The secret to algae control in the nano reef: stop growing your invaders on purpose. i dare you to post a challenge

[brandon429]

Check any other large tank forum...reefcentral, r2r, all have constant posts and pics of dino invasions that cause entire tanks to be taken down and lost

 

Three hundred pages of concerns, we've none.

 

Prorocentrum

Ostreopsis et al

 

Probs for large reef forums

 

Nano reef forums do not show same statistics.... Why do you think?

 

Check our picos forum here, I think that's even better references due to zero issues for the life of the whole forum

 

Ergo, the smaller the reef the better we control invasions? Gimme your musings pls. People with large, stable tanks need your collective help

 

 

When has a reef algae thread ever been presented like a behavioral intervention thread before?

Whether or not this is offensive to accept, an internal locus of control and responsibility, I predict tough love will fix your reef and anything I have you do to your reef, mine's already had it done and cataloged for us to see. no hypocrites

 

my reefbowl is all tough love, and it rose to the occasion. ur turn

 

This one is the first total responsibility for our invasions thread, all others have been kid gloved. this thread is so accountability heavy it'll be a bit painful. after pics w shine or we'll close up shop.

 

 

I bet them afterpics, from the brave, will shine going off whats already there in other threads. this gets the 2.0 version, for 2018. The intent along with after pics is to enable those who allowed an invasion to proceed to never do that again, technique change, so we can beat any other forum regarding # of invaded tanks that are currently under challenge.

 

Nano reefers usually have no excuse to be invaded, since there are already documented ways to be uninvaded, fast, without delay.

 

As soon as a challenge tank is posted, only the most reliable and direct and non hesitating means w be used...and I don't mean against the tank

 

 those who farm algae on purpose must come to terms, unless they want it that way.

 

I still love everyone who posts here, its algae boot camp.

 

 

as long as you are not using organic sludge as topoff water, Ill never ask to see your nutrients and your clean up crews and your parameters and we'll never need to ID something, because all of that is jive delay.

[brandon429]

This post might inevitably bring out a challenge that needs beating so we can continue that standard, post em if you got em. We'll clean the sandbed, rinse the rocks, and begin the retake.

 

those with complete interstice loading of an invader signifying a massive delay will need to follow protocol pretty darn strictly to graduate camp.

 

 

Sand rinse thread posted later will cure every form of non anchored invader.

 

 

The rasping technique will cure every form of anchored invader, and to not choose them, is to choose to be invaded and that's ok if someone wants to be invaded. The latest thread titles indicate otherwise, that people don't want to remain invaded but are...toughlove coming + after pics of a non invaded tank.

[jahnje]

I'm pretty sure it has to do with the ability to do high percentage water changes.  The cons of a nano or pico tank arr that the entire system can be very unstable and change quickly. The pros for a nano are the the entire system can be changed quickly.   To effect quick change in a large system requires a teardown, and rebuild,  with a nano, that can almost be our  regular maintenance. And with a pico, it is... I can do a 100% WC every day on my 5L and use less resources than a 50% once a month water change on a 75G.  My thought's are that in the nano world, true pristine water conditions are achievable. Whereas in the large tank world, you can only push them in that direction. 

 

but I'm new at this whole marine thing, so that's just what I've experienced so far.  

[HarryPotter]

In a smaller tank you can change 50% of the water in minutes.... mix up the entire sand bed, and shake all the rock work. Big tanks you can’t do that regularly enough IMO.

 

[Clown79]

I've noticed a trend now with larger tanks:

 

Less frequency of waterchanges

No sand vacuuming 

Filter sponge uses

 

On all those forums if you do a search on tank transfers or moves - they all advise a cycle occurring, they don't advise washing or changing sand beds as it will cause a cycle, they don't advise sand vacuuming.

 

I think it's old school methods of maintenance that may be leading them to their own demise.

[brandon429]

Agree one hundred percent. This is now linked here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/page-81

 

 

Over the next year, let's compare and contrast these threads. Prediction: in one year nano reefs are still dino free, the occasional tank needs substrate cleaning to win, repeated a few times and no recurring patterns

 

That's not being mean, and no I don't want to put a shot of proro in my reef to test my own medicine heh, it's an analysis of the last five years regarding dino invasions-why would the next twelve mos be different

 

Something shocking exists in the care habits between these two groups of reefers who deal mainly in volume differences but source their dinos from the same random fish stores and trades

 

I do think our nanos get dinos occasionally by import

 

It's just they're unwelcomed better, we're not hands off. Cycles are for bacteria, not purposefully seeding our tanks with successions of invaders yes yes.

