Fully Write up - Hydrogen peroxide treatment GHA - Documentation and Photos

[Lynaea]

11 minutes ago, HarryPotter said:

 

while he tries to justify his "miracle cure"-  fanatical. 

Yup, .... this.

[HarryPotter]

 

 

Quote

in one thread Brandon stated his ‘tank’ is rip cleaned every Tuesday, but his pics were of a jar pico

 

I also read that. In the past when discussing controversial reefing topics, I have suggested looking at the tanks of either advocate. If you consider that he "rip cleans" his pico tank weekly, I would swim away from his advice on algae solutions as fast as fishingly* possible. 

 

*joke, variation of humanly possible

 

Quote

 I think if his method of promoting this procedure were more ‘hey a bunch of people did this and it worked pretty well’ he wouldn’t get so much backlash (re: being banned from r2r)

 

I read some of threads that lead to him being banned. Saying something WORKS, that it is a miracle cure for algae, is very different from saying something SHOULD work.  Fanatics, whether in religion, politics, or reefing forums, are the most dangerous type of members. An unbacked, untested, and debatably effective (at best) method should not be presented as a universal solution.  Sorry if this seems harsh. 

 

 

Quote

BUT this method is still just a ‘quick’ fix, you will only see long term results if you can figure out what caused the issue to begin with. Otherwise you will probably have to do this again in 3-6 months to ‘maintain’ your tank. To his credit Brandon did mention working on these issues after the cleaning. 

 

Firstly: a "quick fix" my butt. (I know you are being sarcastic, because that is what he claims this will be). On his jar, he does this weekly- scraping all algae from the rocks and spraying H202. Imagine me trying that on my 90 gallon, even more so since the rocks are stuck together from encrusted corals. It is not feasible unless you have a pico and way too much time on your hands.

 

Brandon does spend a lot of time trying to help reefers, I think thats great, I just take issue with both his inaccurate, fanatical presentation of H202 as well as the method itself.

[Lynaea]

21 minutes ago, HarryPotter said:

 

I read some of threads that lead to him being banned. Saying something WORKS, that it is a miracle cure for algae, is very different from saying something SHOULD work.  Fanatics, whether in religion, politics, or reefing forums, are the most dangerous type of members. An unbacked, untested, and debatably effective (at best) method should not be presented as a universal solution.  Sorry if this seems harsh. 

Nope, not harsh .... pretty much exactly where I was going. Nothing works for everyone 100% of the time, saying it does invites backlash and disagreement. 

 

21 minutes ago, HarryPotter said:

 

Firstly: a "quick fix" my butt. On his jar, he does this weekly- scraping all algae from the rocks and spraying H202. Imagine me trying that on my 90 gallon, even more so since the rocks are stuck together from encrusted corals. It is not feasible unless you have a pico and way too much time on your hands. Brandon does spend a lot of time trying to help reefers, I think thats great, I just take issue with his presentation of H202.

? Haha, yeah quick in quotes because I was being sarcastic, .... although doing this sort of thing does make a difference faster than fixing husbandry issues or dosing algae fix or whatever. Even if the results are temporary and debatable. 

 

 

Also OP, you kind of blew off the person who asked about feeding frozen foods but they are known to be high in phosphate. Actually, feeding frozen for two years or so with “no issues” and then getting algae due to built up nutrients seems logical / expected.  

Obviously you need to remove the bulk of that algae by whatever ‘quick’ method you prefer, but then you need to keep up with nutrient / detritus removal. As I stated before I am currently going through the same thing and am definitely looking at my methods to keep nutrients in check from here on. 

 

Thanks for posting this by the way, I hope you do post your results regardless of how you choose to proceed. 

[brandon429]

Where’s y’alls work threads

 

 

post them right here. Even the anecdotal ones, the lowest quality collection of people running your method with direct feedback to be discounted, hundreds of others written testimony to discount let’s see what you are countering with. 

 

 

The deal is: I take all the risk for reworking tanks and present the bulk data for pattern review WITH the public slant towards the negative, not the positive, so that everything produced is against a gradient filter. People who run this method will nail you on losses in typed history...its actually pretty common to not even follow up on the successes as life moves on w a happy tank. For years the method is tried against a gradient of pure skepticism, we like that. 

