Vacuuming LS Beds?

[Subsea]

28 minutes ago, RedPhotog said:

I guess I’m wondering if I can rely on the weekly water changes with the good circulation to not have to worry about vacuuming my sandbed violently like in some videos I’ve seen. Where the whole siphone turns from clear water into chocolate milk. And the tank sits with cloudy water for a day. 

 

That would suck for a fish. 

Why does sand bed vacuuming  have to be violent?  Partial water change should go hand in hand with lightly vacuuming gravel surface.

 

It depends on how much you feed and the quality of your CUC.  If you don’t want to vacume, then compensate by reducing  feed and getting appropriate janitors.  It is your tank.  To vacume or not to vacume, that is your question.

[WV Reefer]

18 minutes ago, RedPhotog said:

I guess I’m wondering if I can rely on the weekly water changes with the good circulation to not have to worry about vacuuming my sandbed violently like in some videos I’ve seen. Where the whole siphone turns from clear water into chocolate milk. And the tank sits with cloudy water for a day. 

 

That would suck for a fish. 

As you can see it’s a very loaded question. lol 

 

it really depends on the type of tank you plan on running. I have a high nutrient tank because I do not use a filter or a skimmer. I rely on weekly water changes to import/export nutrients and detritus. I like my tank to be “dirty” and I like my sand to be “dirty”. 

 

If you want to run a very clean SPS system then you may want a very clean sand bed or bare bottom tank. 

 

 

[RedPhotog]

43 minutes ago, Subsea said:

Why does sand bed vacuuming  have to be violent?  Partial water change should go hand in hand with lightly vacuuming gravel surface.

 

It depends on how much you feed and the quality of your CUC.  If you don’t want to vacume, then compensate by reducing  feed and getting appropriate janitors.  It is your tank.  To vacume or not to vacume, that is your question.

It’s just a term I used to describe the difference in intensity in seeing of sandbed vacuuming. Some seem to be very thorough while others are very gentle. What does the extra inch of sandbed offer that a 3 inch bed doesn’t? And does space and water flow have anything to do with it? 

 

It is my tank, and I can take a dump in it if I want to. But we all like to feed addictions somehow, and when I’m not sitting in front of my tank, I like to discuss info and ideas on the forums. 

[A Little Blue]

There are plenty articles that explain sandbed, mud, sediments etc. 

[1891Bro]

I’m a violent siphoner but I guess since I do it once a week the junk doesn’t get bad enough to cloud the tank. The old water bucket is nasty looking though. I usually pull out rocks and rinse and scrub them in the old water but not every week. I’ve had enough nasty problems in previous tanks so I’m really trying to prevent that this go ‘round. 

[Tamberav]

If it's one thing we should know... is that there are a million ways to be successful in this hobby.

 

Yes, people wash their sand in tap water without issue.

 

Yes, people stir their sand bed only.

 

Yes, people vaccume.

 

Yes, some people do nothing and have a good CUC.

 

Yes, some people have DSB with small grains.

 

Yes, some people have shallow sand beds.

 

Yes, some people have no sand bed at all.

 

 

No one is trolling you. Brandon on here advocates RIP CLEAN sandbeds which involves washing them in tap water. Subsea employs a more natural approach. I feel both of them contribute great ideas of different ways of maintaining reef tanks. 

 

 

Find what works for YOUR tank.

 

 

[WV Reefer]

3 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

If it's one thing we should know... is that there are a million ways to be successful in this hobby.

 

Yes, people wash their sand in tap water without issue.

 

Yes, people stir their sand bed only.

 

Yes, people vaccume.

 

Yes, some people do nothing and have a good CUC.

 

Yes, some people have DSB with small grains.

 

Yes, some people have shallow sand beds.

 

Yes, some people have no sand bed at all.

 

 

No one is trolling you. Brandon on here advocates RIP CLEAN sandbeds which involves washing them in tap water. Subsea employs a more natural approach. I feel both of them contribute great ideas of different ways of maintaining reef tanks. 

 

 

Find what works for YOUR tank.

 

 

 

 

Preach ??

[A Little Blue]

There are too many variables to give definite answer. Even if you setup 10 tanks the same way, results will be most likely different. And difference between our setups are so dramatic that results can be extremely difficult to replicate. 

[Subsea]

3 hours ago, RedPhotog said:

It’s just a term I used to describe the difference in intensity in seeing of sandbed vacuuming. Some seem to be very thorough while others are very gentle. What does the extra inch of sandbed offer that a 3 inch bed doesn’t? And does space and water flow have anything to do with it? 

