Slowly losing battle with cyano, I need help!!

[brianinak]

 

Hello all,

 

I am needing help.  I am losing battle with cyano.  It is not bad or carpeting substrate but starting to move up rocks.  Been trying to stay ahead of it, but think I am losing.  Sorry about the length of post, but want give necessary info for other to be able to help.  

 

Reefer 170 34g display, 9g sump.  System is approx. 4 months old

 

Water

Instant ocean salt

rodi 0tds

ammonia 0

nitrite 0

nitrate less than 5 (red sea)

phosphates 0.00 hanna low range

DKH around 8.4 to 8.6 and steady Hanna

PH 7.7 to 7.9 (low but not chasing )

 

Live stock

2 clowns

 

CUC

1 cleaner shrimp

5 astrea

3 hermits

Have lost a few snail over the past month, fear starving tank

 

corals (all frags)

1 mushroom

1 frog spawn

1 hammer

1 favia

1 zoa

1 cancy cane

1 pom pom xenia

 

feeding:

flakes or mysis (more flakes than mysis) feed ever other day.  Do not feel over feeding, if anything I am starving the tank

 

filtration

live rock and sand

protein skimmer; fairly light tea skimmate

mini ractor with carbon and GFO

 

Power head; maspect gyre 230 (30% various flow patterns throughout day).  Return pump 528g hr.

total flow 33x tank volume, if my math is correct

 

Maintenance:

increased to two water changes per week, went back to 1 per week.  Approx 13% volume change.  Vacuum or stir sand and blast rocks with turkey baster during water changes.

Have bubble trap that I rinse out with every water change

change carbon and gfo every two weeks for now.  Filter sock I change when looks dirty.

 

Prior to thanks giving I sucked out what I could of the cyano, 3 days with out lights and water change.  Tank looked a lot better, then came back.  Not sure the origin of the problem is.  

I am hoping not to go chemical route.  I must be missing something.  It is growing more in lower flow areas I have moved power head a few times to try to target problem areas, but then new ones pop up.

 

Plan: considering removing a large rock to allow more water movement, Wonder if my CUC too small, so not getting detritus etc.   Could increase flow, but 33x feels like should be enough.  Fish and corals doing great, getting some growth on corals and shrimp molts once to twice a month, fish look happy. 

 

 

Any advice/suggestion/feedback would be very welcomed.  

 

[OPtasia]

Clean it out as best you can with a siphon hose. Scrub any cyano mattes on the liverock with a new, unused toothbrush. Siphon the debris and detritus out. If everything is cleaned out and your nitrates/phosphates remain low, it'll crash eventually. If it's a dramatic case of cyano, try using Dr. Tim's waste-away or as a last resort an antibiotic like no-cyano. I don't recommend antibiotics but if it's severe and threatening your corals health, you might have to stoop to that.

[brandon429]

 

 

we can stop your cyano.

[ldballoon4]

Too many nutrients led to this problem- if it is Cyano. So get a better filter sock and change it out every TWO days. Yes, it is a pain but this will capture all that detritus you have. A 100 micron will help a lot in the beginning. dead snails are a primary reason cyano pops up IME. I would, in stead of scrubbing, to siphon it out off the rockwork using a silicon tubing. The hose is extremely flexible and you can pinch and release the tip as you pull off any HA and cyano. A small diameter is good 1/4-1/2". 

 

Make sure you know it's Cyano and not Dinos. That is a lot of live stock to introduce in a new tank especially in 4 months. So this may take a while to get your good bacteria to grow. Look up some of those products. Target feed the clowns. Vacuum out the sand, do a head count daily of your snails and you should be fine.

[Clown79]

I don't think the amount of livestock is the issue.

 

2 fish in that size tank is a  very low bioload.

 

Corals don't add a lot to the bioload.

 

Flake food and frozen is known to aid in nutrient issues.

 

You can feed your fish daily, it's healthy for them. Feed pellets and feed enough that only lasts 1 minute. 

With pellets you can feed pellet by pellet.

 

Reserve frozen foods to no more than 2 times a week.

 

What method do you use to wash the filter sock prior to reusing it? Many use bleach or hydrogen peroxide- this kills anything in the sock.

 

Have you considered using filter floss and changing it out more often during the cyano outbreak?

 

Add flow to the tank, ensure the sand vacuuming is done very thoroughly.

 

Reduce photo period by a 2 hrs. 

 

In between waterchanges, you can suck out the cyano with a turkey baster. You want to ensure you remove it, scrubbing it and letting it float around will cause further issues.

 

 

 

 

[brianinak]

3 hours ago, Clown79 said:

I don't think the amount of livestock is the issue.

 

2 fish in that size tank is a  very low bioload.

 

Corals don't add a lot to the bioload.

 

Flake food and frozen is known to aid in nutrient issues.

 

You can feed your fish daily, it's healthy for them. Feed pellets and feed enough that only lasts 1 minute. 

With pellets you can feed pellet by pellet.

 

Reserve frozen foods to no more than 2 times a week.

