Frogspawn Dying?

[markalot]

23 minutes ago, rdck99 said:

So you don't believe the slimer would be leeching something that could be affecting the frogspawn down current?

 

No alterations to PH - had the LFS test that too and it was at 8.3. I use BRS' two part dose and run those pumps for about 10 min each night. I've been doing that for a couple years.

You're scaring me just a bit.     First, look at the size of my slimer in my 150 gallon (link in signature), also note size of frog on the right side of the tank.  SPS corals do not produce toxins like soft corals do, nor does any stony coral that I know of.  

 

2 part dosing should be very small for you, 10 minutes is an insane amount.  I'm using 110 ml of each part daily, dosed 10 minutes apart, divided into 24 daily doses.  I don't see anything in your tank that would use that much Alk, my guess is your usage would be 20ml a day at the very most.  I suspect you had a typo above or your dosers are very very slow.  Regardless, never hurts to cover the basics.

[rdck99]

11 minutes ago, markalot said:

You're scaring me just a bit.     First, look at the size of my slimer in my 150 gallon (link in signature), also note size of frog on the right side of the tank.  SPS corals do not produce toxins like soft corals do, nor does any stony coral that I know of.  

 

2 part dosing should be very small for you, 10 minutes is an insane amount.  I'm using 110 ml of each part daily, dosed 10 minutes apart, divided into 24 daily doses.  I don't see anything in your tank that would use that much Alk, my guess is your usage would be 20ml a day at the very most.  I suspect you had a typo above or your dosers are very very slow.  Regardless, never hurts to cover the basics.

Yeah, looking at your tank, it's hard to see how my little slimer could be such a trouble maker. I don't know, I'm grasping at straws and the 'warfare' thing was mentioned by multiple sources, plus the theory fits in some ways (my params are good, the frogspwan is down current, the slimer was recently added, etc.)...who knows.

 

The BRS dosing pumps pump 1.1 ml's per min, so a 10 min dosing period doses about 11 ml's, so not too far off from the 20ml per day you guessed my tank would need. 

[FISHnChix]

Did you ever do a water change since the frog shriveled up?

[rdck99]

15 minutes ago, Weikel said:

Did you ever do a water change since the frog shriveled up?

Yes, did one on Mon. Have another batch of water ready, but not sure if it's doing more harm than good. If I moved things around in the tank, so the frogspawn wasn't downstream, then I planned to water change then, because that'll stir a lot of stuff up. 

[markalot]

2 hours ago, rdck99 said:

Yeah, looking at your tank, it's hard to see how my little slimer could be such a trouble maker. I don't know, I'm grasping at straws and the 'warfare' thing was mentioned by multiple sources, plus the theory fits in some ways (my params are good, the frogspwan is down current, the slimer was recently added, etc.)...who knows.

 

The BRS dosing pumps pump 1.1 ml's per min, so a 10 min dosing period doses about 11 ml's, so not too far off from the 20ml per day you guessed my tank would need. 

 

Yep, you have the slower pumps so that makes perfect sense.    

 

I'm always torn on doing something or nothing.  In this case riding it out might be good, but if it's a contaminant then waiting is bad.

 

So no additives other than two part?  Nothing to adjust PH?   Nothing to lower PO4?   

 

If no then the contaminant must be in the water, probably the new water OR something was spilled / dropped into the tank.   

[ajmckay]

8 hours ago, rdck99 said:

Thanks everyone for the replies - you all are awesome! 

 

The frogspawn and mushroom conditions have not improved. I will give more detail and answers to some of the specific comments later this morning. 

 

This frogspawn began as 3 heads about 4.5 years ago and grew into this colony of over 40. Pretty maddening. 

The main thing is identifying what's wrong and being proactive.  Here's a story about a coral I successfully saved once.  Unfortunately it died in Jan due to f*ck(#g flatworms.  I was dumb and when I saw one I was like "Oh, you can wait a day or 2 before dealing with this".  Nope. That was a bad call.  I'll never buy a wall euphyllia again that's for sure.

 

The fact that mushrooms and the frog are on the same rock to me seems irrelevant.  What does seem relevant is the flow pattern.  There's a leather and a bunch of polyps before the frogspawn and mushroom rock and I'm wondering if the flow is taking the allelopathic toxins and blowing them straight into the frog/mush rock?

 

It's just a theory...  Trying to think of a way you could test it...  Do you have the ability to move that rock to a clean hospital tank?  Could you add some chemi-pure or purigen? A bunch of carbon would probably work also.  Adding one of those along with a quick water change might cause some improvement and confirm the cause.

 

http://wetwebmedia.com/carycompfaqs.htm  

 

Honestly though, other than that I'm still stumped.  Allelopathy is tough because as far as I understand it different corals can have varied responses (so it's completely possible that the euphyllia and mushrooms are affected but not the rics or other corals).  There are a number of environmental considerations as well. 

[rdck99]

1 hour ago, markalot said:

 

Yep, you have the slower pumps so that makes perfect sense.    

