How Do You Know When Trace Elements Are Low?

[Thrassian Atoll]

How do you know when trace elements such as iron, potassium, iodine are low?  I don't beleive there are test kits for these are there?  

 

The big 3, Calcium, Alkalinity and Magnesium can get replenished with water changes but when you have a lot of SPS dosing is pretty much mandatory with those.  If I didn't dose those and only relied on weekly water changes my calcium and Alkalinity would be really low.  

 

So if I have to dose Alkalinity and calcium, would those other trace elements slowly drop to below the amount for a healthy reef?   I know they make products to replenish these, but if you can't test for them, it's hard to really know how your balance is.  

 

Would it be recommended to do a really large water change ever so often to replenish these trace elements?   Are these elements absorbed by corals too slow to matter?

[1967type1]

It depends on your load of your tank on how fast those trace elements are used up. For systems with such large demand for calc and alk I could imagine that in your case that they are being used. I would like to know more about your tank. It never hurts to do water changes in most cases but if everything is going well in your tank I wouldnt mess with much to quickly.

[Thrassian Atoll]

22 minutes ago, 1967type1 said:

It depends on your load of your tank on how fast those trace elements are used up. For systems with such large demand for calc and alk I could imagine that in your case that they are being used. I would like to know more about your tank. It never hurts to do water changes in most cases but if everything is going well in your tank I wouldnt mess with much to quickly.

 

I think I am good right now.  This is more of a question for down the road when all of my sps start growing out.  I have a 25 IM Lagoon that has roughly 20 sps pieces so far.  I do 4ish gallon water changes per week and dose 16 ml of calcium and alkalinity of B Ionic 2 part each day.  I keep my alk around 8.5 and calcium around 420ish.

 

Thats about to go up too because I just added 7 more acro frags and will add 5 more next week.

[CronicReefer]

Iron, potassium, and iodine all have tests available but I've never really seen a need to dose any of these. Your iron will only become depleted if you have an overabundance of macro algaes and potassium and iodine stay consistent with water changes from my testing experience.

[seabass]

B-Ionic contains trace elements.  You'll also get some from feeding.  And like stated, water changes will also help.  I don't really feel that most people ever have the need to dose separate trace elements.

 

You often find that many supplements include trace elements.  For example, Kent Tech M contains:

Deionized water containing the following elements (as ions): magnesium, chlorine, sulfur, calcium, potassium, bromine, strontium, boron, fluorine, lithium, rubidium, iodine, iron, molybdenum, zinc, nickel, copper, manganese, vanadium, cesium, cobalt, tungsten, selenium, and chromium.

 

[ajm83]

^ Sounds more like a list of impurities than traces!    Zinc and copper...think I'll pass on that, ta

[Nart]

If you are really serious about it... you can look into Triton tests. https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/icp-oes-testing-kit-triton-1.html

I think it's like $40 for 1 test, $140 for 3 test, etc.... You send them your water sample. They run it through their lab grade equipment in Germany and they'll provide you your results for like 32 elements. Some people utilize Triton with their no water change method, it's a very interesting approach to reef keeping which i'll be looking into the near future when I set-up my bigger tank.

[seabass]

47 minutes ago, ajm83 said:

^ Sounds more like a list of impurities than traces!    Zinc and copper...think I'll pass on that, ta

It does, but those are ingredients (trace elements) in our salt mix:  http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1

It usually includes much more than strontium and iodine.

 

[mitten_reef]

To answer the original question, is there test kits available for the 3 trace elements? Yes.

 

https://www.redseafish.com/coral-coloration-program/coral-colors-pro-test-kit/

 

Have I used it? No. But I just thought to share. 

[Thrassian Atoll]

Thanks everyone!  I didn't know they made those!  I will get the test kits down the road to just to check them out.

 

 I have heard of the Triton method but haven't looked into it a whole lot.  I wonder how the price equates in the long run to getting everything tested and dosing for everything but not doing water changes?  

 

I didnt realize that 2 parts had trace elements in them.  That's good to know.  Thanks!