 

 

do with the data what you will 

 

 

 

 

 

i myself do not mind armchair evals, I have not fixed anyone’s reef standing up

 

We can look at your fts and direct you to the year and site of the same reef being fixed, bc of the volume that’s growing...that’s helpful to some and others despise it. Post works you made 

 

Harry, in the end, I just wish you would let me have at the red algae. It’s a tragedy you are rock blocking me man. Your corals look like the antlers of a Canadian moose fed testosterone but it’s wearing a red toupee. if you’d just chill and give me your aquarium for a minute we will Johnny bravo it you could have at least test rocked once to have pics and direct feedback. 

 

Even a test rock of your invader is excellent info... it’s challenging and I know eventually some fish or snails might control it but what harm is measuring and taking follow up pics of surgery mode, it’s just an option among many. At least we can mini model it- name another method that doesn’t involve subjecting the whole tank and corals to the water impacts/treatment as a guess if it will work.

 

 

ever seen coral bleaching in my threads since 2002

 

whats the harm in a little reef rework with unsolicited pattern analysis.

 

 

zero loss in the sand rinse thread with that level of large tanks and fish being flipped and beds being rinsed means repeatable science is being used. Everything you have typed about our tank restoration threads I can link you to a reef sage on reefcentral saying the same thing about pico reefs back when there were only two.

[Lynaea]

Umm, ... yup, thanks for proving our points. 

 

Are you getting kickbacks for pushing this idea or something???  ?

 

Seriously, there IS plenty of evidence that scrubbing and H2O2 will remove / kill things, but that alone is NOT a permanent long term solution, we all agree with that per comments above. 

 

My tank thread is linked below, ..... I’m not selling anything, just trying to help and share experiences, just like you!!

 

I like the fuzzy rock flower garden Harry’s got growing, but then if you check out my tank you’ll see I like to let things go a bit wild and free.  

 

[Simulated Fish]

@Lynaea I didn't blow off the question I directly answered it. I have attempted to restrict feeding Frozen with detrimental effect to both my fish and corals. They're living creatures and yes you can train many of them but the end of the day if they choose not to eat because they don't want to eat there's not much you can do about it. It's easy to say but are you willing to let creatures you've cared for years die just to switch food types? I went down that road once I don't plan on doing it again. Right now I'm trying to feed both at once, at a 80/20 ratio frozen to pellet, But they're still rejecting the pellets.

 

I'm a huge proponent of consistent husbandry, ask my wife. The number one complaint she has is how much time I spend maintaining and testing. It's not about the money it's about the time. 

 

It's because of this husbandry and I've been able to feed Frozen with minimal issues as my main food source. You're correct about nutrient build up it's impossible and closed system for it to not happen. 

 

As you see in my original post this isn't some quick fix or Band-Aid then I'm trying to apply, algae is a natural part of any tank. But it has such a strong foothold at this point if the goal is removing it to be back within check. Anyone who wants a zero algae tank doesn't understand how a natural system works, and has unreal expectations.

 

I think that's why the hydrogen peroxide treatments get such a bad rap just like with many of the things that are Hobby usually nothing good ever comes from moving quickly. Too many newcomers and inexperienced reefers think they can just use this as a cure-all for not maintaining a tank. It's no different from the countless threads of people using chemiclean then wondering why cyno is back a few months later. No treatment does any good without consistent maintenance. 

 

The goal here is not some overnight miracle. Nor is it replacement for proper husbandry.

This step is a deep clean to get over that hurdle the regular maintenance can return the tank to it's previous state.

 

 

I appreciate both your and @HarryPotter input I really do. So please don't stop commenting. No one to accept any treatment especially a radical on for the Blind Faith, that's why I made this post as I said before - so that future people have a reference and can weigh the evidence, see the rebuttal, and make an informed decision based on long term outcome. That's what I wasn't really able to find - long-term sustained benefits after a single deep clean.

 

[HarryPotter]

“The deal is: I take all the risk for reworking tanks and present the bulk data for pattern review WITH the public slant towards the negative, not the positive, so that everything produced is against a gradient filter. “

 

False. The unknowing reefer which follows your peroxide advice takes the risk. When you present a hypothesis as a law, you are a bigot and put everyone else at risk. 