 

I'm always torn on doing something or nothing.  In this case riding it out might be good, but if it's a contaminant then waiting is bad.

 

So no additives other than two part?  Nothing to adjust PH?   Nothing to lower PO4?   

 

If no then the contaminant must be in the water, probably the new water OR something was spilled / dropped into the tank.   

No other additives. I keep a small fuge in the rear chamber and I run chemi-pure and purigen in the basket, which I'm going to replace this evening.

1 hour ago, ajmckay said:

The main thing is identifying what's wrong and being proactive.  Here's a story about a coral I successfully saved once.  Unfortunately it died in Jan due to f*ck(#g flatworms.  I was dumb and when I saw one I was like "Oh, you can wait a day or 2 before dealing with this".  Nope. That was a bad call.  I'll never buy a wall euphyllia again that's for sure.

 

The fact that mushrooms and the frog are on the same rock to me seems irrelevant.  What does seem relevant is the flow pattern.  There's a leather and a bunch of polyps before the frogspawn and mushroom rock and I'm wondering if the flow is taking the allelopathic toxins and blowing them straight into the frog/mush rock?

 

It's just a theory...  Trying to think of a way you could test it...  Do you have the ability to move that rock to a clean hospital tank?  Could you add a ton of carbon or chemi-pure or purigen?   Adding those along with a quick water change might cause some improvement.

 

http://wetwebmedia.com/carycompfaqs.htm  

 

Honestly though, other than that I'm still stumped.  Allelopathy is odd because as far as I understand it different corals can have varied responses (so it's completely possible that the euphyllia and mushrooms are affected but not the rics or other corals).  There are a number of environmental considerations as well. 

Unfortunately, no hospital tank for me at this time. I'm going to replace my chemi-pure and purigen tonight, and we'll see.

[rdck99]

Inserting three photos. A brown goo is developing over the top of some of the heads. A few heads around the exterior of the colony still show bits of green, but not many. Perhaps I should cut those off?

 

Close up of the rock the frogspawn is on. You can kind of see some of the m white debris that’s settled on it. 

 

The large zoa colony to the right no has most of its heads closed. Perhaps related, perhaps not - it just happened. 

[Pjanssen]

Did anyone spray any kind of aerosol nearby, or light a candle, deodorizer etc.

[Pjanssen]

Brown jelly s not good.

[rdck99]

Looking like BJD. Don’t know how it wasn’t so apparent until today. I’m siphoning out - you can see in the pic, the bottom half has been siphoned. I’m thinking I should take it out, frag pieces that look okay, and hopefully my Duncan’s wont be affected. Seems like the most appropriate response? Doesn’t sounds like there’s much I can do to save it at this point?

[Sancho]

Im having the same issue here. However my only change is using GFO in a reactor. Some of my frogspawn Ive had for 10+ years and I noticed that my zoas, shrooms are also not happy. Have you made any changes regarding GFO? 

[Pjanssen]

9 minutes ago, rdck99 said:

Looking like BJD. Don’t know how it wasn’t so apparent until today. I’m siphoning out- you can see in the pic, the right side has been siphoned. I’m thinking I should take it, drag pieces that look, and maybe my Duncan’s will have a chance? Seems like the most appropriate response? Doesn’t sounds like there’s much I can do to save it at this point?

I'm sorry.

[rdck99]

1 hour ago, Pjanssen said:

Did anyone spray any kind of aerosol nearby, or light a candle, deodorizer etc.

No, I don’t think so. My only guess is I fragged a branch off a couple months ago and it got banged around a bit as I glued it back in place. Didn’t think much of it, but that’s the only stress I can think of that would have made it susceptible to this. The frag I gave my buddy is doing okay and that pretty pic in my OP was literally just last week. Mega bummer. 

 

I ended up not keeping a single head of it - as I tried to to siphon the BJD out, it came out very stringy, smelly and cloudy, along with the remaining green tissue - none of the heads seemed alive, more like the neon green was already detached and just sitting in the crevice. 

[rdck99]

56 minutes ago, Sancho said:

Im having the same issue here. However my only change is using GFO in a reactor. Some of my frogspawn Ive had for 10+ years and I noticed that my zoas, shrooms are also not happy. Have you made any changes regarding GFO? 

No GFO running in my tank. Looks like my problem turned out to be BJD. 

[ajmckay]

BJD's a bitch...  I wish I could say that some of the heads would likely survive but I can't really.  

 

I was in a reputable LFS last year (it's a hike from me) and they were having a problem with BJD with many, if not most of their euphyllia.  I swear I saw some of them vanish during the time I was there.   

 

My experience is that BJD sets in pretty quick after an injury as long as the pathogen is present (I don't remember what the suspects are, but they're extremely common) so I don't know if the fragging a few weeks ago was the cause or not... Could have been a number of things... Flow too strong, chemical warfare, etc...  After all - the issue with the shrooms persists.   Don't think you're 100% clear - I would still go ahead with refreshing the chemical filtration.  

