Controlled entropy's IM Nuvo Fusion 20 - Everything is dying, is it too hot?

[n00b_nuvo]

On 12/21/2017 at 9:11 PM, controlledentropy said:

Don't kill me.

 

A few days... Cycled with Biospira and ammonia. Frags were supposed to arrive in the 2nd week of Jan, but someone canceled their order and a spot opened up, so the shop called me to see if I want them today.

 

I guess we will see if this will be a mistake or not by January.

LOL, I was JW. I hope the frags are doing well, though!

[controlledentropy]

3 hours ago, n00b_nuvo said:

LOL, I was JW. I hope the frags are doing well, though!

They actually are doing well. 

 

The only one that I have 0 ideas about would be the Lepto. 

[controlledentropy]

When I first got this frag, there is a side of the stick that was fully white. I thought, being dumb, "Oh that must be the side that was not exposed to the light. Maybe it was at a corner."

 

Right now, I am still using the acclimation mode on my Hydra and the Acro is at the top part of the tank. Today I saw, the flesh started to fray apart near the white side, but they are fine in other parts. How do I stop this?

 

The other SPS, the Montipora is doing well. It is happy at its spot, all the red polyps are out.

 

Other frags are doing well too (maybe the Lepto is not, I have 0 clue as to whether its happy or not). The Acans are fleshy and the Paly opens up.

[Nixperience]

29 minutes ago, controlledentropy said:

When I first got this frag, there is a side of the stick that was fully white. I thought, being dumb, "Oh that must be the side that was not exposed to the light. Maybe it was at a corner."

 

Right now, I am still using the acclimation mode on my Hydra and the Acro is at the top part of the tank. Today I saw, the flesh started to fray apart near the white side, but they are fine in other parts. How do I stop this?

 

The other SPS, the Montipora is doing well. It is happy at its spot, all the red polyps are out.

 

Other frags are doing well too (maybe the Lepto is not, I have 0 clue as to whether its happy or not). The Acans are fleshy and the Paly opens up.

I think the only thing you can do is move it to the bottom and hope it can recover, but you can’t save em all. At least it’s a tiny frag and not a big colony. 

[controlledentropy]

Just now, Nixperience said:

I think the only thing you can do is move it to the bottom and hope it can recover, but you can’t save em all. At least it’s a tiny frag and not a big colony. 

Do you think dipping it in CoralRX can help?

[cobra2326]

17 hours ago, controlledentropy said:

Do you think dipping it in CoralRX can help?

I don’t have much experience with this, but usually it’s recommended that you take frags of the good parts. Make sure where you frag is all good flesh with no peeling.

 

This looks like STN/RTN. Is your Alk within range and stable? Any parameter swings? It may be struggling to acclimate too. High alk, salinity or temp can be a problem if it came from a tank that was much lower. It’s not too little light, and probably not too much. 

[controlledentropy]

6 hours ago, cobra2326 said:

I don’t have much experience with this, but usually it’s recommended that you take frags of the good parts. Make sure where you frag is all good flesh with no peeling.

 

This looks like STN/RTN. Is your Alk within range and stable? Any parameter swings? It may be struggling to acclimate too. High alk, salinity or temp can be a problem if it came from a tank that was much lower. It’s not too little light, and probably not too much. 

Thanks for the tip. I won't be fragging it because I have no supplies, plus, I think its too late now. 

 

I tested my water again today. What is so weird is that Alk had shot up while Ca went down a bit. How can this be? There is nothing in the tank, apart from the tiny 6 frags that consume the Ca. And the Alk? Ugh. Why did it increase? I use an ATO and I know it works because I had been tracking my water level.

 

I attribute this to the test kit. I am horribly bad in determining the color. They all look the same to me, especially the Alk test.

 

 

I saw your tank. Wow, so many nice Acros. What are your parameters and how long had it been running? I noticed that you don't have mobile animals in your tank (no fish/shrimp), is there a reason for this? I intend to keep the nutrient as low as possible in mine.

 

[Mariaface]

@Polarcollision just schooled me on how raising pH can bring available alk up. Maybe you opened up windows?  

[controlledentropy]

2 minutes ago, Mariaface said:

@Polarcollision just schooled me on how raising pH can bring available alk up. Maybe you opened up windows?  

Wait, what? That can happen? Interesting. It is definitely possible. Because I always open up the windows to prevent winter stuffiness.

 

But, Alk swinging up is not harmful as swinging down right?

[Mariaface]

1 minute ago, controlledentropy said:

Wait, what? That can happen? Interesting. It is definitely possible. Because I always open up the windows to prevent winter stuffiness.

 

But, Alk swinging up is not harmful as swinging down right?