 

What bulk data? 

 

“Zero loss in the sand rinse thread” 

 

@Hippieheadshot notice he goes to a different topic when we are talking about peroxide. Sand rinsing- I never commented on that. Tangential arguments. Fallacies everywhere. ?

 

 

In his pico, I can show screenshots which show you he does 100% water changes along with weekly algae rip-cleans. That is NOT THE METHOD HE IS ADVERTISING to you. His own tank blatantly shoves his so called solution in his face.

[brandon429]

I’m literally sure zero minutes have been spent reading the threads linked here before making attacks. It’s simply not open for debate if we are able to restore aquariums. The pics are right there. It’s funny how far you take it Harry, you’re a trip man

 

 Make commentary about the hundreds of pages of others feedback, were they misled in their takeaways?

 

 

i wasn’t expecting any actual work threads linked here, even low quality data ones, that was just a  funpoke   

 

Test rocking really should be a focus before anyones full restoration. It’s the incremental step that the prudent feel better about before big aquarium action, we’re working against the adage to go slow and orderly in reefing, this is law breaking agreed. 

 

 

There is a lot of money on the line in people’s coral purchases here, so of all these pages, how common was your attitude to the situation Harry? Did the posters in the thread speak as meanly and angrily as they could in doubt, or were we friendly trading science? 

 

 

 

 

 

[HarryPotter]

And I’m sure you have spent  zero minutes (ever) contemplating that MAYBE you would see significant results in your own tank if your “miracle” cure works ???

 

why dont you start by disproving the null hypothesis “There is no positive long term effect”. 

 

I am minoring in statistics, where we are mainly using advanced programs to determine whetger there is significance among a data set. Your so called data is worse then nominal, third hand unconfirmed anecdotes from the very fanatic that is trying to prove his miracle cure. You should rebottle h2o2 and sell it as a cancer treatment too  

[Lynaea]

Okay.... so first of all Brandon edited his post a lot after I responded which is a shame because I thought it was great as it was. For the record it said “my method” in addition to asking about our “work threads”. Obviously this is a hobby, I guess it’s good for people to take things seriously, but I would mostly prefer it didn’t feel like work. 

 

What do you do for a living Brandon? (This is a serious question, just wondering cause your posts are so sciency sometimes I struggle to understand them, and I ain’t stoopid. ?)

 

 

OP, I totally agree, I only mentioned the food thing because I know that over feeding was / is a lot of my issue, obviously your fish have to eat. I’ve seen a lot of suggestions lately to defrost and rinse frozen food before use .... I still don’t do it though.  

[brandon429]

And I’m sure you have spent  zero minutes (ever) contemplating that MAYBE you would see significant results in your own tank if your “miracle” cure works ???

 

 

this all flows from the reefbowl outbound... we agree there. All the sand rinse thread and the cycling thread and the peroxide threads are doing is taking what runs the reefbowl and upscaling it for large tanks. No harm no foul there for sure. 

 

Lynaea, I’m ok if you don’t use or advocate the method your system is nice and your prose is normal heh that makes communication nice. 

 

 

idea: this is the last of multiple threads harry is allowed to derail BEFORE closing, all upcoming he has to wait for the final stamp. Watch from the chair and force self restraint till we are done

then hammer away sir 

That order of operations alone will be ideal going forward 

 

 

[FISHnChix]

Wow such passion lmao... I had minimal corals to lose so I tried the rip clean.  Before the rip clean with peroxide if I scrubbed my rocks free of gha it would come back full force in a week. When I scrubbed them clean and the soaked in peroxide it took about 4 weeks to start coming back slowly.  I had some lps and mushrooms and nothing suffered(well killed bristle worms and corrline alage).  I had 2 fish that didn't notice either.. so for me yes it did work for a quick fix (better than manual removal only) but it's coming back slowly. I would say this is a good option for when you have made mistakes and alage has gone out of control.  I wouldn't say it's a cure but a great way to kinda start fresh and rework your husbandry program and find what will work long term. I belive a lot of people can get discouraged and quit bc their tank got out of control , this is method can be a savor if your at that point.

