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Re-considering filtration need opinions


OPtasia

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Hey guys. I'm re-thinking the filtration setup for my Wife's 32 gallon biocube. Right now, it's running:

 

  • Stock carbon/floss tray filtering overflow from sump one to sump two: I'm considering swapping the carbon/floss tray at the top of the chamber for either a polybiomarine poly pad or just polyester filter floss. Each to be rinsed or tossed out weekly with water changes.
  • Sponge filters in the second level of the tower: I'm considering removing them altogether because they're a nitrate factory.
  • Chaetomorpha: Chaeto occupies the rest of sump #2 and it's lit with an IT Magnafuge light: There's no liverock rubble in the sump. It's pure chaeto and it is full of pods. I'm considering replacing the magnafuge for the newer Chaetomax light because I really want as much intense chaetomorpha nutrient export as possible.

 

The main display has approx. 30 lbs. of CaribSea Life Rock that's seasoning out with the cycle, as well as a single bag of CarbSea standard live sand.  The depth of the sand bed is approx. 1" deep. I do have an Eshopps skimmer but after a single week of use, it managed to unravel a portion of the magnetic impeller base. When that happened, the Succe Micra pump began to rattle and make a god awful racket. I had to reach out to Eshopps customer service to get them to send me a new one. I'm going to mod the skimmer with some tubing so I can dangle the Micra pump underneath the skimmer instead of where it usually mounts on the side so I can get it to fit in sump #1. I'm pretty religious about water testing with Red Sea kits and a small weekly 5 gallon water change with RO/DI water is routine. I use Red Sea Pro salts. 

 

My questions are:

 

  1. I'd like to eliminate any potential nitrate factories. Is removing the sponge media a good idea?
  2. Is a well lit refugium in sump #2 going to be enough for nitrate and phosphate export, or should I consider adding purigen and chemi-pure elite to the mix? Keep the magnafuge or upgrade to the chaetomax light?
  3. Back in the day, poly pads from polybiomarine were considered a godsend. Provided i'm cleaning the pad bi-weekly to weekly (depending on how fast it adsorbs gunk), are there any issues in using it? Is there something better like a biocube filter sock or just tossing a big thick wad of poly fill pillow stuffing in there as a mechanical filter?
  4. Mod the skimmer for sump #1? Or just go skimmerless?
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Interesting how the same thing is viewed differrently.  When you say nitrate factory, I say good.  I want my stuff to grow.  Nitrogen is 79% of the athmosphere for a reason.  Cynobacteria convert free nitrogen gas absorbed in the water into an inorganic nutrient.  Cynobacteria changed earth’s early athmosphere from sulfur & methane to oxygen.  Cynobacteria imbedded in coral biomass provide nitrate to coral when bulk water is nitrogen deprived.

 

If you are wanting to get rid of “nitrate factories, I suggest you go after Cyanobacteria.  Sorry for the “Tongue in cheek”.  I prefer to manage nitrate differrently.  When undesirable algae pops up, I get janitors to balance things out.

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Morning just my thoughts:

 

  1. Not a fan of sponges, if you remove it do a little at a time.  Same with bioballs, for those that want to remove them.  I still use bioballs and rinse them every other month.  I don't have any problems.  But if you are looking to transition, do it slowly over a few months.
  2. Chemipur and purigan are fine even if you run the refugium.  For me chemipur keeps my water crystal clear.  To some that is not a big thing, but it's a big deal to me.  Purigan is a chemical skimmer, so no harm there.
  3. I don't reuse any pads.  It's hard to clean them, really clean them.  I took one of the old coralife filters, pulled of the floss, dumped the carbon, and place filter floss pads on top of that.  I then change this weekly.
  4. Purigen is a chemical skimmer, a mechanical one is not needed.  I only use Purigen now.  If you want to tinker a mechanical skimmer will keep you active :)
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I may have misread, if you mean that sponge that is in the third chamber, you can remove it, however, you have to make sure none of the refugium material (Chaeto) get into the pump.  If you mean there is a sponge in the second chamber, that's what I was commenting on above.

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17 minutes ago, Subsea said:

Interesting how the same thing is viewed differrently.  When you say nitrate factory, I say good.  I want my stuff to grow.  Nitrogen is 79% of the athmosphere for a reason.  Cynobacteria convert free nitrogen gas absorbed in the water into an inorganic nutrient.  Cynobacteria changed earth’s early athmosphere from sulfur & methane to oxygen.  Cynobacteria imbedded in coral biomass provide nitrate to coral when bulk water is nitrogen deprived.