[ajm83]

2 hours ago, seabass said:

It does, but those are ingredients (trace elements) in our salt mix:  http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1

It usually includes much more than strontium and iodine.

 

Sorry seabass, I didn't mean to diss your product! I'm dealing with copper and zinc problems at the moment, so it kinda jumped out of the page at me. 

[seabass]

No problem, I don't use the product (or B-Ionic either).  I was just using them as examples of replenishing trace elements.  IMO, water changes and feeding are adequate.  It's not the presence of these elements, but the concentration that makes them a problem.  And as this topic suggests, most people don't test for them, so dosing could be doing more harm than good.

[Thrassian Atoll]

Isn't copper impossible to test for?  I thought I read that if copper shows up on your test kit, it would be through the roof reef tank wise. Meaning that you can still have way too high of copper, even though it hasn't shown anything on your test kit.

[seabass]

Salifert's copper test can detect levels as low as 0.05ppm.  However, these kits are mainly used when using copper based meds in a hospital tank.  Normally copper isn't added to a reef tank in a high enough concentration to be a problem (making testing mostly unnecessary).

 

As a reference, natural seawater contains about 0.000254 ppm of copper, while some salt mixes may have more than 0.1 ppm of copper.

 Source: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/rs/feature/

 Note: This is just an illustration, as salt mix formulations do change from time to time (so these figures may or may not be accurate today).

[RayWhisperer]

On 10/19/2017 at 12:23 AM, TILTON said:

 

I think I am good right now.  This is more of a question for down the road when all of my sps start growing out.  I have a 25 IM Lagoon that has roughly 20 sps pieces so far.  I do 4ish gallon water changes per week and dose 16 ml of calcium and alkalinity of B Ionic 2 part each day.  I keep my alk around 8.5 and calcium around 420ish.

 

Thats about to go up too because I just added 7 more acro frags and will add 5 more next week.

16 ml? Something isn't right here. There is no way (judging by the wording of your post) you need that much 2 part.

[mitten_reef]

14 minutes ago, RayWhisperer said:

16 ml? Something isn't right here. There is no way (judging by the wording of your post) you need that much 2 part.

At least I’m not the only one thinking that was a bit high.

But I had chalked that up to different products come in different concentrations; therefore, different dosing quantities. I’m already having a minor oops with my tank, tried dosing the same amounts as before but from a different brand (without checking ?). 

[Thrassian Atoll]

36 minutes ago, RayWhisperer said:

16 ml? Something isn't right here. There is no way (judging by the wording of your post) you need that much 2 part.

 

Thats what it's at.  I have a lot of sps already and coraline is starting to form on my rocks.  I check alk and calcium every other day.  Red Sea for calcium and Hanna for alk.  I do my logs in the apex.   Both calcium and alk are the B ionic 2 part gallons that were diluted 50:50 with water.  I don't see any precipitation on the back walls or anything in the water column.  

 

 

 

 

[RayWhisperer]

I'm not doubting your levels, or what you have. I'm only saying there is no way you should be dosing 16 ml of 2 part every day. Looking at your tank only verifies that. You simply don't have enough calcifying organisms to warrant that amount. 

 

I'm not super into the chemistry, or the mathematics areas of reef keeping. I'm not going to be able to give you a magic number that will work, or get you very close. However, I'd be surprised if your system actually used more than 2 to 3 ml daily. I'd actually be kind of shocked if you even needed 1.6 ml.

 

Mill do some digging tonight. I read an article years ago that went into depth about dosing. I'll try and find it for you. Basically, most people dose way more than is required, was the gist of it. 

 

Just as an example, I had a 40 br with more sps, and a 6" squammosa that I used about 3.something ml daily on. It was long ago, so I don't remember exact numbers. Granted, the higher water volume would mean lighter consumption of the overall amount. However, it would also mean it would require more product (2 part, kalk, calcium reactor effluent) to bring it back to proper levels.

 

ill see what I can find for you.

 

[Thrassian Atoll]

2 hours ago, RayWhisperer said:

I'm not doubting your levels, or what you have. I'm only saying there is no way you should be dosing 16 ml of 2 part every day. Looking at your tank only verifies that. You simply don't have enough calcifying organisms to warrant that amount. 

