Scaling up the "hamster bottle" ATO design

[DarkMagic]

I'm trying to design a slightly lager version of the "hamster bottle" ATO (employed with great success by @Nano sapiens here: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/172031-nano-sapiens-12g-ye-olde-mixed-reef/).

 

The basic concept is that a container of water is held above your tank with a tube running down. When the water level in your tank exposes the open end of the tube to air, bubbles go up and water comes out. When the water level is covering the opening of the tube, water is trapped just like in the dog and cat water bottles. I'd like to do exactly this, but instead of using a hamster bottle, I'd like to use something that's in the range of 0.5-1.5 gallons so that I only have to fill the ATO every other week or so.

 

Building this thing has been much more of a challenge than expected because I cannot find a sufficiently airtight container that can withstand 2' of head siphon pressure. Everything I've tried either crumples, leaks air, or both. I've tried the following:

 

1. One of these things with a tap: https://www.amazon.com/Arrow-Products-00744-Container-2-5-Gallon/dp/B008VET4Q8/ (tap leaked air and the container crumpled)
2. An "airtight" flour container: https://www.amazon.com/Prepworks-by-Progressive-Flour-ProKeeper/dp/B00WR9DEOQ/ (nice stiff plastic but the seal leaked)
3. A rubbermaid water pitcher: https://www.amazon.com/Rubbermaid-7E60-1-Gallon-Pitcher-Red/dp/B000XERI8U/ (cap leaked air despite having a rubber gasket, silicon sealed flip top which didn't help)
4. A repurposed peanut container (leaked air and crumpled at the corners).
5. A whey protein container (leaked air through lid and paper insert was crumpled, silicone sealing insert didn't help).

 

Anyone have any ideas for a container that's likely to withstand the pressure and hold a seal?

 

[HarryPotter]

When you can get a float valve for cheaper and not have to worry about withstanding pressure, I don’t see why you would do this method. 

[Clown79]

I've used a water bottle to make mine with a diy bottle holder out of plastic.

 

This method really is not going to work with a larger container. Too many variables.

 

There are other diy methods that work for larger water volumes

[DarkMagic]

1 hour ago, HarryPotter said:

I don’t see why you would do this method.

I don't have a sump. If I go the float valve method it will be in my display and ruin an otherwise nice aesthetic I have. 

 

16 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

There are other diy methods that work for larger water volumes

What do you think works better for larger water volumes?

[HarryPotter]

Just now, DarkMagic said:

I don't have a sump. If I go the float valve method it will be in my display and ruin an otherwise nice aesthetic I have. 

 

What do you think works better for larger water volumes?

 

You have an AIO? What about a DIY auto using a float switch?

[DarkMagic]

Yea, pretty much. Here's my tank thread: 

 

 

It's just a 5 gallon tank built into a bookshelf. A float switch would be less bad aesthetically, but then I'd have to sacrifice another shelf of books to a water container, plus get a pump and a controller. Not the worst thing in the world, but not ideal. The best case scenario is having a water container above the tank feeding water without any float switches. I think it's possible, just need to find a container that's strong and airtight. 

[Nelson]

Something like this?

[MainelyReefer]

I make these using HDPE Nalgene bottles and a few john guest fittings, I have scaled it up to a 32oz bottle and it works great, they have plenty of options out there.  For the upper tube I used 3/8" LLDPE RO tubing and for the drain I used a 1/4" JG with inline ball valve to reduce drain to a slow drip.  I have been planning on trying to sell cheap small nalgene ATO's as the market has nothing in the 30-50$ price range for ATO's, I already bought all the supplies(my wife thinks I'm crazy) but I'm procrastinating.  Seriously though look into nalgene they definitely have gallon+ sized containers with lids that seal and are made with a multi use quality.

[Cintax]

Perhaps something made of glass.

[psidriven]

maybe make it out of acrylic? something like this?

 

http://www.redstarfish-aquarium.com/sale-9090158-aquarium-2l-automatic-water-refill-mt-02.html

[DarkMagic]

5 hours ago, GraniteReefer said:

I make these using HDPE Nalgene bottles and a few john guest fittings, I have scaled it up to a 32oz bottle and it works great, they have plenty of options out there.  For the upper tube I used 3/8" LLDPE RO tubing and for the drain I used a 1/4" JG with inline ball valve to reduce drain to a slow drip.  I have been planning on trying to sell cheap small nalgene ATO's as the market has nothing in the 30-50$ price range for ATO's, I already bought all the supplies(my wife thinks I'm crazy) but I'm procrastinating.  Seriously though look into nalgene they definitely have gallon+ sized containers with lids that seal and are made with a multi use quality.

Interesting! I'm assuming the nalgene bottle you're using is round. Did you have trouble getting a tight seal on the bulkhead? Any chance you can post a pic?

 

6 hours ago, Nelson said:

Something like this?

Haha, that def looks airtight! Where did you find that and/or what did you search for?

 

3 hours ago, psidriven said:

maybe make it out of acrylic? something like this?

That's an interesting design... wonder how they add more water to it?

5 hours ago, Cintax said:

Perhaps something made of glass.

An airtight glass box would definitely work, but would be tricky to clean, would involve some serious drilling, and as a total DIY might come out looking shoddy. Something like a glass jug would require me to drill a curved surface which is a new level of scary. Unless maybe you know of a container that would work?

