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Frogspawn Dying?


rdck99

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Last Thu, I did a 3g water change using RSCP salt and since then, my Frogspawn and the red mushrooms on the same rock have been closed. Today, the frogspawn has receded so much, almost none of him can be seen. I tested Alk and it’s at 8.0 and Ca is around 400. I’m mixing a new batch of water now, so hopefully that helps, but any ideas? The RFA, green slimer and other inhabitants look fine (duncans are always closed until night). I’ve copied some pics, as well as one of the frogspawn from Just last week, before he got upset. 

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tdannhauser30

thats so weird that its only on happening to corals on that rock. That frogspawn looks like no flesh at all almost..... no idea sorry i cant help but that sucks i hope wc helps!!

Where do you add your wc water and how throughly was it mixed? could it have been maybe the salt wasn't all dissolved and salt burned that particular rock? Only reason I say that is because it looks like your return nozzle would direct flow directly at the mushrooms and frogspawn, so maybe they would be more affected? then again the ricordea look fine... idk definitely grasping at straws here but that just doesnt make any sense to me why It would happen..

 

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RODI ater mixed for several days. Tonight’s emergency change will only mix for a couple hours. 

 

I’ll also add that the water MAYBE seems a bit cloudy? I may also be making that up. And a small brown algae bloom seemed to happen shortly after last week’s change. 

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U mentioned the type of salt makes me think you changed salts?? Or got a new batch of salt. In my experience alk swing from a water change causes my Lps to shrink.. what was the alk before the water change.. 

 

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Doesn't that salt mix to a really high alk? Like 12? Could be alk shock. At least that is what it looks like from looking at the hammer. Test the alk of your newly mixed water. 

 

I try to use salt mixes that are around NSW parameters. 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Weikel said:

U mentioned the type of salt makes me think you changed salts?? Or got a new batch of salt. In my experience alk swing from a water change causes my Lps to shrink.. what was the alk before the water change.. 

 

No change, just trying to add as much detail as I can. It’s been RSCP for five years. Thanks for the thought though. 

 

4 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

Doesn't that salt mix to a really high alk? Like 12? Could be alk shock. At least that is what it looks like from looking at the hammer. Test the alk of your newly mixed water. 

 

I try to use salt mixes that are around NSW parameters. 

 

 

Will do but my water changes are pretty consistent each week, so last week shouldn’t have been out of the Norm? Plus, I’d think an Alk swing would affect the slimer more than anything, but worth looking at. Thanks for the comment. 

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Certain acros have been fairly resistant to swings for me, my hammer went to hell when I accidentally overdosed alk though. Birdsnest were another that would just die if I had an alk swing. Acros were just fine though.

 

Did any abnormal amount of debris get stirred up or anything?

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Just now, Tamberav said:

Certain acros have been fairly resistant to swings for me, my hammer went to hell when I accidentally overdosed alk though. Birdsnest were another that would just die if I had an alk swing. Acros were just fine though.

 

Did any abnormal amount of debris get stirred up or anything?

I don’t think so, who knows. 

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Hmm well I had my skimmer start skimming wetter last week so my top off water lowered my alk and my hammer and frogswpan closed up just like that and after a water change they are back to normal.. hope it works for you!!!!

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Rscp salt has specific mixing instructions.

 

Per red sea.

 

Add salt to water, stir well. After 2 hrs add heater and powerhead.

Do not mix for more than 4 hrs.

 

Store for no more than 5 days.

 

Rscp normally has very high alk, it's odd yours is mixing at 8?

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That was a beautiful frogspawn. I'm sorry but it doesn't look like its savable to me. Maybe there are a couple of heads that you can find that still have flesh that you can save. It is odd that that's the only thing so severely affected by whatever happened. Usual culprits are alkalinity, salinity and temperature swings.

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Frogs are very sensitive to rapid changes in nutrients, mine seems to ignore Alk.  If I drop PO4 or NO3 too low it suffers.  I coudl keep acros before I could keep Frogsoawns and Hammers healthy, it was maddening.   Nowadays I only have to worry about health in my smaller 40 gallon tank, and when they start to shrink I know PO4 is too low and I actually dose it (Seachem Phosphorus).   In my large tank, even with super low PO4 my giant Frogspawn seems oblivious, maybe because there's more fish and more food particles in the water.

 

I killed a 10 head blue trumpet coral by dosing PhosphateRx to lower PO4 3 days in a row.  By the end of the week that coral was gone and the frogs and hammers very unhappy.  GFO can do this as well, and it can happen quick.  Have you done any other maintenance besides the water change?

 

If not, and if the tank is older, I would suspect some kind of contaminant.  

