Qt water woes

[skijumpersc]

I set up a qt a week ago. It’s 10g with an hob filter. I used 5 gallons from my display tank and 5 gallons of new water to fill it. In the Hob I’m running the carbon it cane with as well as filter floss that had been in my display tank for a week.

I’ve been out of town for a week and I was hoping to get fish tomorrow. I tested it when I got home and I found both my ammonia and nitrite were .25ppm and nitrate was about 10. There has been nothing in the tank. I’m confused about how these levels are where they are.  

How can I fix this so I can start adding fish as soon as possible?

[seabass]

One week may not have been long enough for the floss to become a biological filter.  You might try a bacterial culture like DrTim's One & Only.

 

The ammonia and nitrite could have been caused by organics in the water and on the filter floss which are now breaking down.  I assume that you compared the test results against your display tank's results.

[skijumpersc]

I’m planning on doing a water change tonight. With a bacterial culture how long should it take to get it to where I can add fish? Lots of them say you can add fish right away, but I assume that’s not when ammonia and nitrite are already elevated. Do you think I should pull that filter floss if it’s got organics that can be increasing my issues?

[seabass]

9 minutes ago, skijumpersc said:

Lots of them say you can add fish right away

Some do claim that, but it's not really true.

 

11 minutes ago, skijumpersc said:

Do you think I should pull that filter floss if it’s got organics that can be increasing my issues?

I wouldn't; that's probably your only biofilter at the moment.

[skijumpersc]

This might be a stupid question, but I am very new to this. Can I add a fish to help the cycle?

[1891Bro]

10 minutes ago, skijumpersc said:

This might be a stupid question, but I am very new to this. Can I add a fish to help the cycle?

Technically yes and no. 

Yes as in the fish will provide ammonia for bacteria to feed on. 

No as the fish will likely suffer from aspirating (is that what it’s called for fish?) the ammonia. 

In conclusion, if you must do it with a fish use a universally hated, garbage, dickbag fish. Like a domino damsel. 

[seabass]

Cycling with a fish is generally frowned upon.  Although some people still do it.  Dosing ammonium chloride is a much better way to accomplish the same thing.

Here's a how to guide: http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources/fishless-cycling

[skijumpersc]

My QT tank has still been holding .25 nitrite steady. Beginning of July I started dosing seed to get the beneficial bacteria up and I’ve done a couple 2 gallon water changes with water from my established tank. Nothing seems to make a dent in the nitrite and it seems like I should have been going down by now. Last night I decided to do a 90% change. I did 5 gallons of new mixed saltwater and 4 from my other tank. I’m really hoping when I get home from work and test it my nitrites will be 0. If that is the case do i have to worry about them creeping up again or can I add a fish?

[specore]

2 minutes ago, skijumpersc said:

My QT tank has still been holding .25 nitrite steady. Beginning of July I started dosing seed to get the beneficial bacteria up and I’ve done a couple 2 gallon water changes with water from my established tank. Nothing seems to make a dent in the nitrite and it seems like I should have been going down by now. Last night I decided to do a 90% change. I did 5 gallons of new mixed saltwater and 4 from my other tank. I’m really hoping when I get home from work and test it my nitrites will be 0. If that is the case do i have to worry about them creeping up again or can I add a fish?

Why are you using water from your tank?  It doesn't do anything other than add additional organics to the QT...I would recommend using all new water for the changes.  

[seabass]

Don't worry about nitrite at 0.25ppm.  It isn't very toxic at marine pH levels.  As long as ammonia is undetectable, your fish will be fine.

[Clown79]

Would not adding liverock from the tank or bio media prevent this issue?

 

 

[skijumpersc]

2 hours ago, specore said:

Why are you using water from your tank?  It doesn't do anything other than add additional organics to the QT...I would recommend using all new water for the changes.  

Ok, that’s good to know, my thought was that the fish would be acclimated to my display parameters by the time quarantine is done.

 

50 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Would not adding liverock from the tank or bio media prevent this issue?

 

 

I haven’t added any live rock, the only media I had added was a filter sponge, but I took that out a couple weeks ago 

 

2 hours ago, seabass said:

Don't worry about nitrite at 0.25ppm.  It isn't very toxic at marine pH levels.  As long as ammonia is undetectable, your fish will be fine.

Ok that’s great to know. My ammonia has been at zero for a few weeks now

[specore]

Gotcha.  Fish aren't really sensitive to anything other than temperature.  

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, skijumpersc said:

Ok, that’s good to know, my thought was that the fish would be acclimated to my display parameters by the time quarantine is done.

 

I haven’t added any live rock, the only media I had added was a filter sponge, but I took that out a couple weeks ago 

 

Ok that’s great to know. My ammonia has been at zero for a few weeks now

You have no biological filtration in there.

 

I've used my waterchange water from my 25g to set up a tank and qt but I don' have high nutrients.

 

To me it was an easy way to set up. A lot of people do this.

 

 

The issue is you have nothing for biological filtration 

 

You need either a sponge, bio media, or liverock as water alone will not cut it for bio filter. 

 

If you need to medicate, none of the above can be reused in your display tank.

[skijumpersc]

32 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

You have no biological filtration in there.

 

I've used my waterchange water from my 25g to set up a tank and qt but I don' have high nutrients.

 

To me it was an easy way to set up. A lot of people do this.

 

 

The issue is you have nothing for biological filtration 

 

You need either a sponge, bio media, or liverock as water alone will not cut it for bio filter. 

