Planning stage - Whats you ideal bio filter?

[sniggib]

Hi all,

 

So, I am starting to plan an upgrade after a tank crash.

 

I am aiming to go for a solely biological filter for two reasons;

 

1. I like the idea of a biological filtration system, its stability  and lack of plug in equipment

2. I want to keep various invertebrates which are in themselves interesting but also filter my water.

 

My overall aim is to have a small display full of higher end colourful SPS with a large biological filtration system providing ample filtration but also an interesting environment all of its own. I am looking at adding things like mangroves, various macro-algae, feather duster worms, clams / mussels and other filter feeders? etc. etc.

 

I am more than happy to feed the 'filter' as I suspect the display will not be sufficient to keep it thriving.

 

Limitations for the filtration are: It must fit on a table 1.6m x 0.60m. The tank (or tanks) are yet to be decided upon / designed.

 

So, in a biological filter system what would you love to have?

 

This can be for;

1. Filtration capacity

2. Great for a refugium type environment

3. Interesting

 

Go!

 

Matt

(Thanks in advance)

 

[Subsea]

Matt,

 

Welcome to NR.  THIS IS YOUR FIRST POST IN NINE YEARS.  

 

Aside from telling us you want to support a tankful of SPS with solely a biological filter of a specific footprint, I know nothing about your experience level.  I have been doing captive marine tanks for 45 years.  If I started by telling you that macro algae produces DOC and that cryptic sponges consume DOC and produce DIC & “Marine Snow”, it may not mean anything to you.  So, tell me something about your experience level to start with SPS.

[sniggib]

Hi Subsea,

 

Yes, your right, I have been lurking here but not posting, I should give you more background.

 

So;

 

I am based in the UK. I started marine keeping approx. 15 years ago, as a teenager. Generally keeping nano tanks (this will be my fourth tank) with varying success going from soft corals to LPS then to SPS.

 

My most recent tank was an aquanano 55l tank dominated by SPS (montipora, stylophora, a few acros and millipora. This tank ran on live rock along with two small reactors running phosphate media and carbon. It crashed as I took some bad advice trying to get rid of some algae, lesson learnt.

 

I want to go the biological route as my last tank seemed to be almost in balance which is what I would alike to do but by biological methods rather than relying solely on live rock,. water changes and chemical filtration which from experience doesn't ever seem to achieve true equilibrium. Plus I love the idea of having an interesting filtration which is as interesting as the display.

 

Pics attached of my last tank which I was absolutely gutted when it crashed.

 

Overall Id say I have a moderate understanding of marine keeping, but not too much on the biological side, hence why I would like to learn more aboutr nutrient control via biological / natural methods.

 

 

 

[Subsea]

Great.

 

I will be happy to exchange ideas.  Before going any further, I would like to quote Eric Boreneman, “If someone tells you that their way is the only way to run a reef tank, run away from them”.

 

I can not advise you on how to support an SPS tank specifically.  In 45 years, I have never had a desire to grow SPS.  I can help you design a biologically balanced system with uses nutrient recycling thru complex food webs with redundancy backup systems as discribed as “Dynamic Equilibrium”.

 

Oceaneering 101

 

1.  Nitrogen pump for planet earth happens when nitrogen as an inert gas is turned into an inorganic nutrient by cynobacteria to fertilize the reef.  The process is called “nitrogen fixation” and without it, Earth would be a waste land.

 

2.  Carbon pump for planet earth happens when carbon dioxide in atmosphere dissolves in water to form carbonate and bicarbonate, which establishes alkalinity as a buffer to resist pH change.  This coupled with photosynthesis produces glucose which is a carbon source for the ocean.

 

An important example of “Dynamic Equilibrium” occurs during lights out.  During photosynthesis, carbon dioxide is consumed and oxygen is produced.  When lights go out, carbon dioxide is produced which form a weak acid, carbonic acid.  When pH drops at night, the aroggonite in the sand bed begins to dissolve at 8.05 pH.  This contributes to alkalinity by adding calcium and trace minerals automatically.  In my 120G new build, I run a reverse flow under gravel filter with 3” of aroggonite.

 

What I have discribed is somewhat basic and it gets much deeper.  Are you interested in pursuing this?  Randy Holmes Farley said it this way to me, “We put a man on the moon 50 years ago, yet we can’t cure cancer.  Biochemistry is complicated.

 

First picture is 25 year old 75G Jaubert Plenum with a 30G EcoSystem mud macro refugium converted to cryptic sponge refugium three months ago.

 

Second picture is 120G new build with 40G cryptic sponge refugium.  Tank is 3 weeks old.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Subsea]

Lights on for 30 minutes

[sniggib]

Sounds good, yes essentially I want to achieve an equilibrium between the sump and display tank.