 

If you are wanting to get rid of “nitrate factories, I suggest you go after Cyanobacteria.  Sorry for the “Tongue in cheek”.  I prefer to manage nitrate differrently.  When undesirable algae pops up, I get janitors to balance things out.

That's just it. There's so many different means to an end that it's hard to tell which is the best path to follow to get your tank where it needs to be. I'm sure there's several solutions to the same problem, which is how to best manage runaway nitrates. I know that a modest level of nitrate isn't necessarily that bad for corals and inverts, but i'd like to keep the nitrates to manageable (below 10 ppm) levels. I have added five ceriths and two trochus snails to the tank to help address the ubiquitous new tank syndrome diatom bloom currently happening in the tank. Between the snails and the pods populating the chaeto, i'm hoping they'll deal with diatom and cyano in short order to keep it in check.

Other than that, I want to keep the bioload focused on corals and possibly one fire shrimp to help scavenge up any food left uneaten by the tank's single clownfish.

 

17 minutes ago, Flexin said:

I may have misread, if you mean that sponge that is in the third chamber, you can remove it, however, you have to make sure none of the refugium material (Chaeto) get into the pump.  If you mean there is a sponge in the second chamber, that's what I was commenting on above.

No, you read it right. I have aqua-clear style filter sponges in the first chamber of the stock media basket, just below the stock overflow tray of floss and carbon meant to be the mechanical and chemical filter. My original thoughts were the extra sponge would be an insurance policy for bacterial colonization because i've started the tank with such a small layer of live sand and around one pound per gallon of Life Rock (not actual live rock). 

 

As to that mini little black sponge that fits in the overflow slot from sump #2 to sump #3, it's in there, too. If I decide to run Chemi Pure Elite and/or purigen, that's probably where it will end up. Either there or in the overflow at the top of the media basket so that water will have to pass through the media.

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Lot's of right answers here.

 

Look at my 40 gallon messy tank.  Only a skimmer, no other filtration other than an empty HOB sump for dosing.  See all the algae on the walls?  It tries to reach an equilibrium and because I don't have any other filtration the tank makes up for it by growing algae 'pads' everywhere it can.  :)  Based on this I would say some cheato might help, the more the better.   The idea is to reach that balance of imports and exports so the right answer depends on fish load, feeding, etc.   I rarely do water changes so the skimmer helps, if you do regular water changes I don't know if a skimmer would really help that much.  

 

In my 40 if I try and control PO4 I end up dropping it too much or too fast and some of the LPS corals suffer.  The algae does the job for me, I just have to clean up the mess every few months.  :D  Most folks prefer a cleaner looking display so the goal is to move the mess (cheato, hair algae, etc) out of site, or try and control nutrients so these never grow.   I can't be bothered to run a tank that clean, even in my SPS 150 gallon tank.

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9 minutes ago, markalot said:

Lot's of right answers here.

 

Look at my 40 gallon messy tank.  Only a skimmer, no other filtration other than an empty HOB sump for dosing.  See all the algae on the walls?  It tries to reach an equilibrium and because I don't have any other filtration the tank makes up for it by growing algae 'pads' everywhere it can.  :)  Based on this I would say some cheato might help, the more the better.   The idea is to reach that balance of imports and exports so the right answer depends on fish load, feeding, etc.   I rarely do water changes so the skimmer helps, if you do regular water changes I don't know if a skimmer would really help that much.  

Currently, sump #2 of the biocube is about 1/4 filled with chaeto. The magfuge LED lights are mounted via the magnet so that the light is shining bright on the main chaeto mass. My concern with that light is that it's not as efficient as it could be. I'm thinking the chaeto max is more intense as well as more punch into the red spectrum which really helps plants grow fast. I've grown terrestrial plants under LED lights and if you really want explosive growth, adding the redder spectrum lights should definitely help.

9 minutes ago, markalot said:

 

In my 40 if I try and control PO4 I end up dropping it too much or too fast and some of the LPS corals suffer.  The algae does the job for me, I just have to clean up the mess every few months.  :D  Most folks prefer a cleaner looking display so the goal is to move the mess (cheato, hair algae, etc) out of site, or try and control nutrients so these never grow.   I can't be bothered to run a tank that clean, even in my SPS 150 gallon tank.