 

If you need to medicate, none of the above can be reused in your display tank.

I do have a sponge in there, the one I removed was from my display tank because it seemed like it had a lot of detritus that was driving my nitrates up. I put in a new one and was hoping it would seed from the bacteria I’ve been adding. I was also under the impression that anything including the glass and pvc pieces would be surface area for the bacteria, just a lot less surface area than live rock etc 

[specore]

28 minutes ago, skijumpersc said:

I do have a sponge in there, the one I removed was from my display tank because it seemed like it had a lot of detritus that was driving my nitrates up. I put in a new one and was hoping it would seed from the bacteria I’ve been adding. I was also under the impression that anything including the glass and pvc pieces would be surface area for the bacteria, just a lot less surface area than live rock etc 

A lot less indeed, as in probably 99.99% less 

[skijumpersc]

I added a Molly Miller Blenny a couple days ago. I've got the Seachem badge and my ammonia is constantly creeping up. I know my bio filter isn't going strong in there, but I thought with only one fish and consistent water changes I could keep up on it. Its still below .05 ppm, but it seems to be getting higher. I did 25% water changes the last two days with fresh mixed water. After the first change the color got closer to 0, after the second change yesterday it didn't, and today its still going up. I don't want to have to do water changes every day to keep up on this, what can I do? I may need to just bail him out of QT and put him into the DT and roll the dice. Then I could work on building up my bio filter without worrying about keeping a fish alive. I don't know why this QT process is a pain in the ass for me.

[seabass]

It's simply due to a lack of a biofilter.  A quarantine tank is no different than a display tank.  You could dose Seachem Prime every day to detoxify the ammonia; or as you suggested, skip QT and put the fish in a tank with a real working biofilter.  For a QT, you either have to transfer a working biofilter, build one up with ammonium chloride, or detoxify ammonia with Prime.

[skijumpersc]

3 hours ago, seabass said:

It's simply due to a lack of a biofilter.  A quarantine tank is no different than a display tank.  You could dose Seachem Prime every day to detoxify the ammonia; or as you suggested, skip QT and put the fish in a tank with a real working biofilter.  For a QT, you either have to transfer a working biofilter, build one up with ammonium chloride, or detoxify ammonia with Prime.

If I can keep it below .05ppm through prime and water changes is it a safe environment for the fish? What level becomes too much?

[seabass]

 

Quote

 

Ammonia

Ammonia (NH3) is excreted by all animals and some other aquarium inhabitants. Unfortunately, it is very toxic to all animals, although it is not toxic to certain other organisms, such as some species of macroalgae that readily consume it. Fish are not, however, the only animals that ammonia harms, and even some algae, such as the phytoplankton Nephroselmis pyriformis, are harmed by less than 0.1 ppm ammonia.¹⁵

 

In an established reef aquarium, the ammonia produced is usually taken up rapidly. Macroalgae use it to make proteins, DNA, and other biochemicals that contain nitrogen. Bacteria also take it up and convert it to nitrite, nitrate, and nitrogen gas (the famous "nitrogen cycle"). All of these compounds are much less toxic than ammonia (at least to fish), so the ammonia waste is rapidly "detoxified" under normal conditions.

 

Under some conditions, however, ammonia may be a concern. During the initial setup of a reef aquarium, or when new live rock or sand is added, an abundance of ammonia may be produced that the available mechanisms cannot detoxify quickly enough. In these circumstances, fish are at great risk. Ammonia levels as low as 0.2 ppm can be dangerous to fish.¹⁶ In such instances, the fish and invertebrates should be removed to cleaner water, or the aquarium treated with an ammonia-binding product such as Amquel.

 

Many aquarists are confused by the difference between ammonia and a form of it that is believed to be less toxic: ammonium. These two forms interconvert very rapidly (many times per second), so for many purposes they are not distinct chemicals. They are related by the acid base reaction shown below:

 

NH3 + H⁺ ßà NH4⁺

 

Ammonia + hydrogen ion (acid) ßà ammonium ion

 

The only reason that ammonium is thought to be less toxic than ammonia is that, being a charged molecule, it crosses the fishes' gills and enters their bloodstream with more difficulty than does ammonia, which readily passes across the gill membranes and rapidly enters the blood.

 

In aquaria with higher pH levels, which contain less H⁺, more of the total ammonia will be in the NH3 form. Consequently, the toxicity of a solution with a fixed total ammonia concentration rises as pH rises. This is important in such areas as fish transport, where ammonia can build to toxic levels.

 

I will discuss issues concerning ammonia in greater detail in a future column.

 

Source: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/

[skijumpersc]

 

I moved the blenny to the DT last week and so far so good. I added a sponge and some bio rings to the filter and I've been dosing aquavitrio seed for the last 5 days following their instructions to for seeding a new tank. I havent done any water changes since I took out the fish since I wanted to leave the ammonia. I figure once it begins to decrease I would know that I've got enough bacteria to handle it. Is this a good approach or would i be better of doing a water change?

[seabass]

Once ammonia starts to notably decline, you can do a water change (you don't have to wait for it to become undetectable).  Otherwise, there's no harm in waiting.

[skijumpersc]

2 minutes ago, seabass said:

Once ammonia starts to notably decline, you can do a water change (you don't have to wait for it to become undetectable).  Otherwise, there's no harm in waiting.

Awesome, thats what I was hoping