What am I battling here?? Diatoms, Dinos.... Driving me bonkers

[Okinawa_Reefer]

So out of curiousity I flipped on the white lights this morning and it looks like the algae (or whatever it is) doesn't completely go away at night but you can see that there a significant differenc. 

[Clown79]

When i started using purigen, corrected flow, cleaned everything,  mine went away.

 

I had the exact same looking algae on my sand.

 

It recently came back after my old powerhead had issues. Changed powerhead, changed purigen for new batch, all gone.

[Okinawa_Reefer]

1 minute ago, Clown79 said:

When i started using purigen, corrected flow, cleaned everything,  mine went away.

 

I had the exact same looking algae on my sand.

 

It recently came back after my old powerhead had issues. Changed powerhead, changed purigen for new batch, all gone.

I've been running purigen since the tank had finished cycling. I've also been playing with flow and had turned my mp-10 up quite a bit as you can see the sand has mound up in the middle from the flow bouncing off the glass across the way. I level that sand out about once a week (so stirring the sand a bit). 

 

Is it possible for water to have 0 TDS but still have silicates? I ask because I bought my 5 stage BRS RODI used and I put all new filters in it with the exception of the RO membrane. So I actually have no idea how old that RO membrane was. I actually just got my new RO membrane in yesterday as I bought it hoping that it will help. I'll get some RODI water going and do another water change this weekend. 

[seabass]

You can tell when your RO membrane is exhausted by checking the rejection rate.  First check the TDS of your tap water, then check the TDS of the water coming from your RO membrane.  If the membrane isn't filtering out the specified percentage of TDS, then it needs replacing.  Your DI resin will probably do more to remove all silicate from the final product water.

 

If the algae feels slimy, it might not be diatoms.  I know that Chemiclean didn't get rid of it, but I kind of suspect cyano.  It's likely that what you have is similar to what Clown79 had (no diatoms).  Sometimes it's hard to ID these things.  However, reduced dissolved organics (through chemical filtration), increased organic export (through maintenance, flow, and mechanical filtration), and a good cleanup crew should help.

[Okinawa_Reefer]

Gotcha. I'll give it a feel tonight when I get home from work to see if it's slimey at all. I've religiously done 5-10 gallon water changes once a week on Saturday. Should I be doing them more frequently?

[seabass]

It might not be the volume of water, so much as how much detritus you export during these water changes.  We often recommend using a turkey baster to blast of any detritus from your bare rock.  Then, when you are doing your water change, siphon out the detritus (cyano, diatoms, whatever) from the top of the sand bed.

 

Like I said, water changes are just a piece of the puzzle.  You might want to beef up your cleanup crew also.  You may even choose to replace your chemical media more frequently.

[Orangutran]

I have the exact same thing in my tank as per OP and Okinawa_Reefer. I've had it for a good 6 months now, and I'll admit I have battling it half heartedly, so that may be the reason it's sticking around. At the moment, I am running a UV in the display coupled with lights out (on day 2). Lets see how it goes. From a thread in R2R, apparently the dino cells become free flowing at night, so the UV is supposed to neutralize them.

 

I tried the UV in the sump for 2 weeks with limited effectiveness. 

 

Are you guys winning the battle?

[seabass]

1 hour ago, Orangutran said:

At the moment, I am running a UV in the display coupled with lights out (on day 2). Lets see how it goes. From a thread in R2R, apparently the dino cells become free flowing at night, so the UV is supposed to neutralize them.

If it is Dinos, UV sterilization alone will only improve the situation.  Not all of them will pass through the sterilizer.  It also takes a powerful UV system.  It's probably best used in conjunction with a blackout.  However, solving a dinos problem is not normally that straight forward.

[Orangutran]

8 minutes ago, seabass said:

If it is Dinos, UV sterilization alone will only improve the situation.  Not all of them will pass through the sterilizer.  It also takes a powerful UV system.  It's probably best used in conjunction with a blackout.  However, solving a dinos problem is not normally that straight forward.

Boo... so what else is needed to eradicate them? Should I peroxide at the same time? Add bacteria? Already have the blackout going, ok, not complete blackout, but lights out.

[seabass]

22 minutes ago, Orangutran said:

Boo... so what else is needed to eradicate them?

Yeah, well that's the question.  Some people will say there is no proven way to eradicate them.  People that report success usually employ a series of remedies (usually in combination with a total blackout).  I wish I could tell you what is required.  There are numerous threads about it: https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Anano-reef.com+dinoflagellates&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=site%3Anano-reef.com+dinoflagellates&sc=0-34&sk=&cvid=385FF42D6DED4CAD8CB419C0D94EDEFC

[Orangutran]

Gonna leave this here...

 

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

 

This could be the answer we are looking for in controlling dinos. My system definitely has a nutrient imbalance (high nitrates and low phosphate) so I just took my GFO offline and will look into dosing PO4. 