 

It is my tank, and I can take a dump in it if I want to. But we all like to feed addictions somehow, and when I’m not sitting in front of my tank, I like to discuss info and ideas on the forums. 

I know too much to give you a shotgun answer.   Unless you are well versed, it would bore you.  

 

You tell me why you referenced a 3” sandbed depth.  What do you want your sand bed to do for you?  Contrary to popular opinion on these reef hobby forums,  you can’t isolate one subsystem from another.  Systems are dynamic and they interact with everything.  So tell me about your tank and what you want to do with it.  

[Subsea]

4 hours ago, RedPhotog said:

Green algae is starting to form and I feel the 3 crabs aren’t keeping up with the brown algae. Is the one per gallon rule consistent? Or is that usually for more mature tanks? 

Read bioindicators, like increased algae, to determine if more CUC is required.

[banasophia]

I’m a newbie myself and wondered about this issue myself when I first started my tank about 3 months ago... there are so many ways to do things! 

 

Taking the advice of two respected reefers at my favorite LFS, I did not vacuum my sandbed at first during my weekly water changes, but as time went on I noticed algae and detritus building up in areas, and I didn’t really like the way the sand looked in cross section along the sides. Then while I was out of town for a couple of days my husband overfed a bit resulting in algae and cyano growth, so I did a few water changes with vacuuming and this seemed to clear up the algae and cyano for the time being, but I wasn’t crazy about vacuuming the sand and sucking so much sand up.

 

So... now I am stirring up the sand prior to my water change and I’m really liking that approach so far. Check out the YouTube video by Lorenzo White showing his “White Sandbed” method - that’s basically what I’ve been doing lately and so far it’s working well for me. 

 

Good luck in finding the way that that works best for you and your tank.  

[dandelion]

To follow up on my rinsing the sand bed with hot tap water: I should have said I don’t expect my sandbed to serve any more functions than being plain ornamental. My live rocks and filter substrates provide enough biofiltration to detoxify ammonia in my system. All my other systems are bare bottom so that’s proof in itself that a saltwater aquarium can run without biofiltration from the sandbed. True that a sandbed can contribute to biofiltration, I don’t need it.

 

I rinse it because I get rid of a lot of junk in my sandbed that way. I use tap water because saltwater costs time/effect/money to make. I use hot tap water because I want the sandbed to be sparkling clean, devoid of algae/Cyanobacteria even at the expense of beneficial bacteria/detritivore. 

 

If you look at my old posts, I don’t troll. You don’t have to follow what I do. I’m merely sharing what works for me. Thing I like about this site is most people are very nice and they actually give advice instead of simply saying “google.” I’d like to keep that culture going by contributing what little bit I can. 

[Clown79]

3 hours ago, dandelion said:

To follow up on my rinsing the sand bed with hot tap water: I should have said I don’t expect my sandbed to serve any more functions than being plain ornamental. My live rocks and filter substrates provide enough biofiltration to detoxify ammonia in my system. All my other systems are bare bottom so that’s proof in itself that a saltwater aquarium can run without biofiltration from the sandbed. True that a sandbed can contribute to biofiltration, I don’t need it.

 

I rinse it because I get rid of a lot of junk in my sandbed that way. I use tap water because saltwater costs time/effect/money to make. I use hot tap water because I want the sandbed to be sparkling clean, devoid of algae/Cyanobacteria even at the expense of beneficial bacteria/detritivore. 

 

If you look at my old posts, I don’t troll. You don’t have to follow what I do. I’m merely sharing what works for me. Thing I like about this site is most people are very nice and they actually give advice instead of simply saying “google.” I’d like to keep that culture going by contributing what little bit I can. 

I agree. The point of these forums is to discuss our experiences and knowledge. 

 

 

What people choose to do with that knowledge is up to them.

[Subsea]

21 hours ago, Tamberav said:

If it's one thing we should know... is that there are a million ways to be successful in this hobby.

 

Yes, people wash their sand in tap water without issue.

 

Yes, people stir their sand bed only.

 

Yes, people vaccume.

 

Yes, some people do nothing and have a good CUC.

 

Yes, some people have DSB with small grains.

 

Yes, some people have shallow sand beds.

 

Yes, some people have no sand bed at all.

 

 

No one is trolling you. Brandon on here advocates RIP CLEAN sandbeds which involves washing them in tap water. Subsea employs a more natural approach. I feel both of them contribute great ideas of different ways of maintaining reef tanks. 

 

 

Find what works for YOUR tank.

 

Outstanding!    This needs to be a plaque, set up like the Golden Rule” on each forum.  