[Boggers]

My 60G has had battles with Cyano, but not Dino's. I know it is my own laziness when it flairs up as well. 2 - 15% water changes 4 days apart and sand vacuuming usually cures it.

 

I truly believe the goal of 0 water changes but not following the other needed steps to do that bite them in the long run. There are also more LRS (Lazy Reefer syndrome) cases on the large tank side.

[seabass]

Brandon, that's an interesting observation; I never put that together.  I fought with dinos on my 100 gallon tank before.  I know it was my fault that I let the tank get away from me.  It seems to be an invader that is better off dealt with more drastic measures (often not practical in a large reef tank).

[brandon429]

close tracking in that big thread shows how passionate they are about actually dosing nutrients to the system, N and P, to boost the competitors which will destroy the dinos

 

the large tankers who cannot rip clean simply must find another route, this could be considered a fair plague on large tankers over the last few years. as these various threads build and we catch/watch for trends, im simply seeing that nano reefers don't post enduring challenges with them very often, we had a couple rascals from PolarCOllision in the big peroxide thread I recall (UV helped) but its the big tankers that literally require 200 pages of mulling options to gain somewhat of a compliance

 

being aggressive cleaners seems to be the main difference imo, its what Id do if I ever saw the dreaded brown bubbles. Being full up on corals helps; by not continually reintroducing a plague one can expect to remain dino free regardless of lighting changes or sandbed storms or nutrient profiles. the time it takes for us to quit adding frags is closely associated with the various invaders we see imo

 

[seabass]

I'd also be interested in the length of time these two different types of tanks are running.  I feel that us nano reefers tend to break down their tanks, upgrade, downsize, upsize, and transfer more frequently than "the large tankers".  Of course there are people like you that have had a small tank running for a decade.  But would the running date reset when you rip it clean?  Hypothetically speaking.

 

Sometimes I feel that truly mature tanks (with a vast biodiversity) are most resilient of all.  Other times we can see the results of the build up of organics  on the rocks and in the substrate.  Maybe it's the biodiversity that makes the difference (or maintenance, filtration, or flow, etc).  Ripping clean the substrate can deal with the built up organics, but it does sacrifice some biodiversity.

 

IDK, just thinking out loud.  Interesting topic.

[brandon429]

agreed and Paul B would agree w that too, Its the chief reason he's claiming to be immune to fish diseases and dinos without any form of support. also agreed on the reset date/age claims based around rip cleanings

 

I ran reefbowl 1 like that, only wc and nothing deep, and lost it to red gelidium. never again / burn me once / now I go peroxide crazy forever type of thing.

 

I now do only what causes coral mass and all else goes to the wayside. if my reef is only 2 weeks old (last date of rip cleaning) Im ok with that now  my pride only centers around making the 8 lb brain coral rock into a 9 pounder. I can never lose that much money and time again, RB1 was like 4 when I lost it/dang it/I listened to the hands off water tinkering options back then.

[Friendly]

dino invasions? I've not heard about nor seen any T-Rex, Raptors, Dilophisaurus, or others running around?

 

I'm confused...  

[seabass]

[seabass]

I think it's obvious why we only see dinos in larger tanks.

[SaltyBuddha]

One other factor is that nano people may notice these nuisance algaes quicker. I'm looking my 10 gallon over everyday. Checking each coral and the LR. I notice minute changes and growths. I don't catch everything right away, but I have a much better chance than if it was a 100 gallon tank. 

 

I would imagine the ease of maintenence (compared to larger tanks) is the biggest factor. Less equipment to maintain as well.

[Pinner Reef]

I got them... It was horrible. (Click the link in my sig) But I agree with the others that in our little tanks we are much more vigilant and can make more drastic changes when we feel necessary.

[brandon429]

I remember not all of them were slam dunk one weekend fixes. our P thread was worked a few good pages with something we felt were dinos off standard tank pics (cheap Amazon scopes not being used back then, we never got scope pics at 100x) and the nanos were biggish too, say around 30+ gals so there was always that partial action tendency

 

Rip cleaning even a fifteen gallon over and over isn't easy compared to today's 1-2 gals

 

 

 

the UV gave us a little help/edge And the truth is, it's hard to get updates continually for post analysis due to various reasons 

 

it's been interesting to see how many posted sandbed invasions here are not typically something we lose tanks over. 

 

 

 

 

[ajm83]

I had dinos across 3 tanks 

 

First a pico (19L - spec V) then a 55L then an 85L. 

 

Here's how it started in my pico:

 

 

It was identified incorrectly as cyano and diatoms numerous times, but I finally confirmed it was dinos using a microscope.

