Jump to content

Someone Please help ME!


sivinhliu

Recommended Posts

Hello all. I had just bought everything i needed to set up my new marine tank. Foolishly I hadn't remember a few things.

 

I had poured in RO water into my tank and immediately placed my quality live rock into the water. I hadn't realised I had to add my salt and increase the temperature first. After 1.5 hrs I had remembered and immediately removed my rocks from the tank and placed them in the original foam container. The temperature of the tank at the time was roughly around 19 degrees celcius.

 

Does it mean that my rock is totally dead now? The ph of the tank was at normal level. I couldn't save my live sand. So I guessed there doomed!!!!

 

Please could anyone point me to the right direction in reviving my rocks if they are dying. Right now I am heating my tank up to 28 degrees celcius and adding my salt.

 

Thanks!

Link to comment

you have to get your rock into salt water RIGHT now. by taking the rock out of FW and putting it in NO water at all you have allowed the FW more time to do damage! basically the FW dip is still going on!

 

you did serious damage to its inhabitants. more than likely you killed everything. an hour and a half is a long time. too late now.

 

temp for live rock is not as important as the fresh water. you are looking at a long and hard cycle.

 

its funny to me how some are so concerned about tangs and mandarins in nanos, yet wont care about this. biologically speaking, there is no difference. to me, fresh water dipping is FAR worse than the wrong fish in a tank.

 

 

 

nalbar

Link to comment

that is very tragic.... but as they say, $h!t happens... now all you can do is try to fix the problem. i would suggest that once you have your water up to par(s/g & ph), that you should then buy some more quality live rock. since you possibly killed whatever life was on your rocks, they can be seeded with new live rock. but like nalbar said, this problem will probably take a long time to fix. just be patient and wait out the long cycle. and don't worry too much about your live sand, if the new rock seeds the dead rock, it will also seed your sandbed full of life. good luck. keep us posted on your progress.

Link to comment

nothin wrong with mandarins in nanos :-p

 

but yea...the osmotic shock of the inhabitants would definitely prove fatal. After a minute they were probably all dead.

 

But before we jump the gun....who's to say that the bacteria (which is almost useless without the inhabs) died in this event? I'm not completely sure.....ideas anyone?

Link to comment

I have always bought my LR from LFS and when I take it home it goes in a bag, with NO water at all. Is that also dangerous for the rock's?

Link to comment

Yeah my LFS does the same thing, bag with no water. I just get it in the tank asap, it was half-dried when I got home, stupid high temps here. I am going to seed the tank with some better stuff soon, mine looks like baserock. Least it's less likely to harber nasties anyway.

Link to comment

Thanks for the info guys. Now I am truely heart broken...... :(

 

So I have now 12 kg of *dead* liverock. How much rock would i need in order to reseed them? How long would it take? Is there anyway to speed up the rate of seeding and would it fully recover?

 

Now I am going to ram my head into the wall for doing so much damage to my wallet. I scraped my alloys wheels today as well so I guess today is Friday 13th for me. Truely unlucky day......

 

Anything else I should look out for?

 

Thanks guys!!!!

Mike

Link to comment

I don;t think that your LR would be dead. Sure all of the pods will be dead, but the bacteria should be fine. Bacteria can survive in vocano vents or frozen in ice for thousands of years. I think it can survive a little mistake.

 

To reseed the rock, you would only need a single small piece of LR rubble. Or you could add a cup of Live sand from a friends tank.

 

I wouldn't worry.

Link to comment

do not attempt to 'speed up' the process. you have to show patience now. even after the cure you are going to have limited filtering capacity because you will have a limited population of beneficial bacteria. go slow even when you start to stock.

 

here is what your real problem is;

 

live rock has beneficial bacteria which filter water through the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycle. when you lose them it is not all that big of a deal (if you are patient) because these populations can build back up. everyone talks about that aspect of live rock. but what allows those bacteria to work are small animals (mainly worms of various types) that 'pump' the water in and out of the rock. these die INSTANTLY when exposed to fresh water. and diversity of this population is EXTREMELY important. these worms, with all their diversity, are difficult to 'reseed' back to 'natural' populations once lost.

 

also, what is amazing about LR is the OTHER animals that come on it. small brittle stars, and surprisingly creepy things that i cannot begin to describe. things that shoot out long spider web like things to snare food, slug like animals with mouths like octopi, i even got a small sea cucumber. these animals, in their countless combinations, are unique to any particular pile of rock. all those are dead and gone in your tank. and there is no way to seed them back. sorry.

 

btw, this is why garf diy rock is crap and a scam. you NEVER get these animals without DIVERSE live rock. they cannot be seeded.

 

IMHO the greatest joy of looking in a reef tank is finding these animals. my wife and i spend hours with a magnifying glass watching them. its like looking through a porthole to another planet.