 

What method do you use to wash the filter sock prior to reusing it? Many use bleach or hydrogen peroxide- this kills anything in the sock.

 

Have you considered using filter floss and changing it out more often during the cyano outbreak?

 

Add flow to the tank, ensure the sand vacuuming is done very thoroughly.

 

Reduce photo period by a 2 hrs. 

 

In between waterchanges, you can suck out the cyano with a turkey baster. You want to ensure you remove it, scrubbing it and letting it float around will cause further issues.

 

 

 

 

Hey clown,  

I feel I do pretty good job managing the feeding, could do better.  Feeling less more often might be a good change for the issue.  I do wash filter socks, I do hot water, no soap, and cap full of bleach, then dry for a few days.  

Like the pellet idea, they would get it all!  Any worry about starving out the CUC?

 

In past have put some filter floss on top of bubble trap.  Will do that right now, and reduce light time down to 5 hours with 1 hour ramp up and ramp down.  Doing water change to day.  I plan on testing nitrates and phosphates of water going into tank.  Just make sure not feeding the issue.  

 

Thanks for the input

thanks everyone for the advice.

[AshCom]

Just out of curiosity, you use RO/DI water correct?

 

Have you considered decreasing your light intensity/light cycle?

Back in my beginner days, I had a huge cyano and diatom problem and tried everything my LRS said until one day my 5 year old nephew got a hold of the light controller and decreased all my levels and deleted two early morning setpoints. I found out 3 days later and after fixing what he did I realized the algae growth was a quarter of what it was! Learned two things; lower light isn't always bad and always put the adult toys where kiddos can't reach them! 

[ldballoon4]

Don't add any more live stock until you are cleared up for a month or two. Good Luck.

[brianinak]

2 hours ago, AshCom said:

Just out of curiosity, you use RO/DI water correct?

 

Have you considered decreasing your light intensity/light cycle?

Back in my beginner days, I had a huge cyano and diatom problem and tried everything my LRS said until one day my 5 year old nephew got a hold of the light controller and decreased all my levels and deleted two early morning setpoints. I found out 3 days later and after fixing what he did I realized the algae growth was a quarter of what it was! Learned two things; lower light isn't always bad and always put the adult toys where kiddos can't reach them! 

I did decrease lighting time.  I have AI hydra 26 HD.  Running blues at 33%, reds 7%, green and white 4%.  Would be curious what other hydra owners run at.  I have soft and LPS

[Sherman]

Are you dosing any carbon? 

And for the light can red and green set to zero

[brianinak]

I am running carbon in mini reactor.  Not dosing it.  Is that the same or different?

[brandon429]

What about the details from the thread that you can fix your cyano in two hours flat, a fair option to consider.

 

post full tank shot for an easy custom cure.

 

 

 

all you have to do is clean the tank the right way. Then perhaps once again soon due to initial purposeful farming of cyano but after that it will stop. #of cleans is proportional to delay time in willing the tank fixed. 

 

The catch is that reefers really don’t want their invader gone, they want the invader gone using something they can do to the water, without work.

[brandon429]

Prediction before pics 

 

 

rocks are not covered

 

 

susbstrate localized invasion, signifying the feed source 

 

if rocks are covered, we can show there’s detritus pent up in them with another test. 98% of time this is sand caused from partial sandbed actions which still leave a cloudy sandbed in place.

 

substrate cannot pass a drop test in the tank, from the links in that top thread linked above. Once it can pass a drop test, no more cyano.

 

fix substrate fix the cyano. Post pics 

 

 

to beat cyano, we can choose or not to act on the whole tank at once, not the cyano. Only large tankers have to settle for a months long invasion, nano keepers can opt out of being invaded but they need massive large proof threads in place first so it doesn’t look like they’ll waste time cleaning their system. We have those threads ready for inspection, above. Sand rinse thread/two hours to fixed.

 

 

[brianinak]

Brandon429

 

Not sure how my tank would do with drop test.  I do vacuum sand bed, but could be more OCD about it

Here are some pics not sure how helpful the substrate one will be

 

I have manually removed with vinyl tubing prior to water change.

 

Do you think that adding some more nasurris snails (have 2) or hermits (have 3) helpful for cleaning the sand?

 

 

 

[brianinak]

Here is better picture.  This was taken will all light on so not influenced by blue spectrum

 

Hope this is helpful

 

 

 

[Oldsalt01]

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 11:38 PM, brianinak said:

I did decrease lighting time.  I have AI hydra 26 HD.  Running blues at 33%, reds 7%, green and white 4%.  Would be curious what other hydra owners run at.  I have soft and LPS

I run a Hydra 26 (non-hd), 20% w, 25% rb. 25% db, 10% uv (really just a purple bulb). NO reds or greens. I've read they incite nuisance algae and have had no "bad" algae form since I dropped the red and green's. And my nutrients run pretty high: Nitrate 20ppm, PO4: 0.13ppm

[brianinak]

thanks old salt

[brianinak]

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 5:14 AM, brandon429 said:

What about the details from the thread that you can fix your cyano in two hours flat, a fair option to consider.