 

I would say the opposite - swinging down isn't too bad, but swinging up before corals can 'adjust' and without nutrients can cause tip burning especially.. But a swing of 1dKH throughout the day wouldn't be too bad, right? You'd just have to check and see that it isn't happening within an hour?

[controlledentropy]

8 minutes ago, Mariaface said:

 

I would say the opposite - swinging down isn't too bad, but swinging up before corals can 'adjust' and without nutrients can cause tip burning especially.. But a swing of 1dKH throughout the day wouldn't be too bad, right? You'd just have to check and see that it isn't happening within an hour?

My last check was at night. Today's test was during the day. Now it makes sense. pH decreases as night, reducing Alk.

 

Maybe the Acro frag I got was not good, to begin with. One side of it was fully white which I thought was from bleaching and underexposure to light. (Yes, blame the retailer. )

[cobra2326]

On 12/25/2017 at 3:48 PM, controlledentropy said:

My last check was at night. Today's test was during the day. Now it makes sense. pH decreases as night, reducing Alk.

 

Maybe the Acro frag I got was not good, to begin with. One side of it was fully white which I thought was from bleaching and underexposure to light. (Yes, blame the retailer. )

Yeah, testing at the same time every day is a good idea. Also, make sure things make sense before making adjustments based on test kits. It's rare for Alk to increase without any additions, although it can happen. I'd confirm the result of your test kit before making changes which could affect your tank.

[Polarcollision]

Hey there, congrats on the new tank! Your setup looks awesome! And I love your choice of corals.

 

I didn't see white on the acro in the shot of them lined up against the glass. It actually looked decently healthy to me, but I'm only seeing one side so I'll take your word for it. In a later pic, the lacing and falling away of flesh is what they do when the water isn't able to support them. You can tell how upset an acro is by the blotchy brown and pale areas. That can sometimes be saved if the cause is corrected immediately. If you ever get the lacy flesh or any part of the skeleton showing, cut it off, sometimes back 1/4 to 1/2 inch into the healthy flesh. I'm guessing I'm too late to offer suggestions for that frag though. I'm sorry for the shipping snafu.

 

So it is actually possible for your alk test to read higher without dosing alk, though this technicality is more something to keep in the back of your mind when interpreting and maintaining alk and ca test results. It's tied to the carbonate buffer system that is so universal to life that it is also one of 3 primary buffering systems in our own bodies. It's also the most important buffering system because of how quickly it can absorb rapid pH changes that happen at the cellular/molecular level of 'living' and growth. Say you test your aquarium at night and get pH 7.8 and alk 7.2, and let's also say for sake of simplicity that your alk dosing matches 100% the rate it is taken up and converted to stony skeleton. Then the next morning you test your aquarium and get a pH of 8.3 and alk 8.6. Kinda exaggerated for effect (actual ratios are on p38 of my thread), but you're likely scratching your head with drawn eyebrows and a sideways look at me wondering how that's possible. So what's happened is that the extra H+ ions created from living and growth throughout the day have been dumped into the water column, which the buffering system absorbs, which we measure as a lower alk result and a lower pH. The alk isn't gone, it's just in a form that the test result doesn't include. Once the H+ ions are dealt with, often overnight, the same buffer will convert back to the other state and alk will read higher again as will pH. For clarity, This is not the same as what I call an alk/pH swing where alkalinity is added to the water. Corals are adapted to these daily Alk/pH swings but not as well to the kind from dosing alk/ca/mg. The takeaway is that for growth, we want to target the buffering system levels to always have enough carbonate available for stony coral to build their skeletons and we want to ensure that there's enough alkalinity buffering in the water to prevent pH from dropping so low that coral suffer. By maintaining ideal Ca, Mg, Alk, etc, we never chase pH, but we do control pH indirectly. For myself, I run my lights high and my nutrients high, which means I should keep CO3 available for that growth. So I have always targeted alk slightly higher than the ratios in the graph on p38 on my thread just to cover all the fluctuation causes: high CO2 from winter and house closed up, high H+ from daily growth, me not noticing the dosing container running out, etc.

 

Here's a very technical article with a good reference article to help keep your corals happy: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

RHF recommends keeping stable parameters somewhere within these ranges for healthy coral: alk between 7-11 and Ca between 380 and 450.

 

Swinging up or down is OK when it's over weeks and within the ranges above. I've accidentally had my tank as low as 4.5 alk with absolutely no change to SPS coral coloration, etc. I assume because it happened so gradually. It's when I get a swing up to 10 or 11 or a rapid rise that acros RTN on me.

[controlledentropy]

1 hour ago, Polarcollision said:

Hey there, congrats on the new tank! Your setup looks awesome! And I love your choice of corals.