I took a look at your tank. Yeah, aesthetically, I prefer a cleaner looking tank. I know that we'll be populating this biocube as a mixed reef (softies and LPS mostly with maybe a very forgiving pocillopora or encrusting lepto or monti frag) and I also know that not only will the corals selected tolerate but might actually benefit from SOME small amounts of nitrate and phosphate. It's a tricky balance. 

 

What I want is filtration and chaeto growth to keep up with the biomass and nutrient inputs so I don't see nitrates skyrocketing back up to 50+ ppm the day after a water change. This is why I need and respect diverse answers to my questions from people that've been down that road such as yourself. :) 

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Grow some Xenia where it can't get out of control, great nitrate users. :D  In my 150 I run Seachem Matrix in a big reactor to help control nitrates.  It literally took 6 months but eventually nitrates dropped and never returned even though the reactor is full of detritus.  I shake it from time to time to get the dirt into the sump.   Bigger tank, but the principle still applies.  You could replace the sponge / bio balls with matrix and let the small pore size help with denitrification?  I like to keep nitrates around 5 for the best coral color, even with acros.  My big tank runs near 0 and from time to time I get color loss due to apparent low nutrients so I dose nitrates (CaNO3).  It's been a royal pain trying to find a balance and even with the size of the tank just a few drops here and there can make all the difference.  

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5 minutes ago, markalot said:

Grow some Xenia where it can't get out of control, great nitrate users. :D  In my 150 I run Seachem Matrix in a big reactor to help control nitrates.  It literally took 6 months but eventually nitrates dropped and never returned even though the reactor is full of detritus.  I shake it from time to time to get the dirt into the sump.   Bigger tank, but the principle still applies.  You could replace the sponge / bio balls with matrix and let the small pore size help with denitrification?  I like to keep nitrates around 5 for the best coral color, even with acros.  My big tank runs near 0 and from time to time I get color loss due to apparent low nutrients so I dose nitrates (CaNO3).  It's been a royal pain trying to find a balance and even with the size of the tank just a few drops here and there can make all the difference.  

Ugh. Xenia. Don't get me started with Xenia and/or GSP. ;) Maybe I can give you some of my sponge filters to help get your nitrates up while simultaneously lowering mine. :)

 

I've been reading up on aquarium chemistry and a few things are starting to click. With regard to the sponge filter media, what i've been reading is that they're great for converting ammonia to nitrate, but terrible for dentrification. The problem appears to be with the water passing through the sponge constantly, that it keeps the nitrate they create in suspension in your water column. If you let your live rock and live sand do the nitrogen cycle work instead, the nitrate produced tends to remain in proximity to the denser inner core of the rocks and sand, where dentrification will take place. This is beginning to make sense to me.

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If denitrification is important, then get some sintered glass media.  It will produce those conditions.  Also, Sprung & Delbeek in Reef Aquarium Volume 3, document de- nitrification and nitrification “close coupled”.  I consider a sponge a good mechanical filter.  If you don’t like it, then throw it out.  Bacteria will grow somewhere else to do the job, no worries.  Instead of sponge, use disposable filter floss In easiest chamber to service, preferable, it should be the first so, as not to foul up built in filtration.

 

In the post that I read from you, I hear “nutrient export”.  To each his own.  

 

This is an 8 year old propagation 55G grow out tank, that is currently curing 30 lbs of diver collected rock from GOM.  It is sump-less and skimmerless.  Two Aquaclear 70 HOB and one small canister  filter maintain this tank.

 

 Obviously, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.   I like my GSP and I like my Xenia

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21 minutes ago, Subsea said:

 Bacteria will grow somewhere else to do the job, no worries.  Instead of sponge, use disposable filter floss In easiest chamber to service, preferable, it should be the first so, as not to foul up built in filtration.

I'm leaning this way for mechanical filtration. Something cheap that can filter out larger organics and particulates that can be rinsed out or tossed out as needed. Since there doesn't seem to be a biocube filter sock option around. The polybiomarine small pads will fit with just a minor trim in the top part of the biocube sump between the overflow of sump chamber #1 and #2. Those pads can be rinsed out as needed. Or, I could use simple cheap filter floss poly fill and just toss it out as needed.

21 minutes ago, Subsea said:

 

 Obviously, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.   I like my GSP and I like my Xenia

It is indeed. The look of that tank, to me, is reminiscent of a wild reef being overgrown by caulerpa. It definitely has a natural look to it that's similar to an intertidal zone in my eyes. That much caulerpa isn't quite the look that i'm going for in the display of this biocube. My Wife and I would prefer a macro-free display tank.