 

post full tank shot for an easy custom cure.

 

 

 

all you have to do is clean the tank the right way. Then perhaps once again soon due to initial purposeful farming of cyano but after that it will stop. #of cleans is proportional to delay time in willing the tank fixed. 

 

The catch is that reefers really don’t want their invader gone, they want the invader gone using something they can do to the water, without work.

From what I gathered from the post you recommended was a "RIP" cleaning would take care of the problem, the origin of problem being the sand.  This is my first go at this.  I did not rinse the sand when setting up the tank.  On this line of thinking could one use a small pump and blow the sand around, allowing the mechanical filtration to filter out sand.   Would this be a viable option?  I would assume there would be risks for such an approach.  Going to research rip cleaning.  

[brianinak]

thinking of simply hitting portions of sand bed with turkey baster daily, see if has impact on the cyano.  Intent being to insure that detritus not building up, and clean the sand a bit at a time and see if protein skimmer starting pulling out more organics, would identify that sand bed is housing more nutrients that bio load can process at this time.   Worry that will spread the cyano.

 

Am I going down the right path here?

[flatlandreefer]

23 hours ago, brianinak said:

Brandon429

 

Not sure how my tank would do with drop test.  I do vacuum sand bed, but could be more OCD about it

Here are some pics not sure how helpful the substrate one will be

 

I have manually removed with vinyl tubing prior to water change.

 

Do you think that adding some more nasurris snails (have 2) or hermits (have 3) helpful for cleaning the sand?

 

 

 

 

Are these current pics of your tank??? If so there is no cyano invasion, it actually looks pretty clean.  My advice to keeping cyano in check is to vacuum your sand well during water changes, you will figure out where detritus tends to collect.  I would also suggest using a turkey baster to keep sand bed stirred during the week and blowing rock work off between water changes.  It is not uncommon to have a few patches of cyano pop up here and there even in established tanks. 

[brianinak]

1 hour ago, flatlandreefer said:

 

Are these current pics of your tank??? If so there is no cyano invasion, it actually looks pretty clean.  My advice to keeping cyano in check is to vacuum your sand well during water changes, you will figure out where detritus tends to collect.  I would also suggest using a turkey baster to keep sand bed stirred during the week and blowing rock work off between water changes.  It is not uncommon to have a few patches of cyano pop up here and there even in established tanks. 

Yep current pics.  The cyano is gaining ground.  I am trying to stay ahead of it, before it becomes an infestation.  I like your suggestions and should be part of daily routine.  blasting the rocks and sand.  

[xthunt]

I had some aggressive stringy red cyano until a few days ago. Had it for months, transferred when I changed from Nuvo 20 to Lagoon 25, I think it came in from some GSP I got locally. Even with NO fish, NO feeding, using RODI, carbon+skimmer+phosguard, new dry rock, new dry sand, having enough movement to blow sand, vacuuming sand, adjusting lighting, 3 days lights off... it still grew daily even with physical removal. I have no idea how the stuff was growing, or what it was using to grow. Chemiclean and h2o2 did nothing to it. I've been sitting on some API erythromycin for a while, nervous to use it. I finally threw in the towel, removed carbon and turned off skimmer, and dosed half dose (1 packet) at night for 2 days - changed 4 gallons the 3rd night - and dosed 1/2 packet for nights 4 and 5. I'm on night 5 right now, I will change 4 more gallons night 6, and return all filtration on night 7. The cyano is destroyed. I mean all that's left is tiny bits of dead gray cyano here and there, but tank looks brand new. Hopefully it stays gone and gets the hint. Didn't affect the fish I have now. Only thing I notice with corals is the xenia looks a little upset, and 1 or 2 zoa frags look upset. 

[Sherman]

On 12/8/2017 at 2:07 PM, brianinak said:

I am running carbon in mini reactor.  Not dosing it.  Is that the same or different?

Different. You dosing vinegar or sugar or other carbon source to reduce nitrate.

If you are dosing carbon please stop for a week.

Also siphon as much of the cynao out as possible.

Are you running skimmer?

If have skim wet

And try to increase PO4 to above 0,02 but less then 0.08

Zero PO4 is bad

[brianinak]

14 minutes ago, Sherman said:

Different. You dosing vinegar or sugar or other carbon source to reduce nitrate.

If you are dosing carbon please stop for a week.

Also siphon as much of the cynao out as possible.

Are you running skimmer?

If have skim wet

And try to increase PO4 to above 0,02 but less then 0.08

Zero PO4 is bad

 

 

Not dosing anything

siphon it out regularly

running skimmer, wet skimming very light tea color

Using the hanna low range phosphate.  Never have gotten anything other than 0.00.

nitrate between 2 and 5 red sea.

 

 

[Sherman]

Try to feed your coral and fishes. Usually the feed has PO4.

Are you running any phos remover like rowa or any other brand?

If you are running phos remover stop a day or 2 for the PO4 to build up