Algae ID help needed - BGA/Cyano - progress

[jbh]

So, bringing this one back.

 

To keep it simple, my tank is now bare bottom and I'm running a small amount of gfo to bring my phosphate levels down.

 

It has been running like this for 3 weeks now, and I am still having issues with this algae or cyanobacteria.

 

I lost a birds nest frag, and everything was closed up and pissed for the past couple of weeks.

 

Below is a picture of the algae / cyanobacteria that has taken over my chaeto. Gives a very clear view of it. It has no structure, falls apart when you go after it, is greenish brown, and prefers to grow on the corals themselves, in their immediate vicinity, or on the chaeto.

 

At this point, I'm just looking for a positive id of this so I can treat properly.

 

Water parameters areally all the same as previous, but with progress made on the phosphate front. I'm down to the 0.1 to 0.25 ppm range.

 

Any help is much appreciated.

 

[ajmckay]

Looks/acts like BGA/cyano to me...  Or at least something related.

 

So you've removed the sand - and added some GFO?  Sound like that should go a long ways toward reducing nutrients in the tank. 

 

Maybe it's too obvious a question but how's your flow?  I find it grows where the flow is low and where there's plenty of light.  Sound like your stuff?

 

nutrient reduction is the long term solution, but at least when I've had issues with blue green algae I needed something to at least ease the initial infestation.  Cleaning the tank thoroughly is a good idea and you'll probably have to do it regularly for a while.  If you make a serious effort and still don't feel like it's getting you where you want then try some chemiclean/red slime remover.  Might do the trick.  It's definitely not guaranteed since it won't work on all types but it's worth a try after the manual efforts have been attempted.

 

Good luck hope you get this under control.  Looks like it's becoming a mess.

 

 

 

  

[jbh]

After more reading following my post, that's kinda where I landed. It does prefer low flow. And recedes wit lights out treatment.

 

It does improve after a deep clean and a big water change.

 

Plan moving forward is to deep clean 2 or 3 days in a row with a 50% min water change, lights out, and then to get rid of the rest of it with chemiclean.

 

I'll update here with results.

 

 

[jbh]

Dosed chemiclean 4 hours ago, and after 48hrs lights out, a deep clean, and 50% water change, everything looks really happy. PE is the best it has been in 2 months.

 

Going to do a second dose in 48 hours (after a water change) to be sure all cyano is gone.

 

Hopefully this does the trick.

[jbh]

So I am now 5 days post chemiclean treatment with a resurgence of my bluegreen cyano issue.

 

Prior to and during the treatment, I was lights out, and did a major cleaning, including paring down my chaeto to smaller than a golf ball (since the cyano had covered it)

 

Water parameters

 

Temp 78 f

Salinity 34ppt

Nitrate 5 ppm

Phosphates 0.03 ppm

Ammonia 0ppm

 

So at this stage, the only nutrient export I have is water changes. The cyano starts to grow on the chaeto when the fuge is lit, and is the lowest flow area of the tank, and good breeding ground for it.

 

I'm doing a 50% water change tonight, and going lights out for 3 days. With 50% water changes each day. Going to include a deep clean tonight, and twice a week. Hopefully I can get ahead of this.

 

I'm looking for some additional guidance on this. I'm concerned that I am battling something other than cyano.

 

Things to note about this issue

-  it recedes when lights are out

- during chemiclean treatment, everything looked better

- grows on chaeto

- tends to grow on and around my zoas first

- stringy and hair-like in appearance, but disintegrate when disturbed

- currently bare bottom

- current inhabitants 1 clown (good size), 1 small goby, 1 cleaner shrimp, 1 med turbo snails, 4 nassarius, and a bunch of other smaller snails (reef cleaners nano package)

- would grow a Web like coating on the sand, when it was in there

- can't remember exactly when it appeared. After buying a couple frags from a local reefer, after getting rid of my one murderous hermit crab, after getting my brs Rodi system (reading 0 tds at outlet), and using red Sea blue bucket.

 

I can't think of any other pertinent info on the cause.

 

 

[ajmckay]

Bummer the chemiclean didn't really work...   As stated though it's not guaranteed it will.  As for the tests - I wouldn't believe them currently.  It's obvious you have some nutrient issues.