 

I didn't see white on the acro in the shot of them lined up against the glass. It actually looked decently healthy to me, but I'm only seeing one side so I'll take your word for it. In a later pic, the lacing and falling away of flesh is what they do when the water isn't able to support them. You can tell how upset an acro is by the blotchy brown and pale areas. That can sometimes be saved if the cause is corrected immediately. If you ever get the lacy flesh or any part of the skeleton showing, cut it off, sometimes back 1/4 to 1/2 inch into the healthy flesh. I'm guessing I'm too late to offer suggestions for that frag though. I'm sorry for the shipping snafu.

 

So it is actually possible for your alk test to read higher without dosing alk, though this technicality is more something to keep in the back of your mind when interpreting and maintaining alk and ca test results. It's tied to the carbonate buffer system that is so universal to life that it is also one of 3 primary buffering systems in our own bodies. It's also the most important buffering system because of how quickly it can absorb rapid pH changes that happen at the cellular/molecular level of 'living' and growth. Say you test your aquarium at night and get pH 7.8 and alk 7.2, and let's also say for sake of simplicity that your alk dosing matches 100% the rate it is taken up and converted to stony skeleton. Then the next morning you test your aquarium and get a pH of 8.3 and alk 8.6. Kinda exaggerated for effect (actual ratios are on p38 of my thread), but you're likely scratching your head with drawn eyebrows and a sideways look at me wondering how that's possible. So what's happened is that the extra H+ ions created from living and growth throughout the day have been dumped into the water column, which the buffering system absorbs, which we measure as a lower alk result and a lower pH. The alk isn't gone, it's just in a form that the test result doesn't include. Once the H+ ions are dealt with, often overnight, the same buffer will convert back to the other state and alk will read higher again as will pH. For clarity, This is not the same as what I call an alk/pH swing where alkalinity is added to the water. Corals are adapted to these daily Alk/pH swings but not as well to the kind from dosing alk/ca/mg. The takeaway is that for growth, we want to target the buffering system levels to always have enough carbonate available for stony coral to build their skeletons and we want to ensure that there's enough alkalinity buffering in the water to prevent pH from dropping so low that coral suffer. By maintaining ideal Ca, Mg, Alk, etc, we never chase pH, but we do control pH indirectly. For myself, I run my lights high and my nutrients high, which means I should keep CO3 available for that growth. So I have always targeted alk slightly higher than the ratios in the graph on p38 on my thread just to cover all the fluctuation causes: high CO2 from winter and house closed up, high H+ from daily growth, me not noticing the dosing container running out, etc.

 

Here's a very technical article with a good reference article to help keep your corals happy: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

RHF recommends keeping stable parameters somewhere within these ranges for healthy coral: alk between 7-11 and Ca between 380 and 450.

 

Swinging up or down is OK when it's over weeks and within the ranges above. I've accidentally had my tank as low as 4.5 alk with absolutely no change to SPS coral coloration, etc. I assume because it happened so gradually. It's when I get a swing up to 10 or 11 or a rapid rise that acros RTN on me.

I will try to get another acro (cheap test acro) to see if my system is ready for them. Planning to go to my LFS next week. It seems from the last time I tested my water, the Ca and Alk are within the recommended ranges in that article from Advanced Aquarist. My montipora frag is doing well in the tank, all of its polyps are fully out during the day. The acans are fleshy and even the one that was deflated is now fleshy because I moved it from the sand bed and the sand couldn't get into its mouth anymore.

 

I have also been doing a 5-gallon water change for the past 3 days. I am sure this is more than 100% of the total water volume. I did this because of the high nitrate in my system. When I cycled the tank I used pure ammonia and BioSpira, and the bacteria did a good job in converting all the ammonia to nitrate overnight.

 

Will do the water test again today.

[controlledentropy]

Happy New Year!

 

The tank is in its ugly phase right now, with brown diatoms everywhere; on the glass, rocks, and sand bed. But this is good as I know that the cycle is coming along.

 

All my first settlers are doing well. Opening up as usual.

 

The green micromussa is healing. I think when the store fragged it, they split one of its head.

 

This other micromussa is opening up, but for some reason, it looks bad. Maybe it's the light because this is the morning and the LED turned on at 12 p.m. 

 

The paly is sprouting a second head. Eeeeeek. I am so excited. My first baby.

 

The leptoseris is starting to have its edges on the rock.

 

As usual, my favorite, superman montipora is happy.

 

Got myself a new pump on Boxing Day. Its quiet and stronger than the stock pump. Hopefully, I can make some SPS happy.