 

 

nalbar

Link to comment

sometimes, when you buy frags, you'll notice you'll get some of the things nalbar has talked about in his comment above. some of those things come as hitchhikers on various corals that are attached to rock...in time things will eventually return to normal...

 

good luck, i hope things turn out ok in the long run :)

Link to comment

Yeah I just noticed that my LR had some hitch hickers. I believe they are either polyps or zoo's, well at least that's what I was told.

Link to comment
I don;t think that your LR would be dead. Sure all of the pods will be dead, but the bacteria should be fine. Bacteria can survive in vocano vents or frozen in ice for thousands of years. I think it can survive a little mistake.

 

This is akin to saying "Animals (fish, for instance) can survive for years underwater without ever needing to come up for air. So other animals like humans or dogs or cats ought to be able to put up with being underwater for a few hours without any ill effects."

 

Some bacteria have evolved to be able to stand up to extreme conditions. Many have not.

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news....

 

--B

Link to comment

Hey you guys. Must be a miracle or something.

 

This morning when i checked my tank it looked dead so I went to my LFS and asked what I should do and they said that my rock is certainly not dead and only the inhabitants would be but not all. I knew the shop keeper for over 10 years and he wouldn't be telling me porkies. So I got some more LR and got about 25% discount.

 

Having rushed home something really amazed me. My rocks were blooming in the tank!!!!! Had all kinds of worms and wierd living things sputing out and moving!!! Purple algae was spreading to parts of the rocks which wasn't originally there.

 

After adding the new rocks to help seed my tank. Loads of other things started to grow. I got this purple like plant with green buds growing rapidly on the rock that I had originally dipped in the RO water for 2 hours (it wasn't anywhere near the new LR that I had added). The growth rate was something like 1mm every 4 hours.

 

Is this a miracle or some sort of build up to the end of my tank?

 

Mike ???

Link to comment

sound like good news. stop worrying about your rocks, and just sit back and relax. If you really want to build up more bacteria pop, throw a piece or 2 of raw squid in there, and let that bad boy rot... on yeah, rotting squid...only way to go. :)

 

good luck and relax buddy

Link to comment
Originally posted by samwoo2go

If you really want to build up more bacteria pop, throw a piece or 2 of raw squid in there, and let that bad boy rot... on yeah, rotting squid...only way to go. :)

 

 

i am going to be kind and assume this was a joke. this would be the worst thing you could do to rock that is stressed. well, it would be the worst thing you could do to rock that was NOT stressed!

 

doing things like this do NOT help your tank cycle.

 

 

 

nalbar

Link to comment

sivinhliu, thats great that things are still living in your rock. i would have to say that i've never heard of rock surviving a fresh water dip, especially one that lasted an hour and a half, lol. but do me a favor, as i think this will make the rock much less stressed. turn each individual piece over and over while it's underwater. what you'll find is that bubbles come out from EVERYWHERE. when you take rock from fresh air and dump it into saltwater, a lot of the pores in the rock get trapped with a bubble of fresh air in them. the bacteria in the rock cannot survive in that state, and you'll end up losing a lot of bacteria and stressing the rock even more. after you've done this, instead of a lot of the bacteria dying (and causing a cycle), it can immediately start to reproduce. i'm not saying that this will speed up your cycle, or cause you to not have one at all, but i think it will help.

 

i would think that throwing some type of dead organic material in the tank would introduce ammonia to the tank, giving the bacteria something to feed on, allowing it to reproduce faster. can you explain to me why this is a bad idea nalbar? please don't take this as a flame of any sorts, i just want to here the other side of the story :)

Link to comment

nalbar--I don't thnk that's a joke. I think he was recommending it seriously. It's a tried-and-true technique for cycling a tank when there's insufficient die-off from the LR to get the cycle going.

 

This is *NOT* the case here. After dipping that rock, you should have *huge* die-off and consequently do not need anything else to get your cycle going. So yah. Pull the crab/squid/whatever out.

 

--B

Link to comment
sivinhliu, thats great that things are still living in your rock. i would have to say that i've never heard of rock surviving a fresh water dip, especially one that lasted an hour and a half, lol. but do me a favor, as i think this will make the rock much less stressed. turn each individual piece over and over while it's underwater.

 

This is a good idea, but make sure to leave them right-side up in the end, else lack of light will cause even more die-off.

 

i would think that throwing some type of dead organic material in the tank would introduce ammonia to the tank, giving the bacteria something to feed on, allowing it to reproduce faster. can you explain to me why this is a bad idea nalbar? please don't take this as a flame of any sorts, i just want to here the other side of the story

 

There's all kinds of stuff on LR besides bacteria (which, incidentally, should by all rights and means be dying as well). I would bet dollars to doughnuts that there will be *huge* die-off and a great big ammonia spike in this tank very shortly, if not already.