[HarryPotter]

7 minutes ago, brandon429 said:

All the things I type are from the significant results in my own tank, this all flows from the reefbowl outbound, we agree there. It takes that many pages to show what makes a pico reef live that long Harry

 

 

@brandon429 give me a clear answer here:

 

I have screenshots of you saying (Even recently) that you rip clean weekly in your reefbowl. Is this a lie, or is this true? 

 

If it is a lie, its just pathetic.  You advocate that a one time rip clean will be the miracle cure. 

 

if it is true, your method derives zero so called "proof" that your rip clean is effective. Your tank needs weekly rip cleans. 

[Lynaea]

10 minutes ago, HarryPotter said:

 You should rebottle h2o2 and sell it as a cancer treatment too  

Sorry, missed the bus on that one. There are already websites marketing 35% food grade H2O2 as a cure for darn near everything.  I found them when I was researching the Oxydator. 

[HarryPotter]

8 minutes ago, Weikel said:

Wow such passion lmao... I had minimal corals to lose so I tried the rip clean.  Before the rip clean with peroxide if I scrubbed my rocks free of gha it would come back full force in a week. When I scrubbed them clean and the soaked in peroxide it took about 4 weeks to start coming back slowly.  I had some lps and mushrooms and nothing suffered(well killed bristle worms and corrline alage).  I had 2 fish that didn't notice either.. so for me yes it did work for a quick fix (better than manual removal only) but it's coming back slowly. I would say this is a good option for when you have made mistakes and alage has gone out of control.  I wouldn't say it's a cure but a great way to kinda start fresh and rework your husbandry program and find what will work long term. I belive a lot of people can get discouraged and quit bc their tank got out of control , this is method can be a savor if your at that point.

 

Hi Weikel, thanks for chiming in. It is great to be proactive with maintenance, and im glad you are better off now. 

 

Brandon is claiming this is a long term solution, it gets rid of algae. That it will not grow back. This is false. In his own tank, he does weekly rip cleans. This demonstrates how ineffective it is from the very person promising miracle results. Yours lasts a month- now if you just did the sand and scrubbed rocks with a water change, I believe you would see more or less the same results. Long term algae prevention has more to do with nutrients

 

Your statement is pretty much what Lynaea and I are saying. It is BS to claim that a one time rip clean with peroxide will eliminate pest algae in a tank. It came back. 

 

@brandon429 is this the first anecdote you've read where it did not work? Or do you just suppress the ones that show otherwise from your memory? 

[Simulated Fish]

38 minutes ago, Lynaea said:

OP, I totally agree, I only mentioned the food thing because I know that over feeding was / is a lot of my issue, obviously your fish have to eat. I’ve seen a lot of suggestions lately to defrost and rinse frozen food before use .... I still don’t do it though.  

 

I actually do rinse mine as I dose Reef energy as part of my RedSea mag/Cal/trace regimen so I'm not worried about washing away the ammo acids LRS adds. I do agree I honestly don't think it makes a difference. I think a big problem with Frozen is all the small little specks and such add up quickly. Without a robust clean up crew or scavengers I can quickly add a lot of unwanted nutrients to a tank. 

 

Edit: Rinse in RODI of course!

[FISHnChix]

13 minutes ago, HarryPotter said:

 

Hi Weikel, thanks for chiming in. It is great to be proactive with maintenance, and im glad you are better off now. 

 

Brandon is claiming this is a long term solution, it gets rid of algae. That it will not grow back. This is false. In his own tank, he does weekly rip cleans. This demonstrates how ineffective it is from the very person promising miracle results. Yours lasts a month- now if you just did the sand and scrubbed rocks with a water change, I believe you would see more or less the same results. Long term algae prevention has more to do with nutrients

 

Your statement is pretty much what Lynaea and I are saying. It is BS to claim that a one time rip clean with peroxide will eliminate pest algae in a tank. It came back. 

 

@brandon429 is this the first anecdote you've read where it did not work? Or do you just suppress the ones that show otherwise from your memory? 

So when Brandon and I pm back and forth he was saying the same stuff and you and everyone else says about nutrient control for long term.. I don't have enough time to read though that crazy long rip clean post to see all claims haha. But Brandon was pretty clear to me at least saying it would 100 percent leave me with a clean tank when your done ( why wouldn't you if you scrubbed the rocks) , but he and I talked about alage coming back after awhile.. 