 

Finally, got some new frags. Worried about one of them, there was a white spot near its bottom, the other two look good. They are supposed to be green, purple and pink. The purple one is the one I am worried about.

 

 

This is the one that's worrying me. 

 

Floated the bag for 2 hours, and water acclimated them for half an hour, plus, I dipped them in 1ml of Coral Rx.

[controlledentropy]

Ok, it had been a few hours since I dropped them in the tank and now, all of their polyps are out and swaying in the current.

 

So far so good and I hope it stays that way. Fingers crossed.

[controlledentropy]

Well, I spoke too soon. As soon as I stepped back into my bedroom, I recognized a smell. When my 1st acro frag died, it had the same smell.

 

Lo and behold, like clockwork, that purple acro with the white spot started RTNing.

 

 

[jorahx]

what does it smell like? i put one in my tank a few weeks ago and it was open for 2 days and hasnt opened since

[controlledentropy]

32 minutes ago, jorahx said:

what does it smell like? i put one in my tank a few weeks ago and it was open for 2 days and hasnt opened since

Hard to explain. But it does smell.

[Polarcollision]

Sorry to hear about the purple acro. They're definitely among the toughest corals to keep. May I suggest holding off on more for a few months? I suspect that starting a tank with dry rock is prolonging the settling in of the microbiome and stability acros need. A lot happens to tanks in the first 6 months in regard to the microbiome and your tank is just hitting the diatom phase, burning through silica. Next is hair algae and cyano. And then the rocks will start to turn brown, green, and purple. That's when you'll start to have more help from your tank with acros. Don't give up.

[controlledentropy]

45 minutes ago, Polarcollision said:

Sorry to hear about the purple acro. They're definitely among the toughest corals to keep. May I suggest holding off on more for a few months? I suspect that starting a tank with dry rock is prolonging the settling in of the microbiome and stability acros need. A lot happens to tanks in the first 6 months in regard to the microbiome and your tank is just hitting the diatom phase, burning through silica. Next is hair algae and cyano. And then the rocks will start to turn brown, green, and purple. That's when you'll start to have more help from your tank with acros. Don't give up.

Is the purple acros the hard one? I think its some sort of deep water acro, which is the hardest type.

 

The millipora and the other fuzzy acro are doing fine (I hope). Its the one with the velvety skin that keeps on dying.

 

Yeah, I am not going to spend another 20 dollars for an acro. Might as well hold off for now and maybe get some palys or zoas. The one I have is already sprouting another head

[jorahx]

4 minutes ago, controlledentropy said:

Is the purple acros the hard one? I think its some sort of deep water acro, which is the hardest type.

 

The millipora and the other fuzzy acro are doing fine (I hope). Its the one with the velvety skin that keeps on dying.

 

Yeah, I am not going to spend another 20 dollars for an acro. Might as well hold off for now and maybe get some palys or zoas. The one I have is already sprouting another head

 

just grow out your palys and than trade for acro's later

[controlledentropy]

This is RAPID.

 

Within 24 hours, this is how it looks like now. I moved the plug away from the neigboring millepora, just in case it sends a chemical signal for the millepora to start dying too. I fragged 2 good branches, not sure how successful it will be. But hey, what can I lose.

 

 

[MortalWombat]

On 12/25/2017 at 2:00 PM, controlledentropy said:

Thanks for the tip. I won't be fragging it because I have no supplies, plus, I think its too late now. 

 

I tested my water again today. What is so weird is that Alk had shot up while Ca went down a bit. How can this be? There is nothing in the tank, apart from the tiny 6 frags that consume the Ca. And the Alk? Ugh. Why did it increase? I use an ATO and I know it works because I had been tracking my water level.

 

I attribute this to the test kit. I am horribly bad in determining the color. They all look the same to me, especially the Alk test.

 

 

I saw your tank. Wow, so many nice Acros. What are your parameters and how long had it been running? I noticed that you don't have mobile animals in your tank (no fish/shrimp), is there a reason for this? I intend to keep the nutrient as low as possible in mine.

 

I too am terrible at reading the colors on test kits (I'm colorblind- daltonic). I use Hanna test kits wherever possible, they are probably worth the investment if you're going into the world of SPS. Best of luck!

[cobra2326]

Do you know what the parameters were for the tank it came from? Temperature, Alk and Nutrients are very important, light also.

 

Why are you having trouble determining the color on your Alk kit? I use the Salifert kit and it's pretty clear when a color change happens. Stability is more important than an absolute number, anyway. 

 

Your tank is very young, but I had SPS in mine immediately (although not the more difficult ones). They grew slow, but I didn't have issues with RTN. However, my numbers were stable, at least within 1 dKH.