 

The thing is, I used all new equipment and transferred no livestock between the 55 litre and the 85, so I firmly believe it was my methods causing the issue.  Mainly that I kept reading you want 0/0 for nitrate/phosphate,  so I ran rowa/phosguard, fed very sparingly and used large water changes to keep nutrients extremely low.  I also regularly vac'd and turkey basted out all detritus. 

 

My personal opinion is that dinos are present in small numbers in every tank, but keeping the tank too clean means you don't get the proper ecosystem set up which normally keeps them in check.  

 

And the reason why it is more commonly seen in larger tanks - well I guess it is more common to use vodka/vinegar/sugar, rowaphos reactors to drive nutrients very low.  Tools we often don't have the room for in our little (and generally sumpless) tanks.

[brandon429]

I’d feel icky if we don’t see the after pics of a clean system  and those are really good before pics. It was the sustained, unbeatable invasions taking months with hardly a win i was hoping to draw a line in the sand around

 

did you beat the invasion 

[vlangel]

Hhmmm, this is an interesting topic and I have mused on it myself, (since dinos strike terror in the heart of a reefer).  I am an old school reefer, (or perhaps I am just old, ha ha!) and I have set up 5 tanks in my 25+ years of reefing and have never had dinos. (I am not counting my little contest pico jar since its not been up long enough to contribute data yet).   I have only had cyano once and it was the one time I set up a tank with a SSB.  My tanks ranged from 36 gallons up to 125 gallons.  All my tanks were up for a minimum of 3 years with 5 years being more common.

 

I will name a few common denominators in my tanks that I think may be factors to them being dino-free.

 

1.  I have always used live rock.

I worked at a well respected pet store in the late 90s until 2011.  At one point I serviced 23 tanks for this store.  Not a one of them ever had dinos.  My boss was very knowledgable about fish and coral.  He felt live rock started a tank off with the most bio-diversity at the onset when an immature system is most vulnerable.  Yes, you risked introducing pesky hitchhikers but those could be dealt with swiftly in the beginning if the reefer was vigilant.

 

2. I am a fan of deep sand beds.

I will qualify that I have not utilize DSBs in my seahorse tanks where the food waste is excessive and the ponies are vulnerable to bacterial infections.  In all other instances however, I have found DSBs to be minimum maintenance of just dancing my fingers through the top half inch whenever I cleaned the glass.  The live rock seeds the sandbed and that life maintains the sandbed.   I know folks are afraid of the sandbed getting poisoned and killing the tank and I am not saying it does not happen but I have never seen it.  When I tore down or tranferred my tanks, (the last one was 4 or 5 years old) and that sand smelled fresh and clean like the beach.  I have a friend with a 15 year old tank way overstocked with predator fish, (that are enormous now) that have been way overfed for 15 years.  Her tank has a DSB and live rock.

 

3. I set my tanks up with a sump with a refugium.  A fuge is not only a place to grow and harvest macro algae for export of nutrients, but its a safe haven for the creatures that make up the bio-diversity to colonize without predation.  Well, unless you move your rogue crab from the display to be banished to the sump, LOL.  Many of the tanks that I serviced for the petstore did not even have skimmers and only had sumps with fuges, including my friends 15 year old predator tank.

 

4.  Faithful, regimented water changes.

My boss was very anal about tank maintenance and especially water changes.  Before I worked at this store I was like many of us and not very consistent about water changes.  However after seeing tanks serviced by our store have fish that were 10+ years old I became a believer in maintenance and especially water changes.

 

I am not saying this is a sure cure against dinos but all my tanks plus the petstores tanks and all the ones I serviced, not a one of them ever had dinos.  I had never even heard of dinos until 2012 when I began to join fish forums.  So for what its worth, that is my experience.

 

 

 

[brandon429]

Well said for sure

 

the first time I heard of or saw dinos was about 2005 at a pet store I never ever saw them in the 90s

 

makes me wonder how the heck the hobby was going for nearly 15 yrs ish before that without em

 

we must’ve sourced em from some strange biome out there and then / poof hobby is changed 

 

my bestie Maritza the vase reef is a non bed rinser with total success and no dinos or t rexes in the tank 

 

they ask why I try to get people to tap rinse the beds they built up over time even without a prob, I’ve found an answer that acknowledges success with the alternative as well as my own detritus ocd...control of variables. It’s not that I think true DSB setups are bad, it’s that theyre open to variation. Varying people and tanks and lighting systems and vector details all add up to varying degrees of invasion

 

but preventative rinsers across twenty examples (the sand rinse thread) have none no matter the details. An invader can’t adapt to physical force 

 

if my own home variations allowed for detritus storage and no cyano I’d be doing less work... and the bed would be a visual antbed of success with entertaining worms and pods etc but my long term DSB studies (before I was a rinser, we all start with hands off) simply showed nice colored coralline, a couple worms lol, and tons of cloud 