 

One more thing:  duncans are always closed until night

 

This is wrong, they only do that if the light is too bright or something else is seriously wrong.  

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I would leave the frog in the water... mine looked completely dead, could not see any flesh and it still made a full recovery but took some time to do so. It had a small amount of flesh hidden inside that grew back.

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3 hours ago, Tamberav said:

I would leave the frog in the water... mine looked completely dead, could not see any flesh and it still made a full recovery but took some time to do so. It had a small amount of flesh hidden inside that grew back.

Same here with a hammer coral just last week!!

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I feel like an ALK swing is definitely a possibility but I also feel like there's something else we're not hitting on...  Note that I don't think it's a goner based on the picture - I still see stuff scrunched up in there. 

 

- Any additions to the tank that coincide roughly with this happening?  The thought here is that the addition of another coral could introduce some allelopathy. Additionally this could add various parasites, predators, pathogens, etc...

- Did the coral look completely normal before the water change? Did it look just like this after?  Or have you noticed a gradual (or quick) decline after the water change?

- Anything special happen around the time of the water change? Did you start dosing anything?  Introduce carbon or other media? Introduce a new macroalgae, new lighting, etc?

- Is the flesh missing on the sides also? 

- Did you notice any brown goo coming from it recently?  Does it smell bad?   BJD (brown jelly disease) can kill euphyllia very quickly - though I'm doubtful that's the case here as you would likely notice at least something wrong. 

 

Good luck.  Maybe decrease the flow and lighting just a bit to help it ease in.

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tdannhauser30

we all focused on the frogspawn too when it looks like the mushrooms are all scrunched up and the only other thing affected by what is going on, coincidentally on the same rock.

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8 hours ago, tdannhauser30 said:

we all focused on the frogspawn too when it looks like the mushrooms are all scrunched up and the only other thing affected by what is going on, coincidentally on the same rock.

I noticed that too, and the OP mentioned them. I think they will bounce back, but I guess the question is why just this rock?

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Thanks everyone for the replies - you all are awesome! 

 

The frogspawn and mushroom conditions have not improved. I will give more detail and answers to some of the specific comments later this morning. 

 

This frogspawn began as 3 heads about 4.5 years ago and grew into this colony of over 40. Pretty maddening. 

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My thought is the mushrooms are scrunched up because the frog receded and possibly dropped slime or tentacles or chemical warfare near itself... which happens to have mushrooms there. So the frog being effected in turn effected the corals near it. Can't be for certain but looks like a possibility from the way the power-head is facing although still weird everything else looks okay.

 

Is there any crud or slime on that rock? Can't tell if that is coraline or cyano or something.

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3 hours ago, rdck99 said:

Thanks everyone for the replies - you all are awesome! 

 

The frogspawn and mushroom conditions have not improved. I will give more detail and answers to some of the specific comments later this morning. 

 

This frogspawn began as 3 heads about 4.5 years ago and grew into this colony of over 40. Pretty maddening. 

I have a hammer like that, and I've even fragged it several times. I would be crushed if I lost it.

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1 hour ago, Tamberav said:

My thought is the mushrooms are scrunched up because the frog receded and possibly dropped slime or tentacles or chemical warfare near itself... which happens to have mushrooms there. So the frog being effected in turn effected the corals near it. Can't be for certain but looks like a possibility from the way the power-head is facing although still weird everything else looks okay.

 

Is there any crud or slime on that rock? Can't tell if that is coraline or cyano or something.

21 hours ago, ajmckay said:

I feel like an ALK swing is definitely a possibility but I also feel like there's something else we're not hitting on...  Note that I don't think it's a goner based on the picture - I still see stuff scrunched up in there. 

 

- Any additions to the tank that coincide roughly with this happening?  The thought here is that the addition of another coral could introduce some allelopathy. Additionally this could add various parasites, predators, pathogens, etc...

- Did the coral look completely normal before the water change? Did it look just like this after?  Or have you noticed a gradual (or quick) decline after the water change?

- Anything special happen around the time of the water change? Did you start dosing anything?  Introduce carbon or other media? Introduce a new macroalgae, new lighting, etc?

- Is the flesh missing on the sides also? 

- Did you notice any brown goo coming from it recently?  Does it smell bad?   BJD (brown jelly disease) can kill euphyllia very quickly - though I'm doubtful that's the case here as you would likely notice at least something wrong. 

 

Good luck.  Maybe decrease the flow and lighting just a bit to help it ease in.