 

Cheers,

[Subsea]

Your tank looks larger than 55 liters?  Did I misunderstand aquanano 55l?

 

In general, a fully stocked reef tank is your best biological filter.  Ken Felderman has many peer reviewed articles at Advanced Aquaria.  His data showed the effectiveness of  protein skimmers, GAC and a mature biologica filter.  Effectiveness percentages were based on percentages of DOC, dissolved organic carbon, that were removed.

 

Protein skimming removed 35%, at best, of DOC.

GAC removed 65% of DOC

MATURE BIOLOGICAL FILTER CONSUMED 75% of DOC.

 

Matt,

Any mature remote display refugium would do what you need.  Before going any further, understand this, coral needs phosphate and nitrates in the same way as macro.  Use aroggonite substrate with a reverse flow under gravel filter.  This will set up Dynamic Equilibrium of pH with alkalinity buffering and trace mineral addition.  Use CaribSea Special Reef Grade aroggonite 1-2mm.  This will support a diversity of sand bed critters.  Get janitors that multiply.  This will feed your reef, larvae from sand bed critter spawns.   Seed the tank with amphipods and copepods.  As a rule, amphipods are herbivores and copepods are detrivores,  use macro  and cryptic sponges to balance out your biological filter.  Cryptic sponges need be grown in the dark.

 

two red decorative macro are

https://www.marineplantbook.com/marinebookbotryo.htm

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/3551/dragons-tongue-algae?pcatid=3551&c=497+3752+3551

 

minimize fish in this display refugium

 

i

 

 

 

 

[sniggib]

Thanks,0

 

So from doing some reading on deep sand beds in the references from this post;

 

I understand there are two schools of thought with regards to DSB's. The first being to keep it as a basic bed of sand, the second to add in a space underneath to allow oxygen levels to remain above 0% and hence not produce hydrogen sulphide, the second Jaubert method with plenum also seems to indicate a much larger grain size, approaching fine gravel which contradicts the other just sand method.

 

I am I unsure which would be better.

 

I have also read conflicting articles of whether large sand sifters i.e. shrimp and gobies should be used to move sand, obviously this will destroy any anoxic zones, but equally I would have thought their gradual stirring of the sand is likely to allow oxygen levels to remain within the correct range to prevent hydrogen sulphide production.

 

All the articles I have been reading are typically a good 5 years or so old. Is this just because I am reading old posts or is because I am reading about outdated methodologies?

 

My current thinking would be to have a DSB which incorporates no space underneath, but utilises both small (bacteria, worms) and larger (shrimp, snails, gobies) sand sifters to gradually turn over the sand bed, yes this would reduce the anoxic and hence denitrifying areas, but surely would not deplete these areas sufficiently to stall the process completely, but would prevent formation of hydrogen sulphide and allow areas of anoxic DSB to regenerate. Following the DSB area I would then have a ;it macro algae area to assist in removing the nitrate which is note removed via the anoxic DSB, and also to deal with Phosphates. My concern with the DSB is that by removing solely nitrates the phosphate / nitrate balance would be insufficient to aloe successful cultivation of macro algae.

 

 

Separate to the DSB component I was hoping to identify a range of interesting fauna, particularly filter feeders which would create a biological system to filter out larger particles.

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

[sniggib]

Apologies, that's my other tank, this one is approx. 100L

[Subsea]

yes to diverse sand bed fauna and fana of all kinds.   Grain size is most important according to Dr Ron, if you want diverse worm populations.   CaribSea “Special Reef Grade”  aroggonite has worked well for me, .1mm to 1mm.  I use uncured diver collected rock to seed tanks with diversity.

 

The theory behind Jaubert Plenum was to use a 4” to 6” depth bed of coarse aroggonite at 2mm-5mm.  As water went deeper into bed both pH and oxygen are dropping.  With a coarse gravel the oxygen gradient is extended over a deeper depth resulting in larger volume of facultative conditions of low oxygen.  The low oxygen conditions facilitate facultative bacteria that operate both  in aerobic and in low oxygen areas.  In these low oxygen areas, the bacteria that require oxygen capture the oxygen molecule of nitrate with a resulting gas which is exported at surface.  So Jaubert Plenum does not favor micro fauna and fana because of sand bed coarseness.  

 

The DSB described by Dr Ron favors worms and such because of substrate size.  While oolite sand might be better for the worms it blows away in the current.

 

Personally, I don’t subscribe to dsb.   I see no reason to encourage denitrification as nutrient export.  I prefer nitrate grow things.  For everything to grow, nutrients are required in this ratio:  106 parts carbon, 16 parts nitrate and 1 part phosphate.