 

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Okay. I had a heart to heart with a LFS owner I trust, and he showed me his setups for his biocubes. He runs skimmerless with no bio media in the sumps and modifies the floss/carbon tray a bit by ripping off the floss, dumping the carbon and keeping the plastic part of the tray. He hand cuts coralife 50 micron pure-flo pads to fit on top of the gutted plastic trays and then also runs the pre-packed mini packets of seachem purigen and phos-guard in the first layer of the media basket. Like my setup, he adds chaeto to the bottom of sump #2 with alternating 12/12 magnafuge light like mine.

 

He washes the pads out twice a week and replaces the purigen and phos-guard monthly. His only other maintenance on them is a 20% water change weekly. He squirts down the rockwork and coral with a turkey baster to blow off any debris from the rocks, let's it settle and filter for an hour, washes the pad out and gravel vac's the substrate. That's it. No dosing anything.

 

I asked him about recharging the purigen and/or phos-guard, and he said even though it can be done, it's seldom done properly or successfully and can cause a tank crash if it isn't done right. He just prefers to toss and replace chemical filtration media monthly. I know his costs on filtration media is probably half what he charges but if I decide to adopt his practices i'll be sure to source from a less expensive source (his margins and his prices on a lot of things are high).

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13 minutes ago, OPtasia said:

Okay. I had a heart to heart with a LFS owner I trust, and he showed me his setups for his biocubes. He runs skimmerless with no bio media in the sumps and modifies the floss/carbon tray a bit by ripping off the floss, dumping the carbon and keeping the plastic part of the tray. He hand cuts coralife 50 micron pure-flo pads to fit on top of the gutted plastic trays and then also runs the pre-packed mini packets of seachem purigen and phos-guard in the first layer of the media basket. Like my setup, he adds chaeto to the bottom of sump #2 with alternating 12/12 magnafuge light like mine.

 

He washes the pads out twice a week and replaces the purigen and phos-guard monthly. His only other maintenance on them is a 20% water change weekly. He squirts down the rockwork and coral with a turkey baster to blow off any debris from the rocks, let's it settle and filter for an hour, washes the pad out and gravel vac's the substrate. That's it. No dosing anything.

 

I asked him about recharging the purigen and/or phos-guard, and he said even though it can be done, it's seldom done properly or successfully and can cause a tank crash if it isn't done right. He just prefers to toss and replace chemical filtration media monthly. I know his costs on filtration media is probably half what he charges but if I decide to adopt his practices i'll be sure to source from a less expensive source (his margins and his prices on a lot of things are high).

Washing any sorts of pads in a PITA. I use this stuff intank sells on Amazon for 2 day shipping.  It's a big peice I pre cut so I can change it twice a week. Lasts forever but I run the intank media basket so my cut peices are 3x3 inches. 

 

I run the intank fuge basket with cheato . I don't think light is that big of a deal with cheato in our sumps..I use some cheap led for a 10 gallon aquarium I bought on Amazon Velcro on the back. It has 3 rows of 8 leds. I actually put tape over 2/3 of it to limit film algae and got  better growth from the  cheato. Imo the growth of the algae depends more on your bio load dirtier tank faster growth.

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Yep, the coralife pad material comes in huge sheets that you cut yourself. It looks like that I can easily get about 20 pads cut to size for the top of the tray and just toss them or wash them as needed like used filter floss. 

 

I'm going to keep the magnafuge light on the chaeto. That is, until a few more chaetomax lights hit the market after the first of the year. Then, i'll probably buy one and switch to using it. Those red spectrum lights on it really drive plant growth IME. 

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Not dosing anything (I'm only considering Alk/Calcium) will be fine for a softie / slow growing LPS tank, be wary if you add any hard coral that can grow quickly.   I've seen it work in my 40 even with SPS (not acros) when I'm too lazy to dose and Alk falls to 5.5 for a while, but there's a few corals considered 'easy' that can't handle the fall and rise very well.   

 

 

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Often times in reef keeping people look for the most complicated solution, often for 'problems' that don't even exist...but just 'might' happen.  Filtration is at the top of the list for this phenomenon.  I'd ask the question "What current problems are you trying to solve with changing your filtration methods?".