 

I guess it could be long term of you rip cleaned every few months but who wants to do that shit. My question to @HarryPotter is why do you think it is dangerous??  I mean don't get me wrong I wouldn't yank apart your tank thing is awesome and corals are all encrusted into place , but for the new reefer who has made mistakes and let the tank get out of control why not rip clean.  It is easier to start with a clean tank and change habits to keep clean than too try and battle all the out of control algae. 

[Lynaea]

Hydrogen peroxide in reef tanks is controversial, I’ve been looking into it recently because I was looking for something reef safe for ich. I am currently being told on another thread that it’s not a guaranteed cure.

 

However, in my research I found threads with Albert Thiel discussing using it and he stated that tanks using it (in an Oxydator) did not seem to have ich issues. This was mentioned as a side benefit in a long thread on H2O2 in general and the Oxydator in particular. 

I have only personally been dosing it for less than a week so I can really only say it appears to have helped and nothing has died. I cannot say that for other things I tried (like Rally)

I can certainty understand the concern, H2O2 is an oxidizer, that’s why it kills things but when added to water it becomes water plus oxygen, which is what is apparently ‘killing’ the ich and algae (in large direct doses) and raising ORP. Apparently it’s widely used in Europe (oxydator) and in shrimp tanks cause that’s who they’re being marketed to in the US now. 

 

I haven’t used it any where near long enough to pass judgement one way or the other. 

 

Edit:

my personal reason for not doing this was loss of micro fauna and as Harry says the ‘sterilizing’ effect this would likely have. It feels like Brandon is saying to just restart your tank from scratch and everything will be fine. We all know that’s not realistic if the underlying issues aren’t fixed. It’s kind of like saying let’s nuke North Korea, I’m sure there wouldn’t be any fallout from that either. 

[FISHnChix]

1 minute ago, Lynaea said:

Hydrogen peroxide in reef tanks is controversial, I’ve been looking into it recently because I was looking for something reef safe for ich. I am currently being told on another thread that it’s not a guaranteed cure.

 

However, in my research I found threads with Albert Thiel discussing using it and he stated that tanks using it (in an Oxydator) did not seem to have ich issues. This was mentioned as a side benefit in a long thread on H2O2 in general and the Oxydator in particular. 

I have only personally been dosing it for less than a week so I can really only say it appears to have helped and nothing has died. I cannot say that for other things I tried (like Rally)

I can certainty understand the concern, H2O2 is an oxidizer, that’s why it kills things but when added to water it becomes water plus oxygen, which is what is apparently ‘killing’ the ich and algae (in large direct doses) and raising ORP. Apparently it’s widely used in Europe (oxydator) and in shrimp tanks cause that’s who they’re being marketed to in the US now. 

 

I haven’t used it any where near long enough to pass judgement one way or the other. 

Yea I have read some on dosing a tank. Haven't really came to a conclusion on whether it's good or bad. I don't really see it as an issue to use outside the tank on rocks and then rinse the rocks and place them back in...

 

I will have to check it out as a medicine for ich.. that would be awesome seeing as we can't run copper in our reefs.. do you have a bad case of ich running through your tank? Would be an interesting thread to read as you try and dose peroxide to help combat it!!

[Simulated Fish]

I'm happy to see this is turning into a full-bodied discussion! 

[Lynaea]

14 minutes ago, Weikel said:

Yea I have read some on dosing a tank. Haven't really came to a conclusion on whether it's good or bad. I don't really see it as an issue to use outside the tank on rocks and then rinse the rocks and place them back in...

 

I will have to check it out as a medicine for ich.. that would be awesome seeing as we can't run copper in our reefs.. do you have a bad case of ich running through your tank? Would be an interesting thread to read as you try and dose peroxide to help combat it!!

there’s a discussion going on above, I’m not sure how bad it is, this is really the first time I’ve dealt with it. I know it’s been in the tank for 3-4 weeks at least. My blenny was suddenly looking pretty bad though so I tried it. To be honest I’ve been having so many issues with the tank and trying to juggle getting rid of the hair algae and then Dino’s (I think) and then ich I figured if it killed everything I would just clean out the tank and start over. 