 

Nalbar's (valid) point is that the rock is already stressed and in all likelihood will be showing bigtime die-off very soon. More ammonia is simply going to put even more stress on the critters that came in with the rock.

 

By the way....looking at what's going on in your tank in terms of life is great. It's probably the #1 way to figure out what's going on in there. But another really good idea would be to *test* the tank. Go find an ammonia test kit, a nitrite test kit, and a nitrate test kit. Test and post your results. =)

 

--B

Link to comment

Im going to be kind and assume you misunderstood me nalbar.

 

The squid thing is called the the Squid Method and Iv'e used that method to cycle all my tanks (except the 1st tank, I used 2 damsels :( ) Do a search online for squid method, and you'll find a ton of results. :)

 

Secondly, I told sivinhliu first to chill and relax since some of if not most of his hitchhikers survived the ordeal, its a good indication that most of the bacterias have also. (bacterias are among the worlds toughest organisms)

Then I told him if he reallly want to build up the bacteria level, then perform the squid method.

 

Of course you can cycle your tank with just the die offs from the LR, but its just too slow and not enough for some. I just hardly doubt that a little of added ammonia is going to kill or "stress"whatever creatures in that rock. I mean common guys, when LRs are taken out of the ocean, some are left exposed to air for hours on end before they hit water again. They are shipped dry, being thrown into vasely different salinity, temp, PH, Ammonia level or whatnot w/o any sort of acclimation. (thats pretty "stressful" if you ask me). did anyone ever drip acciliminate LR before? I didn't think so. the creatures that live in the rocks are simply tougher than we think to make it all the way to our aquarium, the way LRs are treated.

Link to comment

ok, i will attempt to explain it.

 

a 'cycle' never ends. it is a constant process of converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. all that eventually happens is the peaks and valleys of each bacterial population becomes smaller as an equalibrium is reached. in other words, after the cycle, just the right population of bacteria exists to convert into each phase. if a fish then poops, it adds more ammonia. so you get a tiny spike (to small to read on tests) as bacteria consume it and convert (poop) it to nitrite. then, once the ammonia is converted, those bacteria, no longer having food, die back to the previous population (ironicly creating ANOTHER tiny spike as they die). so a series of 'waves' of population surges and die offs are constantly going on in all reef tanks AT ALL TIMES, FOREVER.

 

when live rock is added to a tank, ALL (at least we hope so) these bacteria are already there. but even they have died back in their (wrapped in wet newspaper) journey from the ocean to the tank. dropping a rotting piece of meat in there is not needed to 'kick start' their actions. they have all the food they need, because there is already LOTS of die off (food). in fact, any ammonia spike is proof there is TOO MUCH die off for the existing population to handle. why add MORE? you run the risk of reaching a 'boundry' as the rot overwhelms whatever ammonia converting bacteria you have, causeing a TOTAL tank crash. in other words, the sudden flood of rot kills all the bacteria before conversion can begin.

 

also, what do you accomplish with the rotten fish even if it works? you get a HUGE surge of that population of bacteria, THEN IT DIES BECAUSE OF NO FOOD! causing ANOTHER LARGE SPIKE as it dies! nothing is accomplished (because the bacterial population has dropped back) except the 'surge' of ammonia is larger than it would have been, causing extra stress on the animals we want to survive. extra stress means extra death, which we are trying to avoid.

 

now let us take our original posters situation. he killed most of his ammonia 'eating' bacteria. period. they are dead no matter what he sees. they died instantly when fresh water hit them. he is seeing MACRO life, not MICRO life. he is gunna get a hard cycle. simply because he has nothing to handle ammonia left in his tank. of course not everything will die. just everything that is sensitive to fresh water dips. yes, some bacteria will survive, which is why i told him to get his rock in salt water NOW. but he is probably on the edge of a crash, and you do not want to push him over.

 

sorry about the long post, but this myth of adding dead fish/shrimp is absurd, AND HAS NO BENEFIT TO YOUR TANK. it is not a 'tried and true' way of cycling a tank. what you are seeing is tanks cycling IN SPITE of the dead shrimp/fish, not BECAUSE of the shrimp/fish. it is dangerous advice (and TOTALLY UNNEEDED) to give over the internet because you have NO idea how close the recipient of the advice is to a crash.

 

i also strongly suspect that it can cause future algae problems but i have no proof of that. but you certainly are adding HUGE amounts of phospahte into your tank when you add dead fish/shrimp. i thought we wanted to REMOVE phosphate, not add it!

 

 

i am afraid my limited writing skills prevent me from explaining myself well, i can only do my best.

 

 

 

::WHEW!::

 

 

 

nalbar

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recommended Discussions

×
×
  • Create New...