 

Did you know that a thriving nano reef tank of mixed corals can be run effectively and for a very long time without any chemical filtration, continuous mechanical filtration, macro algae filtration, skimmers...and whatever else you can think of?  This little fact should at least be of interest when deciding on how to maintain a reef tank.

 

Your LFS owner is correct in that water changes along with blowing off the rocks and gravel vacuuming to dislodge detritus are sound techniques for keeping a system functioning effectively.  However, the use of chemical media is not a necessity in a system that has a balanced bioload and one that is allowed to mature 'naturally' (IMO, it is best to use to correct a specific system imbalance caused (usually) in some manner by the aquarist).  

 

Speaking of the LFS, when I had received some of their time/knowledge/expertise I would reciprocate by either buying something or bringing in a frag of coral during a later visit that they could sell.  I think of it like using a store's restroom while on a trip where I always buy something (even though it is often a bit pricey) for the privilege of using their facilities.  Food for thought...

 

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33 minutes ago, OPtasia said:

... pads cut to size for the top of the tray and just toss them or wash them as needed like used filter floss. 

You are really intent on reusing the material it seems.

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just my 2 cents but I would remove the filter sponges.  They do encourage higher nitrate regardless of how you view nitrate.  right next to the sponges you have chaeto so seems to me  you are just feeding the cheato from your sump rather than from the display.  I suggest filter floss based on recent success I have seen in my own tank by doing same.  This is assuming you are concerned about the Nitrate in the first place. 

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2 hours ago, markalot said:

Not dosing anything (I'm only considering Alk/Calcium) will be fine for a softie / slow growing LPS tank, be wary if you add any hard coral that can grow quickly.   I've seen it work in my 40 even with SPS (not acros) when I'm too lazy to dose and Alk falls to 5.5 for a while, but there's a few corals considered 'easy' that can't handle the fall and rise very well.   

 

 

Yep. I have that in mind. It's going to be a mixed reef dominated by softies and LPS, although we would like to add a more tolerant SPS such as a birdsnest and/or encrusting montipora. I have a full run of Red Sea test kits and two part calcium already in place for cal/alk/mag, as well as potassium and iodine test kits and supplements. I don't see much at all evaporation from the tank as the newer Biocube hoods aren't ventilated and tend to trap moisture, so top off water isn't as much of a concern on this tank.

 

2 hours ago, Nano sapiens said:

Often times in reef keeping people look for the most complicated solution, often for 'problems' that don't even exist...but just 'might' happen.  Filtration is at the top of the list for this phenomenon.  I'd ask the question "What current problems are you trying to solve with changing your filtration methods?".

 

Did you know that a thriving nano reef tank of mixed corals can be run effectively and for a very long time without any chemical filtration, continuous mechanical filtration, macro algae filtration, skimmers...and whatever else you can think of?  This little fact should at least be of interest when deciding on how to maintain a reef tank.

Agreed. A mature tank is a beautiful thing. 

2 hours ago, Nano sapiens said:

 

Speaking of the LFS, when I had received some of their time/knowledge/expertise I would reciprocate by either buying something or bringing in a frag of coral during a later visit that they could sell.  I think of it like using a store's restroom while on a trip where I always buy something (even though it is often a bit pricey) for the privilege of using their facilities.  Food for thought...

 

Mhmm agreed. They get plenty of my business. 

 

2 hours ago, Flexin said:

You are really intent on reusing the material it seems.

I'm really not. Believe me, i'd prefer to just toss it out weekly.

 

51 minutes ago, Duane Clark said:

just my 2 cents but I would remove the filter sponges.  They do encourage higher nitrate regardless of how you view nitrate.  right next to the sponges you have chaeto so seems to me  you are just feeding the cheato from your sump rather than from the display.  I suggest filter floss based on recent success I have seen in my own tank by doing same.  This is assuming you are concerned about the Nitrate in the first place. 

Correct. Nitrate and phosphate are my major concerns. I have removed the filter sponges already, including the sponge in the biocube that separates sump #2 and sump #3. In it's place, i've added some plastic egg crate style mesh that's used for hobby crochet to keep the chaeto inside of sump #2. I've decided to go with the LFS's setup for his biocubes. Mainly because his tanks look fantastic and he's run them that way for years. So, i'd rather try to emulate his methods for success.