 

 

[seabass]

Hmm... I'll have to read that thread.  At first, I'm very skeptical as I had both high phosphate, and dinos.

 

 

Edit: @Orangutran, I just skimmed some of the posts.  It's a long thread (I actually didn't read that much).  I sort of came away from it with the idea that other blooms may help combat  (or out compete) dinos.  So fueling these other blooms helps (and not the nutrients themselves).  Lack of biodiversity is the bigger factor here.  Also, iron could potentially be a dino trigger.  Introducing some biodiversity might help (like some sand from a healthy tank).  However, trying to starve dinos may harm some of the beneficial diversity more than the dinos (which is why, I believe, they recommend detectable levels of both nitrate and phosphate).

 

Somebody please let me know if I misstated what that R2R thread is discussing.  Thanks.

[Orangutran]

On 9/9/2017 at 1:06 PM, seabass said:

Hmm... I'll have to read that thread.  At first, I'm very skeptical as I had both high phosphate, and dinos.

 

 

Edit: @Orangutran, I just skimmed some of the posts.  It's a long thread (I actually didn't read that much).  I sort of came away from it with the idea that other blooms may help combat  (or out compete) dinos.  So fueling these other blooms helps (and not the nutrients themselves).  Lack of biodiversity is the bigger factor here.  Also, iron could potentially be a dino trigger.  Introducing some biodiversity might help (like some sand from a healthy tank).  However, trying to starve dinos may harm some of the beneficial diversity more than the dinos (which is why, I believe, they recommend detectable levels of both nitrate and phosphate).

 

Somebody please let me know if I misstated what that R2R thread is discussing.  Thanks.

I'm only on page 15 myself in that thread, and so far, it's exactly what you summarized. 

 

Specific to you @seabass, perhaps having too much PO4 is also a problem? 

 

Since discovering that thread a few days ago, I have fed frozen everyday, and just managed to get some seachem flourish (to add PO4) and chaeto to control nutrients in a balanced way (my nitrates are 25-50, but phosphates are undetectable in my tank). Also added some rock rubble from the LFS not long ago to reseed my critters/bacteria. I may have killed my biodiversity when I used vibrant to rid the diatoms, which caused the dino bloom shortly thereafter. 

[seabass]

2 minutes ago, Orangutran said:

Specific to you @seabass, perhaps having too much PO4 is also a problem? 

That's always been a prevailing theory as to a potential contributor.  However, it may now seem, that not having other beneficial life which can utilize this nutrient (a combination of high nutrients/organics with low bio-diversity), might be a bigger factor.  This idea is new to me, but makes sense.  It also describes the tank I had with dinos.

[p-rizzle]

Well... It looks like the diatoms finally cleared up! now I'm getting a green algae, that is sometimes hard, on the glass. Much more manageable, though. The crew has cleared the rocks of the nuisance algae.... Speaking of nuisance, I have 4 antipasta anemones that need tending to.

 

Quick question.. My toadstool was fully open this morning as opposed to the state he is in the photo. I forgot to turn my additional power head on. Once I did, he reverted to his regular position, which is what you see. Does he like or dislike  the additional flow?

 

Thanks for all of the help.

 

 

[seabass]

I think in general they like moderate flow.  However, it should also do fine with stronger flow.  I wouldn't consider moving it and it looks pretty healthy to me.

[mcarroll]

On 9/9/2017 at 12:11 PM, Orangutran said:

Gonna leave this here...

 

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-–-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

 

This could be the answer we are looking for in controlling dinos. My system definitely has a nutrient imbalance (high nitrates and low phosphate) so I just took my GFO offline and will look into dosing PO4. 

 

 

Low phosphates is a common trigger, but low-N can as well.   Carbon dosing and using dead-rock are two of the most common contributing factors.

 

In a nutshelll...

• Dino's are terrible swimmers, really susceptible to light damage....these are what they use mucus for
• Muccus gives them direct shielding form light
• It also allows them to sink rather than being carried out to see on ocean currents.
• The toxins in mucus give them a shield from predation and grazing
• Dino's are also terrible at uptake of nutrients (amazing how dominant they can be since they're terrible at so much, right?)  
• When concentrations of critical nutrients like N and P get below their usable threshold, they starve.  
• Starving provokes them into this blooming behavior
• When blooming (only time you see them!) they reroute productivity from photosynthesis into mucus and toxin production and switch to phagotrophy (eating particles, other microbes, etc) for sustenance.
• There's always bacteria around, of course, so that's a good fod source to target.  
• If you are someone who saturates your tank with organic carbon (vodka, vinegar, et al), then there's a lot of bacteria around.  Bonus to the dino bloom. 