[MainelyReefer]

No issue on the bulkhead seal(I actually drill and tap the bottom and screw in a threaded JG BV, I have even made one using their square type containers but the structure of the round ones was stronger and I have a click clamp which can be fastened to the wall to hold the round bottles.  I currently use it without the wall clamp as I have an AIO that allows the bottle to sit on the back/false wall for support.  Picture of the first model on the Poopico that's been in use since early 2016 made from my brothers super old nalgene.  

And here is a picture of a model I built that is 48oz, it has a clamp attached(used to use this clamp but when I moved I never reinstalled the clamp portion)

They are easy to make assuming you have the tools/parts, but I assume at the right price point perhaps people would buy it.  Sure it's unsightly but if stability is key this thing is a boss(it actually gets more accurate as the level in the ATO goes down as it takes less to equalize the pressure)! The 32oz I use in the first picture lasts 5-6 days on my 4g with a glass lid and in 2 years of straight operation zero failures yet.  if you need the parts or want a completed one or have questions on how to do a certain part let me know

[DarkMagic]

1 hour ago, GraniteReefer said:

if you need the parts or want a completed one or have questions on how to do a certain part let me know

This looks amazing, if I hadn't already purchased the bulkhead, RO tubing, and a valve, I'd definitely just buy this from you... I do have a ton of questions though if you have a minute.

 

1. I'm assuming water siphons down the 3/8" tube, and the 1/4" tube is for letting air into the bottle, correct? If so, how are you starting the siphon each time you refill?

2. Is there a reason to have one tube on top and another on the bottom, rather than having them both on the bottom? It seems like the syphon might not be necessary.

3. Would this design not work just as well if you flipped the whole thing upside down and sealed the 1/4" line? Just the 3/8" tube should allow air up and water down. 

[MainelyReefer]

You have it totally backwards! The 3/8" tube sits at water level and is larger diameter to allow water to backflow easier once the tanks water level drops below the tube.  At this point air is allowed to enter the top of the unit via the 3/8" tube and water flows out of the 1/4" tube via gravity.  Having a smaller drain than the intake helps in not just sucking the water up the intake and into the reservoir.  The 3/8" tube fills with tank water respective to the depth of water in the ATO.  I call this a vacuum regulated gravity driven ATO.  I was going to shorten it the the VRATO or something like that. Perhaps I'll try to make a video to enlighten you on its operation.  

[MainelyReefer]

Also look up sun tea jar ATO on nanoreef for other inspiration, it was what gave me the design in 2016 I just made it look "prettier" and slightly more user friendly and operational with a valve to slow the 1/4" tubing/ way to fasten it to the wall.

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/65554-sun-tea-jar-auto-top-off/

[DarkMagic]

On 3/12/2018 at 6:34 PM, GraniteReefer said:

You have it totally backwards!

Oh damn, glad I asked! I was actually imagining something a little more like what this guy did: 

 

 

This might sound weird, but if you have any spare RO tubing laying around, I'd be super curious to know what happens if you flip the whole thing upside down, close the ball valve so the container's airtight, and shorten the length of the 3/8" tubing to the water level. Maybe not worth your time, but might simplify the design and reduce the risk of an air leak breaking the vacuum. Thoughts?

 

 

[MainelyReefer]

Never had an air leak break vacuum(a lot of these DIY threads were written a long time ago so the hardware is inferior) but I did experiment a lot when I first designed my ATO and I found using one tube allowed for more error.  I just ran over and did exactly as you describe and unless perfectly angled the air has a chance at not going back up the 3/8" tubing.  Try both designs I'm sure you'll find like I did the design I showed is the one to trust with an animals life.

[DarkMagic]

9 hours ago, GraniteReefer said:

unless perfectly angled the air has a chance at not going back up the 3/8" tubing

That's interesting, didn't realize that was a risk. I see know how if there's an angle to a horizontal part of the tube it could trap air and block water flow down, kind of like the reverse of a sink drain. Seems like there's no way to do this without drilling at least two holes. ?

[Stoops718]

On 3/12/2018 at 4:27 PM, GraniteReefer said:

No issue on the bulkhead seal(I actually drill and tap the bottom and screw in a threaded JG BV, I have even made one using their square type containers but the structure of the round ones was stronger and I have a click clamp which can be fastened to the wall to hold the round bottles.  I currently use it without the wall clamp as I have an AIO that allows the bottle to sit on the back/false wall for support.  Picture of the first model on the Poopico that's been in use since early 2016 made from my brothers super old nalgene.  

And here is a picture of a model I built that is 48oz, it has a clamp attached(used to use this clamp but when I moved I never reinstalled the clamp portion)

They are easy to make assuming you have the tools/parts, but I assume at the right price point perhaps people would buy it.  Sure it's unsightly but if stability is key this thing is a boss(it actually gets more accurate as the level in the ATO goes down as it takes less to equalize the pressure)! The 32oz I use in the first picture lasts 5-6 days on my 4g with a glass lid and in 2 years of straight operation zero failures yet.  if you need the parts or want a completed one or have questions on how to do a certain part let me know

Awesome DIY! Can you give me the parts list?