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15 hours ago, OPtasia said:

Yep. I have that in mind. It's going to be a mixed reef dominated by softies and LPS, although we would like to add a more tolerant SPS such as a birdsnest and/or encrusting montipora. I have a full run of Red Sea test kits and two part calcium already in place for cal/alk/mag, as well as potassium and iodine test kits and supplements. I don't see much at all evaporation from the tank as the newer Biocube hoods aren't ventilated and tend to trap moisture, so top off water isn't as much of a concern on this tank.

 

Agreed. A mature tank is a beautiful thing. 

Mhmm agreed. They get plenty of my business. 

 

I'm really not. Believe me, i'd prefer to just toss it out weekly.

 

Correct. Nitrate and phosphate are my major concerns. I have removed the filter sponges already, including the sponge in the biocube that separates sump #2 and sump #3. In it's place, i've added some plastic egg crate style mesh that's used for hobby crochet to keep the chaeto inside of sump #2. I've decided to go with the LFS's setup for his biocubes. Mainly because his tanks look fantastic and he's run them that way for years. So, i'd rather try to emulate his methods for success.

Optasia,

As I have read differrent post of yours, I hear nutrient export as a core belief.  For certain, everything that grows in nature needs both nitrate and phosphate to exist.  Redfield Ratio says: Carbon/Nitrogen/Phosphate 106/16:1.  I disagree with the ratio, because I had Red Ogo I grew for human consumption tested which showed nitrogen/phosphate at 35:1.  The real point is that corals must have nitrogen and phosphate to grow, including SPS, LPS, NPS, SOFTIES, MUSHROOMS, LEATHERS & WHIPS.

 

I say, “why focus on nutrient export by targeting specific nutrients to be removed”.  Instead, Grow corals, “frag & sell” corals for “nutrient export”

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"Correct. Nitrate and phosphate are my major concerns. I have removed the filter sponges already, including the sponge in the biocube that separates sump #2 and sump #3. In it's place, i've added some plastic egg crate style mesh that's used for hobby crochet to keep the chaeto inside of sump #2. I've decided to go with the LFS's setup for his biocubes. Mainly because his tanks look fantastic and he's run them that way for years. So, i'd rather try to emulate his methods for success."

 

Let us get specific with nitrtate and phosphate.  Everything that grows on planet earth needs nitrate and phosphate to exist.  Redfield Ratio says 106 parts carbon, 16 parts nitrogen and 1 part phosphate.  If you look at the molecular structure of every living organism, phosphate is the connecting molecule to hold it together.  So if you starve your reef, it will grow that way.

 

With respect to your comment about my tank looking like a wild reef getting taken over by invasive Caulerpa, understand this, the reefs of the world would be taken over by algae if it were not for an abundence of herbivores.  The point is that corals and algae compete for the same nutrients.  I feed heavily, then get janitors accordingly. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Subsea said:

Optasia,

As I have read differrent post of yours, I hear nutrient export as a core belief.  For certain, everything that grows in nature needs both nitrate and phosphate to exist.  Redfield Ratio says: Carbon/Nitrogen/Phosphate 106/16:1.  I disagree with the ratio, because I had Red Ogo I grew for human consumption tested which showed nitrogen/phosphate at 35:1.  The real point is that corals must have nitrogen and phosphate to grow, including SPS, LPS, NPS, SOFTIES, MUSHROOMS, LEATHERS & WHIPS.

 

I say, “why focus on nutrient export by targeting specific nutrients to be removed”.  Instead, Grow corals, “frag & sell” corals for “nutrient export”

I understand. It's not about the complete removal of NPK from the system but keeping it in check where the corals and other inverts can still grow and remain healthy. You know as well as I do that testing for nutrients in Caribbean and Pacific reefs which are far removed from civilization the corals are thriving in an ultra low nutrient environment. We're talking undetectable levels of nutrients and yet they grow and thrive. I also know that there are some corals thriving in the high traffic bays and waterways around Miami in pollution level amounts of nutrients and garbage. In my last nano, I hadn't learned the lesson of nitrate nutrient control, only to condemn my corals to browning out under high nitrogen and phosphorous and metal halide light. The browning lead to expulsion of photosynthetic zoaxhanthellae and the death of my corals.

 

I'm not going to risk that in this tank. My goal is less than 10 ppm nitrate (5ppm being a decent sweet spot to aim for) and less than .05 ppm phosphates managed through coral consumption, chemical filtration, water changes and chaeto growth. I don't think those are unreasonable goals, nor are they a completely nutrient free environment. Reef janitors in the form of mixed species of snails (cerith, trochus) and a tuxedo or pincushion urchin are going to be the primary cleaner crew. I don't trust hermit crabs. My Wife would also like a scarlet cleaner shrimp (fire shrimp) which will also scavenge for uneaten bits of this and that. The only fish in the tank is a tomato clown. 