 

I started a 120G new build about 3 weeks ago.  I copied PaulB, who used a reverse flow undergravel filter with 3” of aroggonite sand-bed For 45 Years.    Upward flow prevents gravity from  drawing down detritus into sandbed.  No anaerobic spots.  When lights out and pH drops, aroggonite sandbed bed begins to dissolve at a pH of 8.05.

 

Sponges should do what you want.  Anthony Calfo and Bod Fenner wrote Reef Invertebrae with a Chapter dedicated to sponges.  With more than 8000, there needs are diverse.  In my first post on your thread, I referred to cryptic sponges.  If you want to know more about sponges, Steve Tyree has several books on sponges.

 

I get these for ornamental value and they do well in my mixed garden.

https://www.live-plants.com/yellowball.htm

https://www.live-plants.com/redfingersponge.htm

 

[sniggib]

Thanks,

 

So essentially your sandbed system provides the section of the nitrogen cycle turning waste from ammonia and nitrite to nitrate, this is then taken up by the macroalgae.

 

Following this, I am thinking that my sump may benefit from being laid out as a staged process; i.e. mechanical pre-filter? or a biological pre-filter using sponges, fanworms etc., sandbed including small and larger invertebrates and 'sifters' to breakdown ammonia and nitrite (being an aerobic sandbed), then a macroalgae section to utilise the nitrate and phosphate.

 

I shall have a look into the use of sponges. Do you have any online links, although I may well order a few books.

 

Thanks,

 

 

[Subsea]

You should look up Steve Tyree / three stage zonal filtration /Cryptic Sponge filtration and cryptic sponge zonal filtration.    I bought his ebooks on line for very little.

 

Twenty years ago, I read “Reef Invertebrates” by Anthony Calfo & Robert Fenner with a 80 page chapter dedicated to sponges. There are more than 8000 species of sponges, each with diverse eating habits and there are some absolutely gorgeous sponges.

 

 

[OPtasia]

Subsea,

 

This is an interesting setup to me with the reverse flow undergravel filters. I'd attempted something similar a long time ago in a 20 long freshwater setup. My biggest problem were the undergravel plates weren't as form fitting as i'd have liked to fit flush with the edges of my tank. I had definite gaps, say 1/4" to 1/3" along the edges between the undergravel filter plates and the edges of the tank glass. It created dead spots that still required regular gravel vac maintenance. 

 

Is there anything you did in your recent setup to ensure no gaps like that exist? Mesh or something over the plates themselves?

[Subsea]

OPtasia,

I used nylon/fiberglass window screen material to cover egg crate on top and edges.  However, I did not want to see it, so I covered edges with sand.  Differrent color corallines grew and there were little trails where worms traveled about.  I found it interesting.  On my 6” deep 25 year old  Jaubert Plenum there was even h2s trails which I also found interesting as there seemed to be no adverse effects.

 

 

[sniggib]

Thanks all.

 

What through flow would be good for a biological sump setup?

 

Thanks

 

[sniggib]

I have come up with this for a sump idea.

 

Input appreciated. The additional refugium is really just to add more space at some point so I could have mangroves etc, or alternatively a cryptic songe area which I am currently reading about.

 

Also, do you have any links to the undergravel filter idea?

 

Thanks

 

 

[sniggib]

I'm also just reading up on miracle mud / mud based filtration.

 

Amy thoughts on use of this rather than a sand bed?

 

Thanks

[Subsea]

Technically, mud & sand perform similar functions.  I have been told that miracle mud is high in iron. I bought the set up used.  Over the 25 year period, the mud depth has increased about 1/2” and feels spongy to the touch.  It is crawling with worms and pods and mini starfish.

 

I have had a 30G EcoSystem three stage mud macro refugium set up for 25 years along with a 75G Jaubert Plenum display.  

 

I would use mud instead of sand for more diversity in worms.  Sand with reverse flow would accomplish more with  nitrification bacteria if your fish load is high.

 

Also, I would drop the use of the filter sock.  It removes food for micro fauna and fana.

[Subsea]

Further thoughts on grain size.  Mud has grain size just as boulders have grain size.

 

For your first compartment, after removing the  flter sock, place rock rubble in water to break up detritus and to promote good gas exchange.  Consider rubble above water line, depending on flow rate, this could splash.

 

 Grain size determines micro habitat.  Differrent fauna & fana live in differrent grain size habitats.  Different filter feeders, including coral, have differrent size food requirements.  Use differrent substrate grain size for differrent sand bed janitors.  

 

Diverse larvae size feeds diverse filter feeders.