 

by keeping that out I simply have no chance of invasion, mass potentiation etc. I’m willing to trade the work to ensure a bowl this old doesn’t act up 

 

 

even my current system will allow me to stop rinsing for years I’d predict but I can’t risk it, 12 yrs is too established to risk and I simply rinse to hedge my safety bets since we know bare bottom aquariums still grow coral fine, a rinsed bed has the same impact as no bed. For sure being limited to one gallon total volume changes things, no way to plumb a diverse refugium

 

agreed on your diversity clues and Paul B says the same thing about his system and clearly he is Dino and ich free following none of the consistent tank care norms 

 

i find that a well behaved non rinse system is the ideal, but a rinsed system can be forced into compliance without fail for the continually unlucky ~ 

 

 

[brandon429]

Ajm we gotta see after pics or at least earn them right here  our Bros at r2r are like bring it then, little tankers. First prediction made from pics: if we reached in and grabbed a handfull of that sand, and dropped it down, it would cloud the whole tank with dinoflagellate food. Did ya reverse that 

[ajm83]

32 minutes ago, brandon429 said:

I’d feel icky if we don’t see the after pics of a clean system  and those are really good before pics. It was the sustained, unbeatable invasions taking months with hardly a win i was hoping to draw a line in the sand around

 

did you beat the invasion 

Yeah I just about beat them but it took a long time, actually nearly two years in total. Very nearly jacked it in a number of times. 

I still get a small amount showing up on occasion, and invariably I'll test the water and find nitrate/phosphate both showing zero.   Cheeky dose of KNO3 and they'll go again for a while.

 

Don't have a good current pic, this was taken while moving to a sump hence loads of stuff in the tank, corals randomly placed etc. But as you can see, clean sand, no dinos, corals alive. 

 

[brandon429]

If it’s beaten that’s great and yep that’s sharp reef  very nice. That’s using the modern methods they use on larger tanks, nutrient boosting vs sequestration that’s a good reinforcement of options if someone prefers to keep the sandbed biology in tact. You got our first set of before n afters nice work and doc

[vlangel]

46 minutes ago, brandon429 said:

Well said for sure

 

the first time I heard of or saw dinos was about 2005 at a pet store I never ever saw them in the 90s

 

makes me wonder how the heck the hobby was going for nearly 15 yrs ish before that without em

 

we must’ve sourced em from some strange biome out there and then / poof hobby is changed 

 

my bestie Maritza the vase reef is a non bed rinser with total success and no dinos or t rexes in the tank 

 

they ask why I try to get people to tap rinse the beds they built up over time even without a prob, I’ve found an answer that acknowledges success with the alternative as well as my own detritus ocd...control of variables. It’s not that I think true DSB setups are bad, it’s that theyre open to variation. Varying people and tanks and lighting systems and vector details all add up to varying degrees of invasion

 

but preventative rinsers across twenty examples (the sand rinse thread) have none no matter the details. An invader can’t adapt to physical force 

 

if my own home variations allowed for detritus storage and no cyano I’d be doing less work... and the bed would be a visual antbed of success with entertaining worms and pods etc but my long term DSB studies (before I was a rinser, we all start with hands off) simply showed nice colored coralline, a couple worms lol, and tons of cloud 

 

by keeping that out I simply have no chance of invasion, mass potentiation etc. I’m willing to trade the work to ensure a bowl this old doesn’t act up 

 

 

even my current system will allow me to stop rinsing for years I’d predict but I can’t risk it, 12 yrs is too established to risk and I simply rinse to hedge my safety bets since we know bare bottom aquariums still grow coral fine, a rinsed bed has the same impact as no bed. For sure being limited to one gallon total volume changes things, no way to plumb a diverse refugium

 

agreed on your diversity clues and Paul B says the same thing about his system and clearly he is Dino and ich free following none of the consistent tank care norms 

 

i find that a well behaved non rinse system is the ideal, but a rinsed system can be forced into compliance without fail for the continually unlucky ~ 

 

 

Yep, I am in full agreement with you brandon.  When I set up my little jar pico I broke all my rules.  I used only dry dead rock and no sandbed at all.  I know my rock structure with coral on it wont come back out of the jar.  I want some animals:  shrimp, crabs and maybe even a goby which is the only reason I don't have sand and am not using your flush with tap water method.  I am counting on the the heavy feeding followed by a 100% WC several hours later to deal with the nutrients in this little system.  I did put a ball of cheato from my sump to hopefully seed this jar pico and I dose seachem stability after every WC.  Since this is my 1st pico I am a total noobie however, so we shall see.