 

Soooo...  What you have really does sound like BGA/Cyano though.   Do you have access to a microscope?  If so check it out - doesn't have to be a high quality one, 200x would do.  It will look like a pile of squiggly sticks.  That would be your confirmation.

 

Things I would definitely do:

- Get a turkey baster and put a zip tie around the end of the bulb to hold it on better.  A few times per day squirt the rocks and sand and stir everything up

- If you have any mechanical filtration clean it daily and if you don't then consider getting something

- Don't bother with the fuge light

- Really brush the rocks down and spray some peroxide on it (being careful of corals)

- If you have controllable lights take the white channel down and bump the blues.  If you're using fluorescent change the bulbs if they're over 8-10 months old

- Increase the flow in a noticeable way. This likely means adding another pump and maybe even upgrading your current pump.  Or it could just mean re-adjusting what you have if you're confident that there's enough flow

- Re-evaluate your feeding plan.  Personally I would not stop feeding because that impacts the inhabitants.  But I would do things like check the phosphate content of my foods.  If using frozen then strain out the random stuff.  Feed directly - small amounts 2x per day and make sure it all gets eaten.  I assume you're the only one feeding the tank?  Kids are notorious for wanting to "feed the fishies" :/

- If you're dosing anything I would cease temporarily

- Assuming your system fared well with the chemiclean you can continue that, per the instructions.  Maybe email the company and ask for suggestions?  They might be able to send you some modified dosing?

 

Things I would look into:

- You need something to out-compete the BGA...   Chaeto isn't going to do it.  I'm not saying go get a bunch of macro, corals will help, as will reducing the introduction of additional nutrients.

- You could try reading up on peroxide dosing or carbon dosing.  You're probably not at that point yet IMO but it's interesting none the less.

 

Good luck - hopefully this gives you some ideas.

[brandon429]

Nice input

 

Here are some variables challenging this tank: mixing of options vs running the sand rinse thread in totality. our system is exclusive to other tuning options... any form of option that leaves the invader in place or takes partial action on the system is the source of continued headache. this is still a relevant link for the sand rinse thread to chart skip cycle work, and outcomes from customizing the procedure.

 

This thread has the rarity of another rip cleaning mixed in where outcomes can be compared and contrasted if interested.

 

A large portion of our sand rinse thread is dissecting the psychology that makes keepers literally keep their invaders in a system, it usually comes down to fearing instability from being thorough, but our thread doesn't show any problems in being deliberate on the first go.

[jbh]

First off, @ajmckay, and @brandon429, thank you for taking the time to respond so in-depth.

 

RE: ajmckay

Things I would definitely do:

- Get a turkey baster and put a zip tie around the end of the bulb to hold it on better.  A few times per day squirt the rocks and sand and stir everything up

  - I blasted everything last evening with my water change. Will do this a few times a day as well as right before waterchanges.

- If you have any mechanical filtration clean it daily and if you don't then consider getting something

  - Curently, no mechanical filtration. I moved the rock, coral, and inhabitants to a 10g breeder, odified as an AIO. I will be adding a filter floss tray later this week when I have some time/materials

- Don't bother with the fuge light

  - chucked the little bit of chaeto left, and turned off fuge light.

- Really brush the rocks down and spray some peroxide on it (being careful of corals)

  - 80% of corals have been removed from rocks and are on frag plugs in a frag holder. Will read up on peroxide treatment of rocks, and treat rocks, one a day presumably to preserve my good bacteria.

- If you have controllable lights take the white channel down and bump the blues.  If you're using fluorescent change the bulbs if they're over 8-10 months old

  - I have an AI Prime, Ill drop the whites and reduce the red and green a bit. I'm going to keep with my lights out for 2 more days to get a head start on the BGA/cyano.

- Increase the flow in a noticeable way. This likely means adding another pump and maybe even upgrading your current pump.  Or it could just mean re-adjusting what you have if you're confident that there's enough flow

  - I currently am running a spare retuen pump in this that is not very powerful. Also running a powerhead. Detritus collects on the bottom glass, mainly under the rocks. Makes it easy to vacuume up with a little shuffling of the rocks.