 

Many differrent systems work well.  The one common denominator to these successes is the operator of the reef tank.

21 hours ago, Tamberav said:

 

 

[RedPhotog]

On 5/16/2018 at 12:26 PM, Subsea said:

If you read my 25 year old tank journal, you will see that I maintained  a 6” deep Jaubert Plenum sandbed.

 

What kind of a reef tank do you want to maintain?

I want natural biological filtration with my live sand and live rock. My substrate is the fine sugary live sand, 2 inches, 2.5 max. I don’t want any hydrogen sulfide issues. I only have fish and inverts now, but it will be nice to introduce coral with a natural feeding system. 

 

I’ve never kept coral, this will be my first reef tank. I had really good success with my last fish/invert system. My tank now is 10g, I ditched the biowheel mid cycle, running a 20g HOB filter with a Koralia 240. I’m really happy with the filtration and circulation. I do weekly water changes. Never had ammonia or nitrite issues. Haven’t been able to get my nitrates below 10-15 though. It’s about 2 months old. Clownfish, 3 hermits, 2 nassarius snails. 

 

My goal with the smaller tank is to keep learning and asking questions so I can keep it stable, making me more confident for a bigger build. My dream is to have 50-75 gallon reef tank. I’m really glad I started the hobby again. Been going through some of your posts and your info is very educational, I wish I had a stronger grasp at the science of reef keeping. Now I’m just trying to keep things simple by maintaining steady practices. 

 

Id the discussion to keep going. Thanks for the responses. 

[Subsea]

@RedPhotog

Depending on how fine your sand, that is too deep.   

 

Tech talk:

Sandbed has two functions:  recycle nutrients and perform natural alkalinity buffering.  Aroggonite begins to dissolve at a pH of 8.05.  Normal pH fluctuations on reefs of the world range from 8.15 - 7.85 between day and night.  If you allow this normal pH fluctuation that happens on a healthy reef, to happen in your tank, you will get automatic passive control of alkalinity and automatic addittion of trace minerals.  

 

Nutrient recycling in a sandbed is very complex.  Without getting deep into the biochemistry, let us talk in general about the biochemistry.  Bacteria process inorganic nutrients: nitrogen & phosphate in the ratio of 16 to 1.  Bacteria transfer 60% of the total carbon and nutrients on the reef in a process called the “microbial loop”.  Predatation of bacteria is food for the reef.

 

Bacteria are found everywhere.  The important process of sandbed nutrient recycling are done by a diverse detrivore crew.  Sandbed grainsize is the number one factor in sandbed detrivore crew.   Dr Ron likes a 6” bed of sugar sand to maximize worms.  I always found this smallest grain size objectionable because it moved about in current.  

 

I like something  0.1 - 1.0mm and keep it under 2”. Due to differrent systems,  I mix substrate grades.  It all works.  Good detrivore janitors would include Cerith Snails, bristle worms, micro starfish, pods.

 

[RedPhotog]

1 hour ago, Subsea said:

@RedPhotog

Depending on how fine your sand, that is too deep.   

 

Tech talk:

Sandbed has two functions:  recycle nutrients and perform natural alkalinity buffering.  Aroggonite begins to dissolve at a pH of 8.05.  Normal pH fluctuations on reefs of the world range from 8.15 - 7.85 between day and night.  If you allow this normal pH fluctuation that happens on a healthy reef, to happen in your tank, you will get automatic passive control of alkalinity and automatic addittion of trace minerals.  

 

Nutrient recycling in a sandbed is very complex.  Without getting deep into the biochemistry, let us talk in general about the biochemistry.  Bacteria process inorganic nutrients: nitrogen & phosphate in the ratio of 16 to 1.  Bacteria transfer 60% of the total carbon and nutrients on the reef in a process called the “microbial loop”.  Predatation of bacteria is food for the reef.

 

Bacteria are found everywhere.  The important process of sandbed nutrient recycling are done by a diverse detrivore crew.  Sandbed grainsize is the number one factor in sandbed detrivore crew.   Dr Ron likes a 6” bed of sugar sand to maximize worms.  I always found this smallest grain size objectionable because it moved about in current.  

 

I like something  0.1 - 1.0mm and keep it under 2”. Due to differrent systems,  I mix substrate grades.  It all works.  Good detrivore janitors would include Cerith Snails, bristle worms, micro starfish, pods.

 

I believe my sand is the lowest grade sand. It’s very sugary, light, and easy to disrupt, I believe it’s .5mm. But I was able to position my flows where none of the sandbed is disrupted. Critters are the only thing that can move my sand now, I’m very happy with the circulation. 

