank and am actually headed out of town for a couple of days starting tomorrow so wouldn’t even have the time to do it unfortunately! I can probably assume they aren’t going to make it and should keep my tank fallow for 6-8 weeks? This has to be the reason why I keep losing fish?

[seabass]

41 minutes ago, Rathje70 said:

should keep my tank fallow for 6-8 weeks?

Definitely.

[Rathje70]

5 minutes ago, seabass said:

Definitely.

Alrighty - headed to Europe in early September for a few weeks so I guess that will be he next time I add fish. Corals and cleaner shrimp should be fine with continued normal maintenance?

[markalot]

If the fish isn't dead yet let me give alternative advice.

 

Get some marine flake food and feed heavily.  If the fish is still eating it actually stands a good chance at survival.  Ich will be in your tank forever, as it's in both of mine, but fish can and will survive and eventually show no symptoms.    If you go fallow you can eliminate it, supposedly, but there are a growing number of stories about ich free tanks (it's Marine Cryptosomething actually but Ich is what more are familiar with) that suddenly get ich when a stressful event happens.

 

 

Just now, Rathje70 said:

Alrighty - headed to Europe in early September for a few weeks so I guess that will be he next time I add fish. Corals and cleaner shrimp should be fine with continued normal maintenance?

 

Yep.  Shrimp needs food too, they love flake and pellets as well.  Use pellets and make them work for the meal.

[Rathje70]

3 minutes ago, markalot said:

If the fish isn't dead yet let me give alternative advice.

 

Get some marine flake food and feed heavily.  If the fish is still eating it actually stands a good chance at survival.  Ich will be in your tank forever, as it's in both of mine, but fish can and will survive and eventually show no symptoms.    If you go fallow you can eliminate it, supposedly, but there are a growing number of stories about ich free tanks (it's Marine Cryptosomething actually but Ich is what more are familiar with) that suddenly get ich when a stressful event happens.

 

 

 

Yep.  Shrimp needs food too, they love flake and pellets as well.  Use pellets and make them work for the meal.

Thanks for the feedback and advice! I fed them mysis about 15 minutes ago and they were eating normally. The cleaner shrimp was going crazy after the food as well. Any reason why you recommend flake/pellets over frozen?

 

If indeed the fish do pass - is it okay to continue to feed mysis for the cleaner shrimp?

 

thanks again!

[markalot]

4 minutes ago, Rathje70 said:

Thanks for the feedback and advice! I fed them mysis about 15 minutes ago and they were eating normally. The cleaner shrimp was going crazy after the food as well. Any reason why you recommend flake/pellets over frozen?

 

If indeed the fish do pass - is it okay to continue to feed mysis for the cleaner shrimp?

 

thanks again!

It's junk food with added vitamins and lots of stuff fish love.  While it's not 'good' for them it can fatten the fish up quickly and in my experience greatly improve the immune system.  The drawback is more waste in the tank.  Still, it's worth it when fish are new and in bad shape.  You can improve their diet once they are healthy.   It's worked all but two times for me, and both times it was a harassment issue that killed the newcomer.

 

Shrimp will eat just about anything.  :)

[Rathje70]

13 minutes ago, markalot said:

It's junk food with added vitamins and lots of stuff fish love.  While it's not 'good' for them it can fatten the fish up quickly and in my experience greatly improve the immune system.  The drawback is more waste in the tank.  Still, it's worth it when fish are new and in bad shape.  You can improve their diet once they are healthy.   It's worked all but two times for me, and both times it was a harassment issue that killed the newcomer.

 

Shrimp will eat just about anything.  🙂

Will pick some flakes up tomorrow and give it a shot! I have a feeling one of the clownfish isnt going to make it through the night. Breathing very heavily and hanging out towards the surface.....the other one seems to be a bit more active.

 

 

[Clown79]

6 hours ago, Rathje70 said:

Here is a picture with my clown which has ich most certainly.....is there anything I can do at this point? Is this also possibly the reason my other fish have died? I have never noticed signs this intense on the others....

 

I bought a cleaner Shrimp on Saturday as well and he appears to be doing great and eating well. Corals are thriving too!

That is what I mentioned before regarding parasites being a cause and that keeping the tank fallow for 8 weeks would prevent any more fish death.

 

If 1 of the original fish that died had a parasite, every other fish added after would contract it and die.

 

You mention being away often, in a day or 2 you may have missed the visual signs of the parasite on the fish.