 

Edit: just like with Brandon’s method though there seem to be as many threads supporting it as saying it’s hogwash. 

I will try to keep my tank journal updated with all my issues but I’m not trying to sell anyone on anything, the OP in the post above asked for alternative treatments so I posted. 

 

 

[FISHnChix]

2 minutes ago, Lynaea said:

there’s a discussion going on above, I’m not sure how bad it is, this is really the first time I’ve dealt with it. I know it’s been in the tank for 3-4 weeks at least. My blenny was suddenly looking pretty bad though so I tried it. To be honest I’ve been having so many issues with the tank and trying to juggle getting rid of the hair algae and then Dino’s (I think) and then ich I figured if it killed everything I would just clean out the tank and start over. 

 

 

 

Been there before, I've considered hitting the reset button a few time myself..

[brandon429]

The reason I’d said it was my risk earlier was because doses and calculated strategies were typed for all those tanks as I did here. If those amounts killed tanks I could never forward aquarium science the way I think it’s ideal, they’d all sound like harry. miscalculations and losses / people would darn sure post. Getting doubt and negativity, we see, is token 

 

but postive feedback from total strangers and for sure skeptics?

 

each aquarium in the posts collected is +1 practice and feedback in being dynamic to a reef event...for me, for them

 

in the sand rinse thread it’s about detritus you see, not chemistry measured from it. In this thread it’s about the retentive characters of algae mass, and how they self-fuel. If we combine sand rinse practice with specialized algae kill I can say from prior collections the after pics will look great.

 

 

 

in all the data, we collect mostly direct feedback and pics on actions CHOSE to be taken, they were driven to find us by algae the common methods couldn’t fix, and patterns emerged along the way what causes issues in aquariums, I like to chat about those patterns

 

The way Harry takes vitriol from that reflects on Harry’s life, not my threads. I’ll never answer your private messages Harry. I know this will cause you to post here those unreturned statements.

 

 

 I never said how often to clean, I showed you how to do it skip cycle when the need arises bc everyone was storing waste thinking you couldn’t clean for loss of systemic bacteria.

 

 

Harry is trolling bad, I’m not learning about biology from his posts at all

 

i rip clean about twice a year (my tank is one gallon and fifteen hundred mouths of coral) and pico reefs change the water once a week, it’s not the hyperbole you used Harry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anything I advise someone to do with an aquarium is coming from the way I see patterns in all the data on the peroxide and rinse threads, it’s to save anyone the research time. This very tank we are working on, about to be sharp

 

[HarryPotter]

 

 

Brandon this will be my last post here, as you do not take into account anything that I or others have said. Challenging your claims is not trolling. 

 

   If the pico is rip cleaned even twice a year, you have once again confirmed that your “Miracle Solution” is a temporary short term patch. Your rip clean w H2O2 is a temporary patch for pico and small tanks in which you can remove all the rock, pick off all the algea, and spray your magic H2O2. It is not realistic for anything other than a pico. Many tanks have larger rock structures, or delicate colonies that would break if removed. 

 

The algae returns just like before in a few months- with results varying between one month and six. The H2O2 does not kill it, you just spend hours picking your rock with a razor so it has less magnitude to grow back with. 

 

I have noticed in that thread people will post “good results” a week after they spent hours and hours picking algae off the rock. But later, it just returns and grows back.

 

H2O2 inarguably sterilizes the water column- the harmful results of such not established. 

 

Don't sell your hypothesis as a scientific law. A “miracle solution”. Anyone that does that, especially to an inexperienced reefer, deserves to be banned IMO.

 

 

 

[HarryPotter]

21 hours ago, Weikel said:

Been there before, I've considered hitting the reset button a few time myself..

 

I do that in my Cichlid tank, bleaching rocks bi-yearly. Enough bacteria lives in the 5” deep sandbed to do that. There isn’t a “specific” algae , but everything in it gets dark over time as the rock goes brown. Of course with a reef, if you can’t get the corals off that wouldn’t work. If the rock doesn’t have corals you can bleach it and use it again, a  way to get out 100% of obnoxious algae instead of than picking at the surface- the top 10%_ without a razor.