 

3 hours ago, Subsea said:

Let us get specific with nitrtate and phosphate.  Everything that grows on planet earth needs nitrate and phosphate to exist.  Redfield Ratio says 106 parts carbon, 16 parts nitrogen and 1 part phosphate.  If you look at the molecular structure of every living organism, phosphate is the connecting molecule to hold it together.  So if you starve your reef, it will grow that way.

 

With respect to your comment about my tank looking like a wild reef getting taken over by invasive Caulerpa, understyand this, the reefs of the world would be taken over by algae if it were not for an abundence of herbivores.  The point is that corals and algae compete for the same nutrients.  I feed heavily, then get janitors accordingly. 

 

 

I meant no disrespect for your very natural looking tank. It's just not the aesthetic look that I want for this biocube. Ultimately, your algaes don't remove nitrates and phosphates from the tank, just the water column. They merely bind and sequester those nutrients out of the water and aren't truly removed from the tank unless they are physically removed.  Corals and reef janitors, likewise, consume nutrients through absorbing them or through the macroalgaes and utilize a portion in the health and growth of the animal. Those nutrients wind up right  back in the water through respiration, feces and upon the demise and decomposition of the animals in your tank unless those animals and their wastes are also likewise removed. If you're feeding heavily and relying only on reef janitors to consume macroalgaes, then you have no nutrient export from the system as a whole without some form of physical nutrient removal. That's not sustainable in the long run without actual export of nutrients in some form from the tank through dentrification, physical algae removal, fragging, etc.. 

 

I'm not looking to starve the corals of nutrients, i'm looking to put a bit and bridle on those nutrients and reign them in. Right now, i'm staring at a tank nearing the end of it's new tank cycle that has seven snails in it and one tomato clown. Ammonia is zero. Nitrites are .5 and nitrates are 50+. Phosphorous is .15. I have to get those levels down. Chaeto will help but I won't be able to grow fast enough in the sump to keep up. Water changes will help but it's going to take large volume changes on a bi-weekly basis with RO/DI water for a few weeks to get those levels down. My Eshopps skimmer's magnetic impeller's base shredded itself and spewed chunks of rubbery magnetic chunks into my sump after one week of use, that plus trying to fit a workable skimmmer in a biocube is easier said than done with such a low lid and fluctuating water levels. So, i've switched it over to skimmerless with enhanced mechanical and chemical filtration through fining the water (50 micron filter pad) and enhanced chemical filtration (purigen, phosguard). I've also removed the filter sponges because ultimately they are of no benefit and inject more nitrate into the water than they remove. It's my belief that water changes, light feedings, very fine mechanical filtration, chemical filtration, reef janitors and chaeto algae removal are what I need to do to get this tank reigned in and balanced.

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2 hours ago, OPtasia said:

I understand. It's not about the complete removal of NPK from the system but keeping it in check where the corals and other inverts can still grow and remain healthy. You know as well as I do that testing for nutrients in Caribbean and Pacific reefs which are far removed from civilization the corals are thriving in an ultra low nutrient environment. We're talking undetectable levels of nutrients and yet they grow and thrive. I also know that there are some corals thriving in the high traffic bays and waterways around Miami in pollution level amounts of nutrients and garbage. In my last nano, I hadn't learned the lesson of nitrate nutrient control, only to condemn my corals to browning out under high nitrogen and phosphorous and metal halide light. The browning lead to expulsion of photosynthetic zoaxhanthellae and the death of my corals.

 

I'm not going to risk that in this tank. My goal is less than 10 ppm nitrate (5ppm being a decent sweet spot to aim for) and less than .05 ppm phosphates managed through coral consumption, chemical filtration, water changes and chaeto growth. I don't think those are unreasonable goals, nor are they a completely nutrient free environment. Reef janitors in the form of mixed species of snails (cerith, trochus) and a tuxedo or pincushion urchin are going to be the primary cleaner crew. I don't trust hermit crabs. My Wife would also like a scarlet cleaner shrimp (fire shrimp) which will also scavenge for uneaten bits of this and that. The only fish in the tank is a tomato clown. 