 

I'm not super into the chemistry, or the mathematics areas of reef keeping. I'm not going to be able to give you a magic number that will work, or get you very close. However, I'd be surprised if your system actually used more than 2 to 3 ml daily. I'd actually be kind of shocked if you even needed 1.6 ml.

 

Mill do some digging tonight. I read an article years ago that went into depth about dosing. I'll try and find it for you. Basically, most people dose way more than is required, was the gist of it. 

 

Just as an example, I had a 40 br with more sps, and a 6" squammosa that I used about 3.something ml daily on. It was long ago, so I don't remember exact numbers. Granted, the higher water volume would mean lighter consumption of the overall amount. However, it would also mean it would require more product (2 part, kalk, calcium reactor effluent) to bring it back to proper levels.

 

ill see what I can find for you.

 

Definitely!  If I shouldn't be or don't have to dose this much, I definitely do not want to.  My numbers drop from 8.5 alk to 7 in a few days without dosing.  I am trying to keep it right around 8.5.  That's what my DD h2ocean mixes at.  You could be ablsoutely right, I just don't know what the reason could be that my consumption is really high from what I can see and not see.

 

 I think I saw too somewhere that new tanks numbers get out of whack really easy or consume a lot of stuff?  I don't know.  If you find anything, or anybody else, let me know.  I am open for anything.  This is my first sps dominant tank and first time dosing.

[Thrassian Atoll]

Here are my calcium and alkalinity readings over the past month.

[RayWhisperer]

Not home, so I haven't searched yet. However, if it takes 2 days to drop 1.5 dkh on a volume of, say, 20ish gallons, you are dosing way beyond what you should be. However, it seems I was also incorrect. By the 2 part calculator, you should need about 6.6 or 6.7 ml of b ionic. Seems high to me, but it has been a long time since I've used 2 part.

https://www.marinedepot.com/md_educationcenter_calculators_reef_chemistry_calculator.html

[Thrassian Atoll]

Just counted.  I have 40 sps frags, one being a 5"x5" thick monti.  Couple mini colonies.  Also have a 14 head candy cane.  

[Thrassian Atoll]

19 minutes ago, RayWhisperer said:

Not home, so I haven't searched yet. However, if it takes 2 days to drop 1.5 dkh on a volume of, say, 20ish gallons, you are dosing way beyond what you should be. However, it seems I was also incorrect. By the 2 part calculator, you should need about 6.6 or 6.7 ml of b ionic. Seems high to me, but it has been a long time since I've used 2 part.

https://www.marinedepot.com/md_educationcenter_calculators_reef_chemistry_calculator.html

Thanks for the help.  I'll look into it some more as well when I get home from work.  I wonder if it would hurt to not dose for a couple of days and see how low it gets?  Doesn't sound like it would be a good thing.  I really want to see how much it drops daily.  It's been a while since I have not dosed to keep the numbers up.

[RayWhisperer]

Salt is fairly cheap. Try a large volume water change, test it, test again the next day. The large water change should get you close to normal salt concentrations. Then you'll see the amount that is consumed in 24 hours. 10 gallons of SW probably wouldn't amount to more than $2 to $3 dollars in cost if you make it all yourself. If you're buying RODI it'll cost more. That's about half your volume. Pretty cheap test, IMO.

[Thrassian Atoll]

1 hour ago, RayWhisperer said:

Salt is fairly cheap. Try a large volume water change, test it, test again the next day. The large water change should get you close to normal salt concentrations. Then you'll see the amount that is consumed in 24 hours. 10 gallons of SW probably wouldn't amount to more than $2 to $3 dollars in cost if you make it all yourself. If you're buying RODI it'll cost more. That's about half your volume. Pretty cheap test, IMO.

I will do that Monday.  I do 20-25% weekly already anyways so doing 10 gallons is not a big deal.  I'll report back here with the start and 24 hour end numbers for calcium alkalinity and magnesium.  I'll test alkalinity with the Red Sea and Hanna kit.