I think you guys are touching on what may be the issue - I just left my LFS and they also said warfare, perhaps with the green slimer, which was added about 3 weeks ago? From a flow standpoint, it'd make sense but not sure why the slimer and frogspawn would get a long for the first two weeks and not now? And to answer ajmckay's other questions, yes, it seemed fine until last Thu's water change, and no other additions, dosing changes, etc. I do feel like some stringy white residue is on the rock, but I wasn't sure if that was always there, but just usually covered when the mushrooms are open. 

 

I have three large rocks in my tank - one with frogspawn, one with the slimer and one with a toadstool. I probably need to keep the slimer in the middle, but perhaps I can flip flop the toadstool and frogspawn rocks, so it's not down stream from the slimer? Would the slimer then just mess with the toadstool? Any thoughts on that approach? I didn't think slimers could be such bad tank inhabitants?

On 3/20/2018 at 12:39 AM, Clown79 said:

Rscp salt has specific mixing instructions.

 

Per red sea.

 

Add salt to water, stir well. After 2 hrs add heater and powerhead.

Do not mix for more than 4 hrs.

 

Store for no more than 5 days.

 

Rscp normally has very high alk, it's odd yours is mixing at 8?

I definitely don't 100% adhere to those guidelines, but it's been okay for 5 years, so I imagine my routine has been okay. Tamerav was right in that the Alk of 8 I originally mentioned was for the tank water - HOWEVER, I just had my LFS test my tank water again (after Mon's water change), as well as a batch of newly mixed RSCP - here are the results:

 

Tank Water:  Alk 10 / Ca 470

New RSCP Water:  Alk 8 / Ca 440 

 

When I tested the new water, I got 7, so that's definitely concerning. I'll try stirring the mix and making a new batch and see if that helps, otherwise, I may contact RSCP for a new bucket?

On 3/20/2018 at 7:47 AM, markalot said:

Frogs are very sensitive to rapid changes in nutrients, mine seems to ignore Alk.  If I drop PO4 or NO3 too low it suffers.  I coudl keep acros before I could keep Frogsoawns and Hammers healthy, it was maddening.   Nowadays I only have to worry about health in my smaller 40 gallon tank, and when they start to shrink I know PO4 is too low and I actually dose it (Seachem Phosphorus).   In my large tank, even with super low PO4 my giant Frogspawn seems oblivious, maybe because there's more fish and more food particles in the water.

 

I killed a 10 head blue trumpet coral by dosing PhosphateRx to lower PO4 3 days in a row.  By the end of the week that coral was gone and the frogs and hammers very unhappy.  GFO can do this as well, and it can happen quick.  Have you done any other maintenance besides the water change?

 

If not, and if the tank is older, I would suspect some kind of contaminant.  

 

One more thing:  duncans are always closed until night

 

This is wrong, they only do that if the light is too bright or something else is seriously wrong.  

I was only saying that my duncans open at night - not all duncans. This same duncan colony used to open during the day, but it's changed over the years and lighting may be the reason - I run a Nanobox Duo at about 25% power on whites for a six hour photo period. Does that seem like too much?

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The slimer is not toxic to anything though it can kill if something touches it.   A rapid Alk swing could do this but I would have expected the slimer to brown and die first.  If the slimer dies in the next week then Alk swing is probably the culprit, they can show a delayed reaction to water quality issues.   

 

Run the nanobox with mostly blues for a while and see if anything changes.   I don't thin that's an issue though.

 

You haven't tried to alter PH or anything like that, correct?  No new additives, anything else?  To grow such a large colony and then have this happen is worrisome.   Have you ever supplemented for Alk loss or has it always been RSCP?  

 

Water changes for Alk won't work with SPS by the way, you will eventually run into issues if/when the slimer starts to use up ALk and calcium.

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22 minutes ago, markalot said:

The slimer is not toxic to anything though it can kill if something touches it.   A rapid Alk swing could do this but I would have expected the slimer to brown and die first.  If the slimer dies in the next week then Alk swing is probably the culprit, they can show a delayed reaction to water quality issues.   

 

Run the nanobox with mostly blues for a while and see if anything changes.   I don't thin that's an issue though.

 

You haven't tried to alter PH or anything like that, correct?  No new additives, anything else?  To grow such a large colony and then have this happen is worrisome.   Have you ever supplemented for Alk loss or has it always been RSCP?  

 

Water changes for Alk won't work with SPS by the way, you will eventually run into issues if/when the slimer starts to use up ALk and calcium.

So you don't believe the slimer would be leeching something that could be affecting the frogspawn down current?

 

No alterations to PH - had the LFS test that too and it was at 8.3. I use BRS' two part dose and run those pumps for about 10 min each night. I've been doing that for a couple years.

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