 

I meant no disrespect for your very natural looking tank. It's just not the aesthetic look that I want for this biocube. Ultimately, your algaes don't remove nitrates and phosphates from the tank, just the water column. They merely bind and sequester those nutrients out of the water and aren't truly removed from the tank unless they are physically removed.  Corals and reef janitors, likewise, consume nutrients through absorbing them or through the macroalgaes and utilize a portion in the health and growth of the animal. Those nutrients wind up right  back in the water through respiration, feces and upon the demise and decomposition of the animals in your tank unless those animals and their wastes are also likewise removed. If you're feeding heavily and relying only on reef janitors to consume macroalgaes, then you have no nutrient export from the system as a whole without some form of physical nutrient removal. That's not sustainable in the long run without actual export of nutrients in some form from the tank through dentrification, physical algae removal, fragging, etc.. 

 

I'm not looking to starve the corals of nutrients, i'm looking to put a bit and bridle on those nutrients and reign them in. Right now, i'm staring at a tank nearing the end of it's new tank cycle that has seven snails in it and one tomato clown. Ammonia is zero. Nitrites are .5 and nitrates are 50+. Phosphorous is .15. I have to get those levels down. Chaeto will help but I won't be able to grow fast enough in the sump to keep up. Water changes will help but it's going to take large volume changes on a bi-weekly basis with RO/DI water for a few weeks to get those levels down. My Eshopps skimmer's magnetic impeller's base shredded itself and spewed chunks of rubbery magnetic chunks into my sump after one week of use, that plus trying to fit a workable skimmmer in a biocube is easier said than done with such a low lid and fluctuating water levels. So, i've switched it over to skimmerless with enhanced mechanical and chemical filtration through fining the water (50 micron filter pad) and enhanced chemical filtration (purigen, phosguard). I've also removed the filter sponges because ultimately they are of no benefit and inject more nitrate into the water than they remove. It's my belief that water changes, light feedings, very fine mechanical filtration, chemical filtration, reef janitors and chaeto algae removal are what I need to do to get this tank reigned in and balanced.

I agree with everything you said except,  “corals grow in nutrient poor environment”, this could not be further from the truth.  The only reason that nutrients would be low on a thriving reef is because the inhabitants of the reef consume nutrients  and grow.  In other words, nutrients go into desirable biomass.

 

When Ken  Felderman studied nutrient input/export, it was clearly demonstrated what works.  His numerous articles are at Advanced Aquaria.

 

Protein skimming removes 35% at best of DOC

GAC removed 60% of DOC

Reef inhabitants removed 75% of DOC.

 

 

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I wish you good fortune with your tank.  

 

What you see “as sequestering and binding”, could be said about fish and coral as well.  

 

My focus is nutrient recycling.  After 5 billion years of working out details,  Mother Nature is good enough for me.  While it is true that I don’t have Astro Turf for tank ascetics,  the reef inhabitants eat and grow at every level, including bacteria and more recently, sponges.

 

Conventional reef wisdom on protein skimming coupled with carbon dosing uses this as a nutrient export mechanism, remember 35% efficiency.  So, after removing nutrients, we dose a “coral smoothie” to feed corals.  Remember, we already took out skimmate to feed tomatoes.  To my way of thinking, “I am Robbing Peter to Pay  Paul “,

 

To each his own.  I am here to learn.  My 55G tank requires 10 minutes a week.  Because I value my R&R more than a clean tank, not necessarily healthy, I claim my title “Laissez Faire” reefer.

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2 hours ago, Subsea said:

I agree with everything you said except,  “corals grow in nutrient poor environment”, this could not be further from the truth.  The only reason that nutrients would be low on a thriving reef is because the inhabitants of the reef consume nutrients  and grow.  In other words, nutrients go into desirable biomass.

 

Perhaps a poor choice of phrase. The reef is indeed not nutrient poor but consuming nutrients at a rate where the levels are at or near zero unless something gets out of balance. New tanks are naturally out of balance and i'd love to eventually have this tank in a state of equilibrium where we can phase out chemical filtration. This tank isn't mature enough for that yet but may be there in six months to a year's time. :) Only time and patience will tell.

 

2 hours ago, Subsea said:

When Ken  Felderman studied nutrient input/export, it was clearly demonstrated what works.  His numerous articles are at Advanced Aquaria.

 

Protein skimming removes 35% at best of DOC

GAC removed 60% of DOC

Reef inhabitants removed 75% of DOC.

I'll have to take a look at his articles and review his methodology. They sound like an interesting read.

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