 

Here's where it gets crazy....cuz dino's are taking control of your tank:

• Dino's that we get have a "skeleton" called a theca.  
• As the dino bloom goes on and leaves behind more and more expired, dead cells, those theca start to accumulate in the substrate.
• These theca have a carbon ratio of like 3000:1 (any gardener composters here?) so it takes A TON of N and P to break them down.  
• Bacteria are VERY GOOD at using nutrients down to VERY LOW levels....lower than most other microbes can compete with.
• Here's where the whole tank suffers....
• The dino's are cranking out toxic mucus.  
• The bacteria are sucking N and P levels down (limited by whichever nutrient runs out first.....that was PO4 for you).
• Higher animals and other microbes will start to suffer from both.
• Pods are usually first though sometimes they go unnoticed...they get lazy or sleepy looking, or maybe even vanish altogether...when you notice "hey I used to have pods...what's this weird algae?"
• Snails are usually next...same sleepy symptoms....they may not be able to hold onto the glass anymore....(typically it doesn't get further than that cuz snails are big enough to easily notice).
• These pods and snails all die if left unchecked, and release nutrients to the bacteria breaking them down.
• That bacteria becomes more dino food AND keeps the N and P levels buried so nothing else will be able to bloom or grow.

 

(I'll be starting a dino thread here soon.....that post was a little stream of conscious so feel free to tag or PM me with any questions in the mean time.)

 

[mcarroll]

Forgot to mention it's a good idea to do some kind of test to assure you have dino's.....some other things can look similar.....and you can also have dino's co-blooming with something else...cyano is very common.

 

The quickest test is just to put a sample into a vial, shake it up so the sample is broken down into "dust" if possible.  Then leave the sample under a light to see if they respond by re-clumping into a snotty mass.  Only dino's will do that.

[Orangutran]

8 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Low phosphates is a common trigger, but low-N can as well.   Carbon dosing and using dead-rock are two of the most common contributing factors.

 

In a nutshelll...

• Dino's are terrible swimmers, really susceptible to light damage....these are what they use mucus for
• Muccus gives them direct shielding form light
• It also allows them to sink rather than being carried out to see on ocean currents.
• The toxins in mucus give them a shield from predation and grazing
• Dino's are also terrible at uptake of nutrients (amazing how dominant they can be since they're terrible at so much, right?)  
• When concentrations of critical nutrients like N and P get below their usable threshold, they starve.  
• Starving provokes them into this blooming behavior
• When blooming (only time you see them!) they reroute productivity from photosynthesis into mucus and toxin production and switch to phagotrophy (eating particles, other microbes, etc) for sustenance.
• There's always bacteria around, of course, so that's a good fod source to target.  
• If you are someone who saturates your tank with organic carbon (vodka, vinegar, et al), then there's a lot of bacteria around.  Bonus to the dino bloom. 

 

Here's where it gets crazy....cuz dino's are taking control of your tank:

• Dino's that we get have a "skeleton" called a theca.  
• As the dino bloom goes on and leaves behind more and more expired, dead cells, those theca start to accumulate in the substrate.
• These theca have a carbon ratio of like 3000:1 (any gardener composters here?) so it takes A TON of N and P to break them down.  
• Bacteria are VERY GOOD at using nutrients down to VERY LOW levels....lower than most other microbes can compete with.
• Here's where the whole tank suffers....
• The dino's are cranking out toxic mucus.  
• The bacteria are sucking N and P levels down (limited by whichever nutrient runs out first.....that was PO4 for you).
• Higher animals and other microbes will start to suffer from both.
• Pods are usually first though sometimes they go unnoticed...they get lazy or sleepy looking, or maybe even vanish altogether...when you notice "hey I used to have pods...what's this weird algae?"
• Snails are usually next...same sleepy symptoms....they may not be able to hold onto the glass anymore....(typically it doesn't get further than that cuz snails are big enough to easily notice).
• These pods and snails all die if left unchecked, and release nutrients to the bacteria breaking them down.
• That bacteria becomes more dino food AND keeps the N and P levels buried so nothing else will be able to bloom or grow.

 

(I'll be starting a dino thread here soon.....that post was a little stream of conscious so feel free to tag or PM me with any questions in the mean time.)

 

Thanks @mcarroll!! This post is like "Dinos for Dummies" Glad you're also on N-R to spread the knowledge.

[Five.five-six]

On 1/27/2018 at 8:33 AM, p-rizzle said:

Well... It looks like the diatoms finally cleared up! now I'm getting a green algae, that is sometimes hard, on the glass. Much more manageable, though. The crew has cleared the rocks of the nuisance algae.... Speaking of nuisance, I have 4 antipasta anemones that need tending to.

 

Quick question.. My toadstool was fully open this morning as opposed to the state he is in the photo. I forgot to turn my additional power head on. Once I did, he reverted to his regular position, which is what you see. Does he like or dislike  the additional flow?

 

Thanks for all of the help.

 

 

I have to say, your tank looks great!