 

 

Sucks though - that was an impressive coral.  

 

[markalot]

10 hours ago, Sancho said:

Im having the same issue here. However my only change is using GFO in a reactor. Some of my frogspawn Ive had for 10+ years and I noticed that my zoas, shrooms are also not happy. Have you made any changes regarding GFO? 

 

That makes sense though.  GFO in a reactor can cause PO4 to plummet which can flat out kill corals.  GFO is dangerous.

 

Purigen question, it's an older bag that's in there?  Not recharged or replaced recently?    

 

Other random ideas.

 

Older tank, deeper sandbed and it released some sulpher...  whatever it is into the water?

Massive KH spike.

Contaminant in the water, possibly chloramines since it's related to a water change.

 

Hopefully you can turn it around.

[rdck99]

10 hours ago, ajmckay said:

BJD's a bitch...  I wish I could say that some of the heads would likely survive but I can't really.  

 

I was in a reputable LFS last year (it's a hike from me) and they were having a problem with BJD with many, if not most of their euphyllia.  I swear I saw some of them vanish during the time I was there.   

 

My experience is that BJD sets in pretty quick after an injury as long as the pathogen is present (I don't remember what the suspects are, but they're extremely common) so I don't know if the fragging a few weeks ago was the cause or not... Could have been a number of things... Flow too strong, chemical warfare, etc...  After all - the issue with the shrooms persists.   Don't think you're 100% clear - I would still go ahead with refreshing the chemical filtration.  

 

 

Sucks though - that was an impressive coral.  

 

Yeah, once I took the colony out, I replaced the chemi pure and purigen (I try to do that every 3 months anyway) and went ahead with a 3g water change. This morning, all the red mushrooms were still closed, as was the middle zoa colony that started closing yesterday, but I didn't think BJD would affect zoas, shrooms or SPS? Tough to tell in the morning, when the lights just turn on...hopefully, I come home to good news this evening. I'll be careful with my duncan colony going forward - if there are any signs of distress, even if I don't see brown stuff, I'll begin a series of precautionary dips - seems like that's the only thing known to have some impact on BJD.

[Indiana Reefin]

What are your nitrates at? Frogspawn/hammers do not do well with nitrates 25 or higher in my experience 

[rdck99]

1 hour ago, Indiana Reefin said:

What are your nitrates at? Frogspawn/hammers do not do well with nitrates 25 or higher in my experience 

If asking me, my nitrates were less than 5. Thanks for the thought!

[burtbollinger]

4 hours ago, markalot said:

 

That makes sense though.  GFO in a reactor can cause PO4 to plummet which can flat out kill corals.  GFO is dangerous.

 

 

 

this is is important.  I treat GFO like its radioactive...I have it, but very, very careful with it....always underdose by HALF.  

 

as to what caused it?  my wild guess is that if that is, in fact, a giant leather on the side of that tank...then its something related.  

 

was a neat coral....sorry for your loss.

 

as an aside:  going to the frag swap this weekend?  might be a good chance to score somethings to replace it.

 

 

[rdck99]

5 hours ago, burtbollinger said:

this is is important.  I treat GFO like its radioactive...I have it, but very, very careful with it....always underdose by HALF.  

 

as to what caused it?  my wild guess is that if that is, in fact, a giant leather on the side of that tank...then its something related.  

 

was a neat coral....sorry for your loss.

 

as an aside:  going to the frag swap this weekend?  might be a good chance to score somethings to replace it.

 

 

You think the leather may have caused some irritation to the frogspawn, making it susceptible to the BJD? 

 

I wasn't planning on going to the swap, but who knows. I'll probably stay away from a replacement coral for awhile...make sure my duncans are okay and hopefully let any lingering BJD in the water column die off (if that's even possible) - I'll probably add another LPS in its place, so want to be extra careful before adding. 

[burtbollinger]

15 minutes ago, rdck99 said:

You think the leather may have caused some irritation to the frogspawn, making it susceptible to the BJD? 

 

I wasn't planning on going to the swap, but who knows. I'll probably stay away from a replacement coral for awhile...make sure my duncans are okay and hopefully let any lingering BJD in the water column die off (if that's even possible) - I'll probably add another LPS in its place, so want to be extra careful before adding. 

I'll say this....in a million years, I'd never have a leather that big in a small tank with LPS I cared about.  (i'm paranoid tho...people do it all the time successfully)

 

you also have a giant group of invasive palys in there...which don't look happy....I dont think they crash tanks and kill corals, but then again....not 100% to speed on paly coral warfare.

 

regardless, I'd be running a reactor with some rox carbon with that big leather looming.

My guess of what happened is the leather went to war.

 

also...someone else mentioned this...but your duncans only being open at night....thats very concerning to me...BUT a Duo at 25% is right on...I run mine at 20%

anyway,.you should come out.  Should be some good stuff there.