- Re-evaluate your feeding plan.  Personally I would not stop feeding because that impacts the inhabitants.  But I would do things like check the phosphate content of my foods.  If using frozen then strain out the random stuff.  Feed directly - small amounts 2x per day and make sure it all gets eaten.  I assume you're the only one feeding the tank?  Kids are notorious for wanting to "feed the fishies" :/

  - Currently feed 1x a day in the evenings. 2 days pellets, then 1 day either frozen misis or brine, target fed with turkey baster. The clown eats a ton. It takes at least 10 pellets for him to start letting them get down to where the goby can get them. Might be wise to target feed the goby with pellets + baster, and not let the clown gorge himself every night.

- If you're dosing anything I would cease temporarily

  - Not dosing anything. Never have. I run the good BRS carbon, and am running a little bid of GFO because my phosphates were up at 0.5ppm. Might be wise to remove the GFO at this point, since phosphates are down to 0.03ppm, as of yesterday.

- Assuming your system fared well with the chemiclean you can continue that, per the instructions.  Maybe email the company and ask for suggestions?  They might be able to send you some modified dosing?

  - I think I would like to get nutrients under control, and address the underlying cause of the BGA. Maybe once things are starting to look better, I'll dose one last chemiclean to try to get rid of anything that might be left in the water column.

 

Things I would look into:

- You need something to out-compete the BGA...   Chaeto isn't going to do it.  I'm not saying go get a bunch of macro, corals will help, as will reducing the introduction of additional nutrients.

  - I have a handful of zoa frags, a 2 head frogspawn, 3 head duncan, favia, and a couple of mushrooms. At this stage, I don't think I'm going to add any more coral to this system, since it it struggling.

- You could try reading up on peroxide dosing or carbon dosing.  You're probably not at that point yet IMO but it's interesting none the less.

  - I'll read up on it. Will probably start with peroxide treatment of rocks first, individually.

 

 

RE: brandon429

 

- Rocks were cleaned and rinsed with fresh saltwater during "rip clean" and again when transfering everything to the 10 gal breeder. 

- I'm going to look into diversifying and better targeting my feedings. Since pellets are so nutrient dense, they are definitly the main source of my nutrient problem.

- I ran GFO because phosphate was still high after transfer to 10 gal breeder, that included an 80% water change. Didn't have a phosphate test kit before, so never ran GFO before 3 weeks ago.

- I think a well regimented, diverse, and consistent approach will work best here. I intend to use both your and ajmckay's input.

 

 

Going to do some reading on peroxide treatment. Also going to move remaining corals to frag plugs and get them on a rack. This should make it easy to treat rocks.

 

 

[ajmckay]

jbh - sounds like you have thought things out pretty well.  Honestly my post was more of a "hit all the bases" type approach. 

 

Coincidentally I'm doing a pretty major cleaning today.  My tank was suffering from some major neglect and the GHA and bubble algae was piling on pretty damn quick.  I run a ULNS (Ultra lazy nutrientrich system) lol so I inherently deal with a little bit of algae every few months. I go big with the skimming and that certainly helps.  Every once in a while though things get out of hand and I end up doing a rock scrub with peroxide.  Basically I load up a water bottle with peroxide.  I take the rocks to the sink and scrub them with my cheap IKEA scrub brush.  Spray down with peroxide and wait a few minutes.  Rinse.  To save on salt I just use tap water.  Yes it probably wipes out some of the surface bacteria but so does scrubbing so I rely on the fact that the bulk of the bacteria are nestled away in all the little holes and cracks where a quick rinse won't really reach them. 

 

I also removed all the sand and spent like 30 minutes running water through it so it's super clean.  I haven't done that in like 2 years...  I'm also changing all my water out.  I have a sumped 40br so I stuck all the fish and coral in the sump and I'm currently waiting on my last 10g of water to come out of the RO filter lol...  Lots of bucket hauling. 

 

Doing this type of cleaning results in a pretty drastic change...  But honestly it doesn't take that long even though the amount of effort is fairly high.  I sort of wish I would have thought about taking a before pic so I could show the results...  

[jbh]

No one wants to take a picture of their ugly tank just for fun... I certainly don't.

 

Thanks for all the input. Learning in this hobby has been a process, but I am definitely getting more of a handle on things.