 

As as far as the depth, you think I should be below 2 inches? I thought oxygen levels aren’t really a factor before 4. I was my understanding that at least 2 inches of fine sand is standard for the natural bio filtration I’m looking for. Pardon my ignorance please. 

[Subsea]

Let’s get specific.  

 

@RedPhotog

 

As water migrates down thru sandbed, oxygen is consumed by bacteria as ammonia and nitrite become food for nitrification bacteria.   Depending on grain size and cleanliness of sand bed, at increased depth with oxygen depletion, anaerobic chemistry begins to happen with hydrogen sulfide as the byproduct.  I have maintained many dsb and have witnessed this hydrogen sulfide line migrating back and forth.  In your small tank, this could easily crash it.  The only thing that stops dsb from crashing is sand bed  maintenance and janitors.  IMO, if your grain size is 0.5mm at 2”  max, you should have no problem.

 

PSS:  However, IMO, you should limit that grain sizen to a depth of 1” - 1.5”.  As your depth increases, anaerobic conditions become more likely, so why push the limit?

[Subsea]

 

 

@RedPhotog

What else do you expect from your sandbed?

[Subsea]

@RedPhotog

While you have not mentioned it, macro algae works very well in a marine tank.  Decorative & utilitarian macro provide natural filtration and recycling of live food as well as nutrient export by pruning and removing.  Macro also provides excellent cover for pods and also provides a surface for nutritional biofilms which feed fish and pods.  Using numerous food webs, macro algae contributes immensely to natural filtration.

 

https://www.live-plants.com/

 

Look at this website.   It is my best source of information for macro as well as great snail prices and also some sponges that do well in Aquaria.

[RedPhotog]

1 hour ago, Subsea said:

Let’s get specific.  

 

@RedPhotog

 

As water migrates down thru sandbed, oxygen is consumed by bacteria as ammonia and nitrite become food for nitrification bacteria.   Depending on grain size and cleanliness of sand bed, at increased depth with oxygen depletion, anaerobic chemistry begins to happen with hydrogen sulfide as the byproduct.  I have maintained many dsb and have witnessed this hydrogen sulfide line migrating back and forth.  In your small tank, this could easily crash it.  The only thing that stops dsb from crashing is sand bed  maintenance and janitors.  IMO, if your grain size is 0.5mm at 2”  max, you should have no problem.

 

PSS:  However, IMO, you should limit that grain sizen to a depth of 1” - 1.5”.  As your depth increases, anaerobic conditions become more likely, so why push the limit?

Can you explain to me the layers of substrate, and levels of substrates where different chemistry happens? 2

inches is too much? I thought the worse conditions were due to lack of oxygen, and 2 inches was clear of that. 

 

Forgive my ignorance, again. But a complete explanation on the chemistry between waste, food, etc, and what kind of sand bed conditions are best, and what happens and you go deeper 4-8 inches? I’m sure different cleaning methods are preferred for different depths. 

 

[Subsea]

10 minutes ago, RedPhotog said:

Can you explain to me the layers of substrate, and levels of substrates where different chemistry happens? 2

inches is too much? I thought the worse conditions were due to lack of oxygen, and 2 inches was clear of that. 

 

Forgive my ignorance, again. But a complete explanation on the chemistry between waste, food, etc, and what kind of sand bed conditions are best, and what happens and you go deeper 4-8 inches? I’m sure different cleaning methods are preferred for different depths. 

 

why do you continue to talk dsb?  Do you know what benefit are you looking for?  Perhaps you should be posting to this thread.  

[Subsea]

@RedPhotog

To focus on your last line,   “Different cleaning methods for differrent depths”, I say leave it to the sandbed detrivores.  You take care of detritus on the surface.  If you prevent excess detritus from entering depths of sandbed, the sandbed janitors will process it.  Get good janitors.  Preventative is more important than reactive.

 

 

[Subsea]

@RedPhotog

To focus on your use of .5mm grain size in a 2” layer of sandbed, more than likely, with good detrivores/good maintenance there will be no anaerobic chemistry.  

 

Why would you risk getting hydrogen sulfide by pushing the limit of your sand-bed depth?

 

What is the point of 2” plus that is so important to you?

[Subsea]

@RedPhotog

To focus on your use of .5mm grain size in a 2” layer of sandbed, more than likely, with good detrivores/good maintenance there will be no anaerobic chemistry.  

 

Why would you risk getting hydrogen sulfide by pushing the limit of your sand-bed depth?

 

What is the point of 2” plus that is so important to you?