 

I just checked my lighting, and I was running quite a bit of whites. I dropped them down a bit for when I turn the lights back on. I'm hoping that attacking from all angles will give me the best chance for success.

[ajmckay]

Damn, you responded too quick.  I was going to add this to my prior post:

 

It may not look like the peroxide does much at first - but surely the algae turns brown and dissolves away in a few days.  Note that this is particularly useful against GHA/turf/bubble, etc types of algae since they hold fast to rocks - but I've used it on a mix of BGA and GHA and it appeared to be effective against both... Still I would do some additional research to make sure you feel comfortable with it.

[brandon429]

Ajm 

 

that post above is so well detailed that’s heckuva plan and execution.

 

id also add that to completely clean a nano correctly from top to bottom at once, invader free, and -then- set up N and P measuring and tuning, -then- add competing organisms, then buy awesome stuff from Algen online, might be the long spiral pass of the decade for the truly problematic tanks like dinos or persistent cyano.... not a mixing of approaches, but an ordering of approaches is shown ideal in the sand rinse thread.

 

 

[jbh]

Put the remaining corals on frag plugs, and onto their new rack. Did another 50% wc. Still lights out. Removed one live rock (I had close to 20lbs in a 10 gal). Going to monitor ammonia and feed lightly to make sure the remaining bacteria can handle it.

 

I was amazed at the amount of detritus that collected after 24 hours. Maybe some of it was a result of blasting the rocks. However, I think that my cleanup crew is too robust for my tank, and are contributing to the detritus, nutrients, and potentially masked my nutrient problem by keeping the display super clean, in spite of the high nutrients.

 

Either way, I'm going to drop a few off at the lfs, with the bga/cyano disclaimer to see if they still want them. 

 

Lights come on tomorrow. Going to allow a 7 day acclimation period, 50% --> previous lighting levels.

 

Going to do some peroxide rock dips once I feel the good bacteria can handle it.

 

Will keep this updated on progress. 

[jbh]

Update:

 

Lights are back on. Acclimating from 60% to previous over 5 days.

 

Feeding every other day and target feeding goby. Doing brine once a week.

 

20% water changes every other day, vacuuming up detritus off bottom.

 

Dosing peroxide every 36 hours. Plan to do 5 doses, finishing up after rocks have been dipped.

 

No ammonia spike yet, going to peroxide dip rocks, one each day.

 

Corals are not pissed, but not stoked. Better polyp extension towards the end of the 36hr peroxide dose cycle.

 

Haven't seen the cyano yet. Still need to reduce my cuc size.

 

Currently hopeful, but optemistic.

[jbh]

Lost my cleaner shrimp yesterday morning. Not sure why. I have had a lot of changes in the tank in the past couple of weeks. He was the only one I was not target feeding, because he usually steals or scavenges food just fine.

 

I just did my peroxide dip of my first rock. Seems to have gone well. Stopped dosing, since the rock will bring a bit of peroxide in with it.

 

So now the good news. I haven't seen the cyano back yet. Finally starting to grow some film algae again on the glass and frag plugs. I had not cleaned my glass for 6 weeks. I assume that the cyano was stripping the nutrients from the water, preventing some of the more tolerable algae from growing.

 

Corals have been looking great. Got rid of a few snails. Still a little heavy on the cuc.

 

I tested the water after the shrimp died, and had a small amount of nitrite (0.1 -0.2). Maybe I had a small ammonia spike that I didn't catch, and that did him in? Clown was also acting funny that morning, but ate well. Goby too. And it is business as usual the past day.

 

So, in 48hrs , I have another rock to dip. And after another 48hrs, I'll do a final peroxide dose, and then will slowly add more time between water changes. I plan to check ammonia daily.

 

Hopefully I have this beat after all this work.

[ajmckay]

What diligence!   Seriously nice job with keeping on it.  I'm pretty confident that you'll be much better off going forward with the changes you've made.

 

Bummer on the shrimp tho...  Are you doing a quick rinse of the peroxide after you dip?   The peroxide decomposes into oxygen and water pretty quick from what I recall - but it's still a good idea to rinse.  I'm not sure how tolerant inverts are. I haven't had a problem in the past anyways...

 

I guess my only advice at this point would be not to make any changes that are too drastic.  You need to find the point where your tank is happy.